BillsObserver Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 If we're going to be fair Thoner, it should be mentioned that there were three other "nose tackle type" players that were being harped upon last year at this time and leading up to the draft: Dan Williams Terrence Cody Cam Thomas Williams (26th overall) did very little on a very bad Arizona Cardinals defense. He was schooled this year, looking lost most of the season. Cody (57th overall and a TSW favorite) saw very few snaps after failing his conditioning test as a rookie with the Baltimore Ravens. Thomas (146th overall) did have two sacks…among his 5 total tackles. Troup (41st overall) had as good if not a better year than any of the other top nose tackle prospects. Troup also is listed at 315 pounds but played near 350 earlier in his college career. He took up running to slim down and increase his endurance because he didn't want to be a fat piece of poop. He's a dedicated athlete. If he needs to bulk up, I'm sure he will. As for Troup's strength, probably he'll need to increase his lower body strength but at the combine he had 34 bench presses which is an excellent number. Troup was a 3.5 year starter in college and a team captain. I have zero concerns that this guy will become a good starter on this team…regardless of what position he plays. A voice of reason. Thank you
shoretalk Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 With all of the talk about Spiller I have yet to see anyone mention our 2nd round pick Torrell Troup. I was hoping that Nix and co may have found a diamond in the rough on this guy but I am not confident in what I have seen so far. Sure he is a young rookie and is going up against NFL offensive lineman now but I honestly cannot think of one good play he turned in for us and he did receive a significant amount of snaps. Every time I focused on him during a game I noticed him getting blown back off the line by one offensive lineman.. It seemed he would just try to bull rush the lineman head on and would fail miserably at it. When he was drafted the hope would be he would be a big space-eater that demands two lineman but I honestly don't know if he has the athletic ability to do so. Hopefully he proves me wrong.. Thoughts? This was his ROOKIE SEASON!!! He showed some signs of being decent and showed some signs that veteran offensive linemen could take advantage of him. It would have been nice to see him play a little more but we had a Pro Bowl player named Williams who we needed in the game. I can't remember what McCargo did his rookie year but elsewhere on this board the 'seasoned veteran' McCargo's statistics have been displayed. In addition, a certain Penn State lineman I am sure did not come close to Troup's contributions and he was picked in ROUND #1. So, take a deep breath ... let's see if Troup works out during the off season, hits the film room, and works to be a better on the DL. By this time next year we should have a better and more accurate sense of this draft pick!
Dan Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 It's stupid to determine if a player is good or not after one season though. One season? Most posters here can determine if a player is good after one OTA!
Koufax Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 We have very high expectations and we should, but I agree with San Jose on just about everything, and I think we have to stop trying to run out of town everybody after a rookie year. I would love some rookie impact and sure hope we get some out of #3, but I fully expect Spiller, Troup, and Carrington to be valuable players over our next five seasons, and not at all in the Maybin/McCargo mold. My concern is about his role and where and when he will fit in in the 4-3/3-4 hybrid. I think there is plenty of room, but on draft day the thought was that he would be our big 3-4 nose tackle, and that seems less likely at the moment, and we know Kyle is an every down type star for us now, so it will be up to Chan to try to figure out the best utilization of the guys, and up to Troup to get stronger and smarter and better in his second year.
Dorkington Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Mostly a bust like all of our other high draft picks lately.
Bob in STL Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 If we're going to be fair Thoner, it should be mentioned that there were three other "nose tackle type" players that were being harped upon last year at this time and leading up to the draft: Dan Williams Terrence Cody Cam Thomas Williams (26th overall) did very little on a very bad Arizona Cardinals defense. He was schooled this year, looking lost most of the season. Cody (57th overall and a TSW favorite) saw very few snaps after failing his conditioning test as a rookie with the Baltimore Ravens. Thomas (146th overall) did have two sacks…among his 5 total tackles. Troup (41st overall) had as good if not a better year than any of the other top nose tackle prospects. Troup also is listed at 315 pounds but played near 350 earlier in his college career. He took up running to slim down and increase his endurance because he didn't want to be a fat piece of poop. He's a dedicated athlete. If he needs to bulk up, I'm sure he will. As for Troup's strength, probably he'll need to increase his lower body strength but at the combine he had 34 bench presses which is an excellent number. Troup was a 3.5 year starter in college and a team captain. I have zero concerns that this guy will become a good starter on this team…regardless of what position he plays. ^ this is the best post in the thread ^ Troup had a good rookie season. Better than his peers in the draft draft. It is typical for a DL to take awhile to develop and play at a higher level. There is tons of evidence out there to prove it. It is not like Troup was a blue chip prospect from a big school that was plugged into a top notch defense. That would be Mr. Cody who by the way was so fat and out of shape he could not get on the field. Troup will be a very good player for us. Carrington is more of a project than Troup. i would also like to add that overall last years NFL draft class seems to be one of the weakest in years. i also have a feeling unlike spiller....Terrell Troupe was NOT the best available player on buddy's board....that he picked the biggest need knowing they were switching to a 3-4 defense. i think they had their hearts set on Tebow. Last years NFL draft class "seems to be" weak? Yet for the Bills this may be a decent draft. We have had way too many poor drafts to endure another bad one. I will agree that both Troup and Carrington were "need picks" driven by coaches the foolish plan to switch to the 3-4 without knowing what little they had in the front seven.
