Nanker Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 I'll believe in the merits of a progressive tax system when all prices become progressive. Hey - you have more, you pay more, and not just in taxes but for everything you buy because "you can afford to."
Chef Jim Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 I'll believe in the merits of a progressive tax system when all prices become progressive. Hey - you have more, you pay more, and not just in taxes but for everything you buy because "you can afford to." We already do. It's a self induced though. I'll tell you I spend a lot more money on everything now that I have more.
Doc Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Huh? Yeah it is. Simple fact that salaries are too high proportional to all the rest us working slobs out there. How can starting wages in other fields/jobs/profession be going down?... While wages in the health care professional continue to remain high. I know , I know demand... Yet, that is a situation headed for disaster. Then ontop of it, insurance is going up, up, and up outpacing any raises/COLA's people get. Bottom line is that the heatlh professions gotta start working for LESS. As a care giver... Do you get full medical on top of a bloated salary? Last year, my employer (the gov't) and myself paid out over $15,000 in premiums for my family of four... And it is only going up this year. It was going up at the same high rate even BEFORE the HC bill. Somebody has to step up and take a hit an it shouldn't be the people who have been getting fleeced all these years. It is time the health care givers (everybody) make concessions starting from the TOP to the bottom. Highest wage earners to the lowest. Every other worker's lifestyle is changing... So should the health professions. Now don't get me wrong... I don't know how this would get done and how the system would not implode... But there has to be some sort of catalyst to drive the wages of care givers down. I wouldn't mind this whole race-to-the-bottom crap if one important cog in the machine kept pace: Health care. You might want to educate yourself on what care givers (read: doctors) cost in terms of net percentage of total health care costs. Because until you do, you're pissing into the wind and getting drenched.
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 You might want to educate yourself on what care givers (read: doctors) cost in terms of net percentage of total health care costs. Because until you do, you're pissing into the wind and getting drenched. Just answer the questions. I understand your point... But you have to start somewhere. It is more symbolic starting with the doctors on the top. They are the leaders of the system... Not the untouchables in the ivory towers. No one. I mean, the world needs ditch diggers, but probably isn't going to trust one to fix health care. Totally right Tom. Yet, maybe they should.
Jim in Anchorage Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 No one. I mean, the world needs ditch diggers, but probably isn't going to trust one to fix health care. "Ditch diggers" sit in a uphostered chair in the heated cab of a Komatsu pulling levers all day at $50 hour plus OT. Who's smart?
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) "Ditch diggers" sit in a uphostered chair in the heated cab of a Komatsu pulling levers all day at $50 hour plus OT. Who's smart? Deere 4320 for this ditch digger Oh... And it is "operating engineer." Edited January 18, 2011 by ExiledInIllinois
Doc Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Just answer the questions. I understand your point... But you have to start somewhere. It is more symbolic starting with the doctors on the top. They are the leaders of the system... Not the untouchables in the ivory towers. Yes, because the doctors taking less (like say, the annual cut in Medicare reimbursement rates) will entice the other 90% of the equation to start taking less. Or start making Americans take better care of themselves.
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Yes, because the doctors taking less (like say, the annual cut in Medicare reimbursement rates) will entice the other 90% of the equation to start taking less. Or start making Americans take better care of themselves. It sure would! Maybe not better care... That doesn't matter... You still only work so many hours in a day. At least it will bring down the disparity in pay. In all essence... The education system needs to be reformed... We are paying these doctors for their education and to live nicely than the average American. All other industries are taking cuts from competition... Why shouldn't doctors and then on down the line? You are a Doc... How much do you take home a year? Why are you so against taking a pay cut? Anything will help to free up funds if docs do it as a whole. Maybe we can return to a fee for service system with just catastrophic ins? Insurance premiums (especially what I pay and my employer kicks in) are reaching the levels (where mine as well as what the employer kicks in) where I should send it to my own fund. Let me be my own HMO. Health insurance is becoming like the extended warranty they try and sell on a used car many years after the vehicle was bought. It just doesn't make any sense... And even when you do have good insurance, there is always something that isn't covered and they are billing you for that. What gives? Is it becoming a scam?
