one of you "WE GOTTA LOSE THIS WEEK!" people

[jester43]

Well actually your outlook is far more bleak and grim. You're essentially saying that this team will never improve until Ralph dies -- since we know that's the only way he's going to give up control. And thus, you just want to win because no matter who the Bills pick in April, the team will still suck and you want to feel good for just one more Sunday.

 

That's way worse than hoping for a loss in a meaningless game. There's nothing that can be improved with a win since momentum does not carry over from season to season. There's no hope for a playoff birth. There's no hope for a winning record. There's no hope for a winning record within the division even. There's NOTHING to be gained by a win for the Bills as an organization this weekend. There's only something for the fans who refuse to see, or perhaps don't care to see, the big picture.

 

Still, your viewpoint is way more grim and far more of a loser mentality. I'm not saying you're wrong. Hell, I think those same thoughts every day. Still, I can't come to grips with it. Apparently you can. You have deemed it impossible for this team to turn a corner even with Ralph at the helm. I haven't. You are seemingly content with a few wins every year, a few glimmers of hope splashed in for good measure. I'm not. See, I just can't admit that it's impossible for this team to turn a corner. With Ralph, even Nix and Modrak -- hell, even with Fitz! There's still hope.

 

Getting SEVEN higher draft picks (or however many total picks we have) provides even more of a foundation for realistic hope than simply winning one meaningless game against the Jets. A rivalry that's more dead than Disco. Yeah, I said that cheesy line in an effort to make a point ... (did you buy that? whew)

 

The fans that want a win on Sunday are short sighted. They are not seeing the forest through the trees. While there's no guarantee that these higher draft picks will improve the long term future of this team, there's a far greater chance of these picks doing just that than there is of a meaningless win at the end of a miserable season. Instead, all a win guarantees is momentary satisfaction for those short sighted fan's. Immediate gratification has its benefits and is certainly a big part of being a fan. But it's fleeting.

 

That doesn't mean I expect the Bills to come out and try to lose on purpose. They won't and shouldn't. The players are playing for their own jobs. Coaches too. There's no way they come out with anything but the best they can muster. And if they win, they win. I won't celebrate it for more than 24 hours because it means nothing in the grand scheme of trying to elevate this proud franchise out of the utter sh*thole it has been mired in for over a decade.

 

So you can keep your grim thoughts. I'll stick with the far more optimistic approach.

 

Go Bills!

that quote about MY loser mentality (the one YOU agree with, but it's MY loser mentality...ok yeah, RIGHT) really takes the cake. if you can naively believe that ralph and the beancounters can suddenly build a winning team then i hope santa brought you something nice this year. it's not IMPOSSIBLE for the team to turn a corner because, after all, ralph lucked into a few good teams in between all the sucking. we all know that. but it's insane to think these guys are likely to build a winner suddenly because we picked 2nd or 3rd instead of 8th. there is not one reason to believe that. and yeah i do think the bills will be horrible until ralph dies. i'm not alone and the evidence is on MY side, not yours.

 

i have no problem with playing a few backups, but by your logic we should have been giving up and hoping to lose by the end of october...since that was the point we were eliminated from the playoffs. i want to send jets fans home mad. that would be the more "optimistic" view :lol:

 

please show me evidence that there is "far greater" chance of the bills turning around with a top 3 pick as opposed to a 4 or 6 or 8. i posted the link to the draft history to show you dingleberries that that evidence is spotty at best. why is that so hard to understand?

[8-8 Forever?]

please go through the nfl draft history for the past 10-12 years and identify all the top three picks (because remember, we just HAVE TO HAVE A TOP 3 PICK THIS YEAR OR WE'LL NEVER BE GOOD!!) who have proven to be studs and transformed bad teams into good ones. i did notice ryan was taken 3rd by the falcons in '08, so there is one check in your column. but as i scroll back through those lists, i see mostly guys who were drafted by sucky teams who have continued to suck. which supports my view that we don't have to have a top3 pick to turn this team around...what we need is guys who can draft.