Buffaloed in Pa Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Most big-men need a couple of years of NFL strength training and technique improvement to become good starting players. It is actually pretty rare for DL to make a big impact as rookies. Those that do are the truly exceptional players and I'd venture to say probably rely on speed and quickness as their main weapon, whereas Troup and Carrington are built to be power players. Further, it is just totally unrealistic to think that every 2nd round draft choice is ready to come in and play at a high level as a rookie. You can wish and hope it, but check the last 10 drafts. It is more the exception than the rule where 2nd round picks show up and play like seasoned vets. Exactly.
TPS Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 If we're going to be fair Thoner, it should be mentioned that there were three other "nose tackle type" players that were being harped upon last year at this time and leading up to the draft: Dan Williams Terrence Cody Cam Thomas Williams (26th overall) did very little on a very bad Arizona Cardinals defense. He was schooled this year, looking lost most of the season. Cody (57th overall and a TSW favorite) saw very few snaps after failing his conditioning test as a rookie with the Baltimore Ravens. Thomas (146th overall) did have two sacks…among his 5 total tackles. Troup (41st overall) had as good if not a better year than any of the other top nose tackle prospects. Troup also is listed at 315 pounds but played near 350 earlier in his college career. He took up running to slim down and increase his endurance because he didn't want to be a fat piece of poop. He's a dedicated athlete. If he needs to bulk up, I'm sure he will. As for Troup's strength, probably he'll need to increase his lower body strength but at the combine he had 34 bench presses which is an excellent number. Troup was a 3.5 year starter in college and a team captain. I have zero concerns that this guy will become a good starter on this team…regardless of what position he plays. It is amazing that people declare someone a bust based on their performance in the first year. Troup is learning behind a pro bowl player. He admittedly said he needs to get stronger next year. Given his work ethic, I expect him to be a solid player for years to come. I think if you look at most late 1st rounders and 2nd rounders, they are all learning in the first couple of years. Carrington looks to be a beast. Judge these guys next year.
San-O Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Why is it unrealistic to expect the Bills to draft good players? It isn't, but it IS unrealistic for PTR to be objective about personnel decisions and the draft.
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Actually I think on a bad team it takes longer. If you put him say on the Jets' D-line,if he makes some mistakes the guys around him can hide them Plus as an opposing offesne, you'r more worried about the other guys, there's no one on the Bills D except maybe Williams that you need to worry about. So everyone takes someone one on one. Easy to make a rookie look bad. D linemen seem tto take longer to develop with the exception of a guy whose main job is pass rushing. I recall Bruce Smith having trouble fist few seasons particually against the run. wtf? how the hell is a team as bad as ours taking 2-3 yr projects in the 2nd round?! you're telling me that by the time the second round comes we're already drafting "projects?" then nix and gailey are worse than i thought!
Lurker Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Unrealistic Not TSW? Never, never, never in a million years... Having a guy from UCF (not much different from UB) step into the NFL and make an impact right away is the definition of unrealistic. Check back next spring after an off season of NFL strength training and we'll know more.
Bangarang Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 This fan base has gotten to the point where if a player doesn't win Rookie of the Year or goes to the Pro Bowl in his 1st year then he's a bust. So sad.
Dorkington Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 This fan base has gotten to the point where if a player doesn't win Rookie of the Year or goes to the Pro Bowl in his 1st year then he's a bust. So sad. You're saying Troup has been successful so far? He's been invisible this year. He's a bust so far. Just like Spiller and Maybin. Does that mean their career is over? Nope. Does that mean they can't turn it around next year and do good things? Nope.
