The Great TSW Myth

[Spiderweb]

Goodjob jboyst62. One thing though, Conlan was not much faster than Poz, if at all. Actually, he was pretty much a stiff himself.

 

Conlon proved to be very good inside, but he too was a serious problem when it cam to pass coverage. I would give the edge to Poz easily in a foot race. Conlon (years back) had his foot speed compared to that of a slouth on more than one occasion.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Conlon proved to be very good inside, but he too was a serious problem when it cam to pass coverage. I would give the edge to Poz easily in a foot race. Conlon (years back) had his foot speed compared to that of a slouth on more than one occasion.

Conlon's strength was that he was a student of the game, knew how to diagnose the plays, and had instincts and knack to be in the right place at the right time. Posluszny just doesn't have that and is often caught reacting to a play that's already happened.

[Thoner7]

Not so much in a 34 (I would assume) but in a 4-3, if a LB takes on a blocker, he isn’t expected to make the tackle. That’s why Moats has been so great against the run this year, and guys like Keith Ellison have sucked so badly in the past.

 

Moats sets the edge of the defense extremely well. He gets up field, takes on the TE or FB, and contains the RB and forces him back inside. He stays in position to chase down any runner who does choose to go wide and can make that play too. Ellison would get sealed and blocked with outside leverage (Kelsay is also extremely guilty of this from his weakside end position) which allows the RB to just dart toward the sideline while the not-so-fast Poz fails to chase him down and the other team gets a big gain. Fans then scream “Man Poz sucks he is slow and white” when they should be screaming “F my life I cant believe Keith Ellison/Kelsay are still on the field, they cannot take on a block to save their life and are crewing the rest of our defense.”

 

Poz when he does take on blocks seems to get blown up and not hold his ground. Faceing contact as never been one of his strengths. That’s why I think they moved him to a weak side role this year. If our base D is going to be a 34 I don’t know how good a player he will be having to take on OGs on most snaps, but as a 4-3 player he is far from a weak link. That said he has been asked to be our top LB and play in all situations – when on a really good team he would likely be a 2 down LBer.

[Dorkington]

Poz is just fine as a LB, imo. He's our best ILB, and he's not the worst in the league.

 

We have a pretty sub standard line, and OLB's, and I think that doesn't help things.

 

And on top of mediocre starters, we have horrible depth.

[Fan in San Diego]

Best thread on TSW in a long time. Carry on.

[Chilly]

Not so much in a 34 (I would assume) but in a 4-3, if a LB takes on a blocker, he isn’t expected to make the tackle. That’s why Moats has been so great against the run this year, and guys like Keith Ellison have sucked so badly in the past.

 

Moats sets the edge of the defense extremely well. He gets up field, takes on the TE or FB, and contains the RB and forces him back inside. He stays in position to chase down any runner who does choose to go wide and can make that play too. Ellison would get sealed and blocked with outside leverage (Kelsay is also extremely guilty of this from his weakside end position) which allows the RB to just dart toward the sideline while the not-so-fast Poz fails to chase him down and the other team gets a big gain. Fans then scream “Man Poz sucks he is slow and white” when they should be screaming “F my life I cant believe Keith Ellison/Kelsay are still on the field, they cannot take on a block to save their life and are crewing the rest of our defense.”

 

Poz when he does take on blocks seems to get blown up and not hold his ground. Faceing contact as never been one of his strengths. That’s why I think they moved him to a weak side role this year. If our base D is going to be a 34 I don’t know how good a player he will be having to take on OGs on most snaps, but as a 4-3 player he is far from a weak link. That said he has been asked to be our top LB and play in all situations – when on a really good team he would likely be a 2 down LBer.

 

Poz can't cover, though, which means he's NOT a good MLB for a tampa-2 style 4-3.

[The Big Cat]

Lets say the opponent runs out of an i-form set. You have potentially 7 blockers on the play: All 5 OL, TE, FB. Even if all 3 linemen ate up 2 blockers (which is unrealistic), you still are going to need the initial linebacker to shed a block.

 

It's unrealistic to think that each member of a 3-4 DLine is going to take up two blockers on each play. Ideally, what you're looking for is 3 players who will eat up all five offensive linemen, and middle linebackers with the ability to avoid & shed blocks from TEs, FBs, etc, to be able to make tackles.

 

That's how the Steeler defense works anyway.

 

Okay, but if you have six of those blockers consumed by the defensive lineman, and one guy left blocking, the lead blocker and the running back are now taking on the linebackers 2 on 4. I like those odds if I'm a defender. You've got two guys who can filter two guys waiting.

 

Oh, and it generally does take 5-6 blockers to contain the better, more technique oriented, disciplined front lines the likes of which exist in Pittsburgh and Baltimore and apparently New England, too.

[notwoz]

Best thread on TSW in a long time. Carry on.