 

meanwhile there are as many productive players in the 4-8 spots, where we'll wind up drafting if OMYGOD SHEER AND UTTER DISASTER STRIKES and we win sunday.

 

link:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?season=2009&round=round1

 

<edited for content> Beerball

sorry pal, we need to lose this week. treat it like a preseason game. get carrington, pears, chandler, troup, et al lots of reps. gather film on these guys. Whether we win or lose this game will be quickly forgotten. this season ended two months ago. the earlier we draft the better, especially in the later rounds. take it out of modraks hands. you draft #3 you get someone really good no matter how bad your FO is.

[Albany,n.y.]

i want to send jets fans home mad. that would be the more "optimistic" view :lol:

This one statement here indicates you really don't get things.

 

The Jets fans UNDERSTAND the situation. They know that it doesn't matter if they win or lose because regardless of what happens THEY'RE ALREADY IN THE PLAYOFFS.

 

Only a Jet fan with a myopic view, who like you craves instant gratification without looking at the bigger picture, would go home mad. 99.9% of Jets fans are, just like their coach, looking to next week's playoff game & could care less if their 2nd & 3rd stringers lose to the Bills A team. The Jets fans get it & wouldn't go home mad, you just don't get it & I guess you never will.

 

So keep that attitude that we'll never get better and settle for those 4-7 weeks a year out of 16 when you can feel good. I'd rather lose today & win tomorrow because unlike losers like you, I am optimistic that with the right players chosen someday soon we can compete for a championship. However, it starts with impact players. The surer ones are gone sooner rather than later and if 1 loss can help us get one, I will root for that one loss & I'll save my feel good moment for April and seasons beyond.

 

The fact that you don't believe the Bills can turn it around, yet you continue to look at the darkest side, looking to feel good about meaningless wins & that you actually believe Jets fans will be upset if they lose proves that you're the real loser here, not the fans who want & believe the team can do better.

[RealityCheck]

that quote about MY loser mentality (the one YOU agree with, but it's MY loser mentality...ok yeah, RIGHT) really takes the cake. if you can naively believe that ralph and the beancounters can suddenly build a winning team then i hope santa brought you something nice this year. it's not IMPOSSIBLE for the team to turn a corner because, after all, ralph lucked into a few good teams in between all the sucking. we all know that. but it's insane to think these guys are likely to build a winner suddenly because we picked 2nd or 3rd instead of 8th. there is not one reason to believe that. and yeah i do think the bills will be horrible until ralph dies. i'm not alone and the evidence is on MY side, not yours.

 

i have no problem with playing a few backups, but by your logic we should have been giving up and hoping to lose by the end of october...since that was the point we were eliminated from the playoffs. i want to send jets fans home mad. that would be the more "optimistic" view :lol:

 

please show me evidence that there is "far greater" chance of the bills turning around with a top 3 pick as opposed to a 4 or 6 or 8. i posted the link to the draft history to show you dingleberries that that evidence is spotty at best. why is that so hard to understand?

What I don't understand is why you care so much about a difference of opinion.

[DrDawkinstein]

Are you serious? You dont get the point.

 

Every single HOF player, could have been drafted by a top 3 pick. Every stinking one in the history of the draft. Every player that just made this years pro bowl could have been drafted in the top 3 too. Whether the teams drafting in the top 3 were smart enough to draft them is another story, but do not confuse opportunity with execution.

 

I cant control who the Bills pick, but I want them to have the best ***opportunity*** to draft that HOFer, and drafting in the top 3 gives them a better chance to WIN than drafting 8. That, is a fact.