Fingon Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Troup outplayed all the NTs taken ahead of him. You guys act like every single Dlineman taken should be Suh in their rookie seasons.
Bangarang Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 You're saying Troup has been successful so far? He's been invisible this year. He's a bust so far. Just like Spiller and Maybin. Does that mean their career is over? Nope. Does that mean they can't turn it around next year and do good things? Nope. How can you possibly label a player a bust after his rookie season and limited playing time? Let me guess, your next argument will be that he got limited playing time because he just isn't good. Nobody is saying he had a successful year either. The rational people are simply saying that it takes players time to develop and to call them a bust for not dominating their rookie year is just ignorant.
Ever Since '86 Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 If we're going to be fair Thoner, it should be mentioned that there were three other "nose tackle type" players that were being harped upon last year at this time and leading up to the draft: Dan Williams Terrence Cody Cam Thomas Williams (26th overall) did very little on a very bad Arizona Cardinals defense. He was schooled this year, looking lost most of the season. Cody (57th overall and a TSW favorite) saw very few snaps after failing his conditioning test as a rookie with the Baltimore Ravens. Thomas (146th overall) did have two sacks…among his 5 total tackles. Troup (41st overall) had as good if not a better year than any of the other top nose tackle prospects. Troup also is listed at 315 pounds but played near 350 earlier in his college career. He took up running to slim down and increase his endurance because he didn't want to be a fat piece of poop. He's a dedicated athlete. If he needs to bulk up, I'm sure he will. As for Troup's strength, probably he'll need to increase his lower body strength but at the combine he had 34 bench presses which is an excellent number. Troup was a 3.5 year starter in college and a team captain. I have zero concerns that this guy will become a good starter on this team…regardless of what position he plays.
Dorkington Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 How can you possibly label a player a bust after his rookie season and limited playing time? Let me guess, your next argument will be that he got limited playing time because he just isn't good. Nobody is saying he had a successful year either. The rational people are simply saying that it takes players time to develop and to call them a bust for not dominating their rookie year is just ignorant. Maybe we just use different terminology for the same thing. I expected him and Spiller to be a productive member of the team, neither have been. So... to me that equals bust. Maybe I should use a different word? Either way, that isn't the FINAL label on them. They have plenty of time to turn it around, grow, become better... and quite frankly I hope they do (I even expect it).
colin Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 i dunno, i feel pretty good about troup, carrington, and moats on our d becoming good players. i think we need a couple real studs in there, at least 1 pass rusher and 2 lbs, and obviously upgrading anyone we can would help too. our run d sucks bad and i think it's mainly an LB thing for us.
San-O Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Q: Why do the Bills take a high 2nd round DT pick if they know he won't be getting playing time because he is behind your best D-lineman? It almost sounds like the Bills weren't sure what front ( 3-4 or 4-3 ) they would be playing this year. I'm still not sure what from they are playing.
Fixxxer Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 I agree 100% with the OP. I have been calling Troup a shopping cart all season because of how easy he was pushed around. He didnt get on the field too often so it was easy to watch him on tha majority of his snaps and I can only remember 2 or 3 times he was stout. He was routinely blown out of the hole by the G or pushed into the 2nd level when double teamed. Carrington actually looked very good and I was suprised he wasnt on the field much much more. I was hoping for Grons/Spikes in teh 2nd the entire offseason and never would have expected Clausen/Lamarr Houston falling to us. I wish Troupe was better than he is but I cant see this guy ever manning the Nose. I also am calling schenanigans on the FALSE notion that it takes DLmen a while to adjust. Maybe it takes medicro DLman a while to adjust but not good ones. Look at all the other guys taken last year - they all played and produced. JPP played 10 college games and he didnt have to adjust. Suh was an all pro. Lamarr Houston started for Oak and he went after Troupe. This stinkin freak EXCUSE needs to go. Other teams draft good players and they start right/contribute right away. The Bills draft bad players who cant play. Get used t oit. Lamar Houston might be listed as a DT in the drafthistory page but he played DE for the Raiders, similar to Neal in GB and Odrick in Mia. College players that played inside but in the pros were projected to play DE in a 3-4. Out of the group that people wanted for NT, you can argue Troup had a better year statistically than his peers. Are you going to tell me that Troup can't become stronger and be better and more consistent with hand technique? I guess time will tell. What I like about Troup is that it seems that he will put the work required to be better.
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