Peace Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) It sure would! Maybe not better care... That doesn't matter... You still only work so many hours in a day. At least it will bring down the disparity in pay. In all essence... The education system needs to be reformed... We are paying these doctors for their education and to live nicely than the average American. All other industries are taking cuts from competition... Why shouldn't doctors and then on down the line? You are a Doc... How much do you take home a year? Why are you so against taking a pay cut? Anything will help to free up funds if docs do it as a whole. You think doctors are making more today than ever? Wake the eff up Eric. And by the way, let me line up and say, "Pay doctors more money." Want to pay someone less? Try teachers, lawyers, almost all government workers... Doctors maybe serve an important purpose don't you think? And how dare you ask "How much do you take home a year? Why are you so against taking a pay cut?" Why don't you take a pay cut? How about 10 or 20%? Nothing gives you the right to take his money. Edited January 18, 2011 by Peace
jjamie12 Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 The investment banker "chose" his profession because he knows that's where the money is. Capital is like a gas that will fill any open space. If you constrain the flow of capital, the smart people will find a way around it, just like the gas will find an opening to move. If you bottle up that gas, it's only inevitable that you will cause an explosion from all the build up of that gas. So getting back to fair taxation and who benefits more - everyone benefits the same from the infrastructure. The difference is how people chose to utilize that infrastructure for their needs. I don't believe this last piece here to be true at all. It is simply a fact that some public schools are tremendous, and otheres are just plain awful, as one example that two individuals may or may not benefit the same from their 'infrastructure'. Further, above you are starting from the assumption that the janitor 'chose' his profession in the same way that the I-Banker did... Most likely, that janitor (try as he might) wouldn't be able to be an I-Banker, he simply doesn't have the IQ (or whatever) for it -- Isn't that (rightly so, I might add) why they get paid the big $$? Because so few are 'capable'? Unfortunately, there's a segment of the population that feels that the more successful users of that infrastructure should pay a greater proportion of their income/wealth simply because hey made wiser decisions in their lives. So, yes, my argument is that the wealthy are being penalized twice - their entrepreneurial spirit creates the jobs and then their success is penalized. But is that the right policy? Again- You seem to be starting from an: Everyone has an equal shot at everything sort of perspective; I've found that to be not *quite* true. Here's another, very personal, example. My Dad works in a factory, and my Mom is a school nurse. No matter what I do in school, I'm never going to have the network of contacts that, say, a guy who's Dad works as an I-Banker would have. That's not to say that I had NO shot at becoming an I-Banker, it's just reality that I had much less of a chance of becoming a Lord of Finance than someone who's family was more 'in-the-know' than mine. And that's OK, I don't begrudge anyone their their lot in life -- My parents did an awesome job and were able to put me on a nice path in life. I just hope (as everyone does, I think) that I am able to extend those pathways for my kids. I recognize, however, that not everyone is nearly as lucky as I am. Not everyone gets my parents- some get drunks, some get selfish jerks and some other get parents like mine, just with more education and 'bigger', 'more important' jobs -- I was super lucky to have my parents; those people are super-duper lucky. Your last question is the most important, though, for sure. My answer is: I don't know. Our current system certainly isn't the right policy, we both can agree on that. Whatever system we come up with, it should probably be some variation of a flat tax with no deductions. My main point in this thread is to point out that reasonable people can (and have) made reasonable arguments about why we should have a progressive tax system; that the system isn't 'stupid' or 'dumb'; that arguments can be made about why the Progressive system is in place without them being something like "That guy makes more money than me so screw him!" Just to be clear: You certainly have NOT done that in this thread, I find it refreshing that you're willing to engage in the debate. Other folks, though, simply want to believe that *other* ideas are just flat-out wrong and stupid and illogical and make no sense. Sometimes, they're wrong.