+1 -- one of the few threads I've read all the way through.

[Astrobot]

This is required reading. EXCELLENT post!

 

 

 

You create some good OC around here once in a while, keep it up; whether it's silly talk or valid points.

 

Nonetheless, this is a point that needs to be addressed. The DL in a 4-3 is responsible creating a layer for the ILB to work behind to scrape the edges.

 

In the 3-4 the LB's on the inside enter two roles. The strong side/Mike (Ayodele) Linebacker must be able to manage all aspects of the game, dropping in to coverage for a TE or WRF but more importantly stop the run, shed blockers and make the tackles. Traditionally, most running plays are to the strong side. The Mike is often the most complete LB on the team.

 

The weakside LB/Will (Poz) must be able to do the same, but more importantly be fast enough to drop in to pass potection and keep pace with RB's, TE's and other WR's. The Will must be the quickest LB of the bunch.

 

The Sam (Kelsey) and Roger/Jack (Moats) will often be the ones contain the perimeter and hold the QB in the pocket while the DL pushes the pocket. They are pretty much quicker DE's in a 4-3.

 

That means we need to have a DL who can push the pocket, which we seem to have in Williams and others. They are having struggles keeping the OL from penetrating the D-front. Poz as the WLB does not have the speed he needs to keep up with backs and TE's and I am hoping he can develop in to a MLB.

 

We have Moats who can rush the passer and Kelsey who is struggling, we have Ayodele who is perhaps underrated and at the least a stop-gap player, and we have Poz. I think when it comes to the misunderstanding with Poz is that they do not understand his role to the team. Poz is supposed to be Shane Conlan. Conlan was much faster then Poz and a very good WLB, and Poz is progessing in the new system this year.

 

 

In most OL blocking schemes they zone protect. The Center will cover the NT with generally the strong side OG assisting. The LT's will pick up the DT's leaving the weakside OG open and available. On a passing play this player will not cross the LOS to get POZ and often times fall back in to a zone, sometimes taking the DT so the JLB gets picked up. The TE will generally have to pick up the SLB, sometimes with FB assistance. Generally the FB goes to the strong side on passing plays to stop the better pass rusher, the SLB. Our SLB is not very effective this year at getting to the QB and that has hurt us.

 

On running plays the strong side OG and OC will block the NT, the OT's generally block the DT's depending on which gap is covered. The Weakside OG will go after Poz, and he should be able to shed the block, but it is not his priotity to stop the run as much as it is Ayodele's. Ayodele would be the open inside LB to make the stop. The outside LB's must remain home to contain. The running defense starts and stops with Ayodele.

[Chilly]

Okay, but if you have six of those blockers consumed by the defensive lineman, and one guy left blocking, the lead blocker and the running back are now taking on the linebackers 2 on 4. I like those odds if I'm a defender. You've got two guys who can filter two guys waiting.

 

Oh, and it generally does take 5-6 blockers to contain the better, more technique oriented, disciplined front lines the likes of which exist in Pittsburgh and Baltimore and apparently New England, too.

 

5 yes. And you're making the assumption that all linebackers will be focusing on stopping the run. On any given play, some LBs will drop into coverage, some may be blitzing away from the runner, etc.

[The Big Cat]

5 yes. And you're making the assumption that all linebackers will be focusing on stopping the run. On any given play, some LBs will drop into coverage, some may be blitzing away from the runner, etc.

 

So what's your point?

[BuffaloBill]

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/2009/09bramel_idpguide.php

 

 

I've read this before ... excellent material .. shows why Bruce Smith was a monster.

[3rdand12]

I've read this before ... excellent material .. shows why Bruce Smith was a monster.

I have saved the link and intend to read this completely.

Thank you gentleman for your enlightening points of view.

I have enjoyed the education and the POVs also.

I have an opinion to put my stamp of approval on. A Pass rush/Bowers. I have others depending on where we land, at olb and de but i think this is a good call.

[boyst]

This is required reading. EXCELLENT post!

Should I now explain how Byrd, Wilson and Whitner fit in to this scheme? I think I shall.

 

Those who say Whitner neglects the pass often forget that his priority is the run. As I explained in my last post Ayodele and Poz should contain the run but we all know that these two are getting swallowed up by the OL, TE's and FB's. Whitner has had to come and stuff the middle more then others.

 

Whitner is a very complete SS, and has the ability to stop that run. With our DL acting like a revolving door to let OG's and FB's right at our LB's we rely on him way to much to stop the run. He is better then most at this, being a big, strong phyiscal back. I do not think Polamalu could do this. He is big, he is strong, but the Steelers D is designed around him and that goes back to LeBeau's genius. Only 5 SS in the league have more then 4 INT's. Polamalu has 6, which is a lot for a SS.