 

 

I definitely don't want the team to lose, and I also feel that a higher draft slot doesn't necessarily assure us a better player, but I DO like the fact that we would have just a little more control and flexibility with the draft the higher we pick. There are so many potential defensive studs with first round grades that I would really like to see us keep our first pick and then put some sort of package together to get back into the first round. Sort of like what they did to get McCargo, but this time hopefully making a smarter pick. It also may be smart to try to move back a few spots and pick up another top 30 player that way. I'll be happy as a pig in slop if we hear a name like Dareus or Bowers when the Bills are on the clock. I'm pretty much just rambling now....that is all

 

 

See? That's why you and I get along AJ. I totally respect that stance. You don't want to actively root for the Bills to lose (nor do I) but you see the benefits if they do lose. That's called being rational. Must mean you need one of these ...

 

 

 

Im with you guys. At this point, the season is a complete wash and basically over. I want and expect that players to compete and try to win, but as a fan that can see the bigger picture, the future of the franchise is better off if they lose. Every spot we can move up puts us more in the drivers seat for getting the players we want.

[Van_phelaN1]

but everyone's point seems to be that we can't possibly improve unless we pick top 3. but the record shows that picking top 3 is not what turns your team around. so we do not gain by losing Sunday. we just lose. again. it's one thing to PREDICT losses by the bills...that is far too easy. it is quite another thing to ROOT FOR THEM out of the misguided belief that it turns your franchise around.

 

what turns your franchise around is seeking out, and paying for, top notch front office talent and then coaches. in that order. unfortunately ralph is neither willing nor able to do this...even if his handpicked yes-men beancounters convinced him this was the smart way to go, he wouldn't know how to hire a good gm anyway. and if he got one by accident he'd run him out of town before he got the job done.

 

So, then there is no reason to even discuss winning and losing and draft position because by your logic the Bills are doomed forever and always until Mr. Wilson passes away regardless of who they pick and where.

 

Was the point of your post just to remind us all how pointless rooting for our team is? Gosh I never thought about it that way, I guess I will just stop watching football now.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Van_phelaN1

[The Avenger]

It's not truly about having a higher draft pick - it's more about what options are available to you when you pick.

 

Recent history suggests that the Bills have been just out of reach for the guys that they have rated highly AND fill a position of need (i.e. - Patrick Willis). I have no doubt that last year the Bills would have taken Bradford or Suh if they had been in a position to do so - they were not and felt that the best player available when they selected was Spiller. Seeing all the best players at positions of need go off the board before you pick forces your hand - you end up with guys you feel have great talent but they may not be at the positions we need (seriously - did we really need another RB more than we needed someone in the trenches?). The earlier you pick the less of a problem you have with this, and at this stage of trying to rebuild that's a big deal for the Bills.

 

When all is said and done there's no guarantee that ANY pick the Bills make will pan out - Lord knows how many picks they've missed on, especially in the early rounds - that's one of the main reasons we are where we are - but it would be nice to be able to pick the player we really want/need rather than having to go to plan B or plan C because he was picked ahead of you.

[Van_phelaN1]

Im with you guys. At this point, the season is a complete wash and basically over. I want and expect that players to compete and try to win, but as a fan that can see the bigger picture, the future of the franchise is better off if they lose. Every spot we can move up puts us more in the drivers seat for getting the players we want.

 

If we really wanted someone in the higher spot bad enough we will trade up to grab them. Worked out well for Josh McDaniels right??

[Bob in STL]

Are you serious? You dont get the point.

 

Every single HOF player, could have been drafted by a top 3 pick. Every stinking one in the history of the draft. Every player that just made this years pro bowl could have been drafted in the top 3 too. Whether the teams drafting in the top 3 were smart enough to draft them is another story, but do not confuse opportunity with execution.

 

I cant control who the Bills pick, but I want them to have the best ***opportunity*** to draft that HOFer, and drafting in the top 3 gives them a better chance to WIN than drafting 8. That, is a fact.

 

 

You really have no facts just a simple theory.

 

In the past ten years or more teams like New England, Indy, and Pittsburgh seem to do just fine with less "opportunity". They consistenly draft near the end of the round (OK - New England always seem to make creative moves to improve their selection position, more on that later).