jjamie12 Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 No, this is about the phoniness of liberals who love to talk in terms of compassion, fairness, etc....provided it doesn't cost them personally. This guy doesn't make $250k on his own, so he can spare us the "I am willing to make the sacrifice because I am so compassionate" crap. 1. If you really want me to do the math for you, I will. Send me a PM. I will show you exactly how the CMS reimbursement works. After 3 hours, you will leave feeling angry as hell, because you will learn just how badly you are being ripped off by all involved with the scams that are Medicare and Medicaid. -or- you can STFU and take my word for it: your choice. #1 - I won't STFU. Stop being an ass. #2 - Your arrogance is starting to get in the way of your critical thinking. Stop for a minute and think about this: Your math won't tell me anything about how much tax this guy is going to have to pay because, even if you can absolutely NAIL this guy's income, you still don't have nearly enough information to make any sort of case on whether or not he will be caught up in any tax hikes on families making over $250K. Again, maybe his wife is an I-Banker who makes $1.2 Million / year. You don't know.
Doc Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 It sure would! Maybe not better care... That doesn't matter... You still only work so many hours in a day. At least it will bring down the disparity in pay. In all essence... The education system needs to be reformed... We are paying these doctors for their education and to live nicely than the average American. All other industries are taking cuts from competition... Why shouldn't doctors and then on down the line? You are a Doc... How much do you take home a year? Why are you so against taking a pay cut? Anything will help to free up funds if docs do it as a whole. Maybe we can return to a fee for service system with just catastrophic ins? Insurance premiums (especially what I pay and my employer kicks in) are reaching the levels (where mine as well as what the employer kicks in) where I should send it to my own fund. Let me be my own HMO. Health insurance is becoming like the extended warranty they try and sell on a used car many years after the vehicle was bought. It just doesn't make any sense... And even when you do have good insurance, there is always something that isn't covered and they are billing you for that. What gives? Is it becoming a scam? I think a good idea would be for doctors to unionize. That should help bring costs down, eh? You think doctors are making more today than ever? Wake the eff up Eric. And by the way, let me line up and say, "Pay doctors more money." Want to pay someone less? Try teachers, lawyers, almost all government workers... Doctors maybe serve an important purpose don't you think? And how dare you ask "How much do you take home a year? Why are you so against taking a pay cut?" Why don't you take a pay cut? How about 10 or 20%? Nothing gives you the right to take his money. Thanks. And I'd be fine with no further cuts in Medicare/Medicaid.
Peace Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 I think a good idea would be for doctors to unionize. That should help bring costs down, eh? Thanks. And I'd be fine with no further cuts in Medicare/Medicaid. Two of my best friends are surgeons. IF I had to guess, I'd guess they make over 350K/year. And I wouldn't trade my life for theirs EVER. They NEVER stop working. They NEVER stop worrying. They can be called into work at any second, even when they are not on call. Their stress is off the charts. So you know what, they EARN their money. Every cent. And I would prefer the person who had a nice soothing drive in their Mercedes, who is not worried about the mortgage payment and kid's tuition, to be standing over me with the scalpel. Oh, and screw your Medicare reimbursements. Charge me more.
RkFast Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 I love the Left. The working class people who mop floors or are taking their "30 year nap" are those who "arent making enough." But the CEOs and "Captians of Industry" who manage organizations worth billions, with employee numbers in the tens of thousands, and with shareholders all over the world "are making too much." Classic.
GG Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 I don't believe this last piece here to be true at all. It is simply a fact that some public schools are tremendous, and otheres are just plain awful, as one example that two individuals may or may not benefit the same from their 'infrastructure'. Further, above you are starting from the assumption that the janitor 'chose' his profession in the same way that the I-Banker did... Most likely, that janitor (try as he might) wouldn't be able to be an I-Banker, he simply doesn't have the IQ (or whatever) for it -- Isn't that (rightly so, I might add) why they get paid the big $$? Because so few are 'capable'? You're focusing on the end result, which again could be a matter of choice. Bad school districts, bad infrastructure, etc are the result of misallocated resources, which is has been discussed in other topics here. In this one, let's stay on the subject of fair taxation to fund that infrastructure and question what should really be the government's responsibility to provide for its citizens? In that vein, the basic infrastructure should benefit all residents equally. Then it's up to the citizens to determine how effectively the tax dollars are spent. Again- You seem to be starting from an: Everyone has an equal shot at everything sort of perspective; I've found that to be not *quite* true. Here's another, very personal, example. My Dad works in a factory, and my Mom is a school nurse. No matter what I do in school, I'm never going to have the network of contacts that, say, a guy who's Dad works as an I-Banker would have. That's not to say that I had NO shot at becoming an I-Banker, it's just reality that I had much less of a chance of becoming a Lord of Finance than someone who's family was more 'in-the-know' than mine. And that's OK, I don't begrudge anyone their their lot in life -- My parents did an awesome job and were able to put me on a nice path in life. I just hope (as everyone does, I think) that I am able to extend those pathways for my kids. I recognize, however, that not everyone is nearly as lucky as I am. Not everyone gets my parents- some get drunks, some get selfish jerks and some other get parents like mine, just with more education and 'bigger', 'more important' jobs -- I was super lucky to have my parents; those people are super-duper lucky. Again, you're focusing on the end result of a system where private capital supplements government spending to provide better opportunities to some vs others. I don't view this as necessarily a bad thing as long as there are no barriers to that private capital, especially if it's more productive. In your case, you bemoan your upbringing that puts you at a disadvantage to the trust fund kid who rode his Exeter stint to Harvard to the corner office at 200 West Street. But if there is an industry where meritocracy rules more than average, if you are an ambitious bright kid, you can rise far in investment banking. Good luck doing that as an outsider in a union shop.
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 And how dare you ask "How much do you take home a year? Why are you so against taking a pay cut?" Why don't you take a pay cut? How about 10 or 20%? Nothing gives you the right to take his money. I do... And that 10-20% has been eaten up the last 10 years in premiums. Do you get full health or do you have to kick in 30 or so % of your own money. BOTH my employer (Fed) and me are getting fleeced by the system. Yeah I do have the right to ask... I have been taking a "pay cut" every year for a bunch of years... What I have to kick in for health premiums is outpacing my cost of living each year. And this year 2011... That premium is going up again (for the 20th straight year) and there will be no COLA... Zippo, no raise.... Even if there was a modest 1-2% COLA like the previous years it doesn't amount to a hill of beans considering what health is doing. Health care IS the disease... No the cure. So yes... I am not complaining... I am taking a pay cut in all essence... Again, I don't mind... I am doing my part. It is just a matter of time when they actually cut my pay backwards... Then again, I won't mind... As long as others get into the same happy practice. And that means the doctors and health care providers. I am making the same amout of take home money as I did 10-15 years ago... My spending power is less... YET, I do continue to save no matter what! I think a good idea would be for doctors to unionize. That should help bring costs down, eh? HELL no! As much as I am pro-union... Unions are more dysfunctional than the system the doctors are in now! You wanna see a dysfuctional union system, I am in a open shop at work and it is the gov't... It is more bizzare than me!