 

I think having a good draft starts way before draft day. Over time your draft board and player rankings (i.e. your scouting and talent evaluation) become much more important than your draft position. If this were not true then there would not be perenial winners and perenial losers. The losers would sieze the extra "opportunity" and draft the best players and become winners. The winners would be forced to take lesser players and eventually weaken.

 

The Bills two biggest draft blunders were the trades up in the draft when they gave away an extra pick for Losman and McCargo --- their "opportunity" to find a Pro Bowler was better, right? Seems to me that drafting four players, as opposed to two at slightly higher positions would be a better bet?

 

What I think has plagued the Bills for a long time are these factors:

 

1 - poor front office decisions (by the GM, Owner, and Coach) on the use of the first pick. The first round has been a disaster and there is no excuse for it.

2 - We have found some late mid and late round gems but overall the scouting department has not done the job, the player rankings have to fall on someones lap (see results)

3 - Trading up and trading picks has proven to be ineffective

4 - Free agency is not effectively used prior to the draft to plug holes, causing the Bills to reach on need picks rather than making the best pick. Last year Buddy Nix said he "slept" during the start of free agency. I want a guy on the phone, working hard to fill holes. Even if we have no intention on signing a first day, big name free agent, I want someone in the game.

5 - Changes and termoil in the front office and coaching staff have led to a lack of a cohesive, long range plan. Each new coach gets rid of the prior coaches players. As such, we continue to draft DBs and RBs in the first round and replace the same positions over and over. Last week Belichek was coaching against his 5th Bills coach sinced he started in New England. Five coaches and GMs for Buffalo, all getting better draft "opportunities" and yet the talent disparity was so obvious.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Your missing the point. No one is saying the players should tank. The players would never tank because they're playing for their own jobs. Their family's food. They have to go out and play hard and they will. Nothing can be done about that. Nor should it.

 

But that doesn't mean, in this instance, that a win helps with the bigger goal. The team goal. Namely, helping the Buffalo Bills out of their playoff slumber. In fact, very good arguments have been made that a win in this particular instance could potentially hurt said goal.

 

I'm not saying that you should root for the team to lose. But I am saying that any rational person can clearly see that the only ones who benefit from a Bills win are the fans who crave nothing more than instant gratification because "it's the Jets! They're our rival! blah blah ...". 'Cause truth is, that is all bs anyway. The players don't care about this "rivalry", the nation doesn't care about this rivalry, hell the Jets don't even consider it a rivalry because this organization has been a cellar dweller for a DECADE.

 

The only way to change that is to build a team that can compete for more than a 7 win season. We need to build a team that can seriously contend for the AFC East year in and year out. Like the Pats. Like the Steelers. Like the Colts. Like the Ravens. Like the (bad year to use them) Chargers. And while the draft isn't the only way, nor is it even a guaranteed way, to build the team -- it certainly improves your odds if you have 7 higher draft picks. At least more than winning the last game of the season to bring your record up to 5-11.

 

But go on believing that this rivalry means anything to anyone BUT the Bills fans. The players don't see it as a rivalry. The Coaches don't. Jets fans don't. The list goes on ...

 

GO BILLS!

If you're telling me that the players that the team continues to evaluate wouldn't benefit from a win, and that a coaching staff that needs more experience wouldn't benefit from a win, well, then I don't know what to tell you. There's no guarantee the Jets are playing backups; if we lose to their backups, the TSW crybaby brigade will be out there to inform you how the Bills suck because they can't even beat BACKUPS.

 

I, for one, think the Bills could use players like Jerod Mayo (#10), Ryan Clady (#12), Patrick Willis (#11), Haloti Ngata (#12), DeMarcus Ware (#11), Roethlisberger (#11), Wilfork (#21)... Some of those players are better than a MAJORITY of those picked before them. Maybe it's about how you use the picks you have, and - just as importantly - about the environment you provide for that pick, instead of where you pick.