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) I love the Left. The working class people who mop floors or are taking their "30 year nap" are those who "arent making enough." But the CEOs and "Captians of Industry" who manage organizations worth billions, with employee numbers in the tens of thousands, and with shareholders all over the world "are making too much." Classic. "Aren't making enough" to keep pace with what is going on in the rest of society. There is no "30 year nap" anymore... If I stay in the same job with the Fed, I will be lucky to get out in my mid 60's (they wil probably raise it to 70)... And still only collect 60-70% of my pay in pension... Even know I have been kicking into that pension with my own money the whole time. Imagine what my health premiums will be like when I retire?... I will still have to kick in my own money for that. AND that would be with 40 years in. Laugh if you want... Without the industry I am in... A 60 day closure costs the national and regional economy 20 milion dollars. How much do you think Ford starts out at? About 13-15 bucks an hour. I don't make much more... Even know Jim thinks a union ditch digger/op engineer makes 50 bucks an hour... That is far from the truth for many. I do admit... I make a nice wage considering what I do... I would take considerably less if everybody else did it to help out the gov't. HA! Fat chance... If I take a willful pay cut... I would be the only one left holding the bag! Again... It is not out of the question taking a pay cut... Everything else in society should be throttled back to. It is time for people to take a step back in society from where they came... NOT grow... We can cut back on a lot of luxuries and consumer spending!! Two of my best friends are surgeons. IF I had to guess, I'd guess they make over 350K/year. And I wouldn't trade my life for theirs EVER. They NEVER stop working. They NEVER stop worrying. They can be called into work at any second, even when they are not on call. Their stress is off the charts. So you know what, they EARN their money. Every cent. And I would prefer the person who had a nice soothing drive in their Mercedes, who is not worried about the mortgage payment and kid's tuition, to be standing over me with the scalpel. Oh, and screw your Medicare reimbursements. Charge me more. Totally disagree... Doesn't worry me in the least. I am the opposite. Me, I totally don't care. On another note... You gotta understand that that 350k doesn't just stop at the worrisome doctor... And soothe his/her troubles that they endure. It may very well end up in the hand's of the doctor's loser children that never amount to nothing in society. NOT saying that is bad... But is severely effects the balance in society. I know many will not agree or even get the concept... Yet, I throw it out there. Good luck doing that as an outsider in a union shop. I am trying my best!!! Edited January 20, 2011 by ExiledInIllinois
Doc Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 I do... And that 10-20% has been eaten up the last 10 years in premiums. Do you get full health or do you have to kick in 30 or so % of your own money. BOTH my employer (Fed) and me are getting fleeced by the system. Yeah I do have the right to ask... I have been taking a "pay cut" every year for a bunch of years... What I have to kick in for health premiums is outpacing my cost of living each year. And this year 2011... That premium is going up again (for the 20th straight year) and there will be no COLA... Zippo, no raise.... Even if there was a modest 1-2% COLA like the previous years it doesn't amount to a hill of beans considering what health is doing. Health care IS the disease... No the cure. So yes... I am not complaining... I am taking a pay cut in all essence... Again, I don't mind... I am doing my part. It is just a matter of time when they actually cut my pay backwards... Then again, I won't mind... As long as others get into the same happy practice. And that means the doctors and health care providers. I am making the same amout of take home money as I did 10-15 years ago... My spending power is less... YET, I do continue to save no matter what! HELL no! As much as I am pro-union... Unions are more dysfunctional than the system the doctors are in now! You wanna see a dysfuctional union system, I am in a open shop at work and it is the gov't... It is more bizzare than me! What, you think doctors get free health care and don't have to pay (rising) health insurance premiums? At best I might get professional courtesy, but that's about it. What I did was what you sort-of suggested, i.e. getting a high-deductible plan with an HSA. I have a $5,000 individual/$10,000 family deductible and fund the HSA to the max (~$6,000). I figure I saved close to $10,000 annually (I barely touched the HSA). I also keep myself in good shape.
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 21, 2011 Posted January 21, 2011 What, you think doctors get free health care and don't have to pay (rising) health insurance premiums? At best I might get professional courtesy, but that's about it. What I did was what you sort-of suggested, i.e. getting a high-deductible plan with an HSA. I have a $5,000 individual/$10,000 family deductible and fund the HSA to the max (~$6,000). I figure I saved close to $10,000 annually (I barely touched the HSA). I also keep myself in good shape. I wouldn't mind if I wasn't making a 10th of doctor's salary! It cuts into necessities, not luxuries. Hence why we have a progressive tax system.
IDBillzFan Posted January 21, 2011 Posted January 21, 2011 I wouldn't mind if I wasn't making a 10th of doctor's salary! It cuts into necessities, not luxuries. Hence why we have a progressive tax system. Just out of curiosity; whose fault is it that you make a 10th of a doctor's salary?
Recommended Posts