 

But by all means, rail on about how the Bills' chances are dead in the water if they don't secure that #3 pick, and about how losing is good for all.

 

Also, kudos Bob in STL.

[DrDawkinstein]

If you're telling me that the players that the team continues to evaluate wouldn't benefit from a win, and that a coaching staff that needs more experience wouldn't benefit from a win, well, then I don't know what to tell you. There's no guarantee the Jets are playing backups; if we lose to their backups, the TSW crybaby brigade will be out there to inform you how the Bills suck because they can't even beat BACKUPS.

 

I, for one, think the Bills could use players like Jerod Mayo (#10), Ryan Clady (#12), Patrick Willis (#11), Haloti Ngata (#12), DeMarcus Ware (#11), Roethlisberger (#11), Wilfork (#21)... Some of those players are better than a MAJORITY of those picked before them. Maybe it's about how you use the picks you have, and - just as importantly - about the environment you provide for that pick, instead of where you pick.

 

But by all means, rail on about how the Bills' chances are dead in the water if they don't secure that #3 pick, and about how losing is good for all.

 

Also, kudos Bob in STL.

 

Most of your examples actually prove the point tgreg and others are trying to make:

 

Jerod Mayo (#10), Bills picked #11 in that draft, if only we had one more loss we could have grabbed him

Patrick Willis (#11), Bills picked #12 in that draft, if only we had one more loss

Demarcus Ware (#11), the Bills would have picked #20 in that draft

Rothlisberger (#11), Bills picked #13...

 

Ngata and Clady were misses, for sure, but I think the Ngata miss has been discussed enough here.

 

Again, Im not saying that an earlier pick guarantees you a better player. My thought though is that it gives you greater control and the ability to get the guys you want. And I trust Buddy and Chan to want better players than we have in the past.

[DC Grid]

please go through the nfl draft history for the past 10-12 years and identify all the top three picks (because remember, we just HAVE TO HAVE A TOP 3 PICK THIS YEAR OR WE'LL NEVER BE GOOD!!) who have proven to be studs and transformed bad teams into good ones. i did notice ryan was taken 3rd by the falcons in '08, so there is one check in your column. but as i scroll back through those lists, i see mostly guys who were drafted by sucky teams who have continued to suck. which supports my view that we don't have to have a top3 pick to turn this team around...what we need is guys who can draft.

 

meanwhile there are as many productive players in the 4-8 spots, where we'll wind up drafting if OMYGOD SHEER AND UTTER DISASTER STRIKES and we win sunday.

 

link:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?season=2009&round=round1

 

<edited for content> Beerball

 

Fact is, a win costs the Bills 4-5 draft spots in every round. That is often huge not only in the 1st round but also the second. Often times teams picking high in the second get a shot at 1st round talent that fell for no reason but the position needs of the teams that drafted in the last 3rd of the first round.

 

Also let's put this "win" into perspective. A win won't get the Bills into the playoffs. A win could provide a psychological benefit if it came against a team in the Division that was actually at full strength, which is precisely why I was hoping the Bills would pull out all the stops and beat the pats last week. But if the Jets are pulling starters, what does a win against them achieve?

 

For all those who think it's stupid to believe the Bills are better off losing against the Jets backups, what is the quantitative upside to such a win? The downside is clear, the Bills draft position will be significantly hurt. Are those who hope for a win against the Jets backups also disappointed when the Bills don't play their starters for every minute of the preseason?

[RealityCheck]

Can someone explain how this debate will affect the outcome of Sunday's game, or when and who we draft in 2011?

[Acantha]

Can someone explain how this debate will affect the outcome of Sunday's game, or when and who we draft in 2011?

As soon as you explain how this board or your registration and posting on it will do the same.

[RealityCheck]

As soon as you explain how this board or your registration and posting on it will do the same.

I guess you also take yourself quite seriously. I just don't see the problem with some people hoping for the win while others would prefer a higher pick as a result of losing. It's not like the fans control the integrity of the game.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Did anybody do the homework? Here's some data on top 3 picks.

 

09: Stafford, Jason Smith, Tyson Jackson

08: Long, Long, Matt Ryan

07: JaMarcus, Calvin Johnson, Joe Thomas

06: Super Mario, Reggie Heisman, Vince Young

05: Alex Smith, Ronnie Brown, Braylon Edwards

04: Eli Manning, Robert Gallery, Larry Fitzpatrick

03: Carson Palmer, Charles Rogers, Andre Johnson

02: David Carr, Julius Peppers, Joey Harrington

01: Mike Vick, Leonard Davis, Gerard Warren

00: Courtney Brown, LaVar Arrington, Chris Samuels

99: Tim Couch, Donovan McNabb, Akili Smith

98: Peyton Manning, Ryan Leaf, Andre Wadsworth

 

So, with hands waving, one might say drafting in the top 3 gives a team about a 25-30% chance of hitting on a franchise player. (Of course, Matt Millen single-handedly may have skewed those results for this time period.

[bbb]

Did anybody do the homework? Here's some data on top 3 picks.

 

09: Stafford, Jason Smith, Tyson Jackson

08: Long, Long, Matt Ryan

07: JaMarcus, Calvin Johnson, Joe Thomas

06: Super Mario, Reggie Heisman, Vince Young

05: Alex Smith, Ronnie Brown, Braylon Edwards

04: Eli Manning, Robert Gallery, Larry Fitzpatrick

03: Carson Palmer, Charles Rogers, Andre Johnson

02: David Carr, Julius Peppers, Joey Harrington

01: Mike Vick, Leonard Davis, Gerard Warren

00: Courtney Brown, LaVar Arrington, Chris Samuels

99: Tim Couch, Donovan McNabb, Akili Smith

98: Peyton Manning, Ryan Leaf, Andre Wadsworth

 

What are the highlighted ones supposed to be?

 

I posted in another thread last night that the 3 Pro Bowl AFC tackles were all top 4 picks. I'd love one of those.

 

The OP is so myopic he should change his name to Mr. Magoo.

[John from Riverside]

Well....I present this a different way......

 

What if we get that 3rd pick......and TRADE IT.....for another 2nd rounder.....and a 3rd rounder. I dont know if this is even possible.

 

But when you have a team that has a a head man who drafts well.....who gets multiple picks in all of the rounds.....and you have mulitple holes to fill.....well lets just say that a 2-3 first round pick is much more valuable then a 9th overall in that scenario....

 

There are a LOT of people comparing Bowers to Bruce Smith.......I would LOVE to have that on this team. How much better would Williams be if he had a scary pass rusher lining up on the outside?

 

Yes...I want the best pick possible over a meaningless win when we cant even knock them out of the playoffs at this point. There is NOTHING to play for.

[Sisyphean Bills]

What are the highlighted ones supposed to be?

It's entirely subjective as no criteria were set forth as what a "good pick" was in the OP. I just highlighted a few notable names is all -- guys that featured prominently on Super Bowl teams and such. There are excellent players that I didn't bold and some people will strike all sorts of postures over some of those that I did bold of course. Let's just call it what it was, a quick sort of shotgun approach to identifying some good players that went 1, 2, or 3.

I posted in another thread last night that the 3 Pro Bowl AFC tackles were all top 4 picks. I'd love one of those.

 

The OP is so myopic he should change his name to Mr. Magoo.

[bbb]

It's entirely subjective as no criteria were set forth as what a "good pick" was in the OP. I just highlighted a few notable names is all -- guys that featured prominently on Super Bowl teams and such. There are excellent players that I didn't bold and some people will strike all sorts of postures over some of those that I did bold of course. Let's just call it what it was, a quick sort of shotgun approach to identifying some good players that went 1, 2, or 3.

 

Got it - yeah, you can add first team pro bowlers Joe Thomas & Jake Long, Mario Williams and a few more to the highlighted list for sure.