 

Our INT's should come from our CB's who should be in positions to make the play. The must be able to play man to man, when they are most likely to get the INT, because when in zone the LB's and safeties are more likely. That is most likely due to play calling in short yardage that zone D's called. A CB has one position, cover their man. In a 3-4 there are 2 CB's. Between the two CB's and the Mike, these should be your best players on the team, the ones who matter most.

 

The FS must be extremely fast and have field vision. The play, you could argue, stops with him. He follows the ball, he drops back and in most cases should be the deepest man on the field. He must be physical enough to go up and battle for the ball with todays speedy and tall WR's. He is the man who puts the lid on the primary receiving threat. Yes, receiving, not WR. On many plays the primary WR is not the #1 WR, it can be the FB, Centers on a pot pass; the TE, Todd Heap on a fade; the Flanker, Welker on a middle post; the Split, Welker on hook, the RB, Jackson split out to run a fade, or any of these combinations. On every play the FS must, in a matter of seconds, find that go-to guy and get on him.

 

So, if you ask me...our problem is that our Sam cannot get the needed pressure on the QB, the DT's cannot pressure the pocket, the NT is struggling to fill the middle and does poor against the run blocks, the CB's are not covering well enough, the Mike is overworked, and the SS is suffering because of the previous. Maybe I am crazy, but we need a CB and we need some DT's and a 34 NT. But, yes...we need a CB who can shut down. Prince Amukamara.

[agardin]

I have saved the link and intend to read this completely.

Thank you gentleman for your enlightening points of view.

I have enjoyed the education and the POVs also.

I have an opinion to put my stamp of approval on. A Pass rush/Bowers. I have others depending on where we land, at olb and de but i think this is a good call.

 

Great article, I was wondering this when the Bills said they were going to the 3-4, why follow the heard? NT are very hard to find, as well as the rest of the DLine. Not to mention, offensive co-ordinators are building offenses to beat the 3-4 so why not be different. I am not sure what that D might be but it could be multiple fronts with good, solid and smart players as they have in New England. On the offensive side of the ball, if everyone is going to the 3-4 why not develop a power running game with screens and play action to mix things up. I guess what I am saying is why not be the outsider that has first crack at the best personel on both sides of the ball. As with the stock market I guess I am a contrarian.

 

On idea for drafting a CB in the first round, apparently there are two very good ones in this draft. Are the Bills happy with Florence/McGee is McKelvin going to step up? Are the Bills going to lose a starting CB in FA? I do know that having a very good corner is always a priority for any decent defense.

[The Big Cat]

Should I now explain how Byrd, Wilson and Whitner fit in to this scheme? I think I shall.

 

Those who say Whitner neglects the pass often forget that his priority is the run. As I explained in my last post Ayodele and Poz should contain the run but we all know that these two are getting swallowed up by the OL, TE's and FB's. Whitner has had to come and stuff the middle more then others.

 

Whitner is a very complete SS, and has the ability to stop that run. With our DL acting like a revolving door to let OG's and FB's right at our LB's we rely on him way to much to stop the run. He is better then most at this, being a big, strong phyiscal back. I do not think Polamalu could do this. He is big, he is strong, but the Steelers D is designed around him and that goes back to LeBeau's genius. Only 5 SS in the league have more then 4 INT's. Polamalu has 6, which is a lot for a SS.

 

Our INT's should come from our CB's who should be in positions to make the play. The must be able to play man to man, when they are most likely to get the INT, because when in zone the LB's and safeties are more likely. That is most likely due to play calling in short yardage that zone D's called. A CB has one position, cover their man. In a 3-4 there are 2 CB's. Between the two CB's and the Mike, these should be your best players on the team, the ones who matter most.

 

The FS must be extremely fast and have field vision. The play, you could argue, stops with him. He follows the ball, he drops back and in most cases should be the deepest man on the field. He must be physical enough to go up and battle for the ball with todays speedy and tall WR's. He is the man who puts the lid on the primary receiving threat. Yes, receiving, not WR. On many plays the primary WR is not the #1 WR, it can be the FB, Centers on a pot pass; the TE, Todd Heap on a fade; the Flanker, Welker on a middle post; the Split, Welker on hook, the RB, Jackson split out to run a fade, or any of these combinations. On every play the FS must, in a matter of seconds, find that go-to guy and get on him.

 

So, if you ask me...our problem is that our Sam cannot get the needed pressure on the QB, the DT's cannot pressure the pocket, the NT is struggling to fill the middle and does poor against the run blocks, the CB's are not covering well enough, the Mike is overworked, and the SS is suffering because of the previous. Maybe I am crazy, but we need a CB and we need some DT's and a 34 NT. But, yes...we need a CB who can shut down. Prince Amukamara.

 

How do you watch games? In person? On TV? DVR? all the aforementioned?

[boyst]

How do you watch games? In person? On TV? DVR? all the aforementioned?

I have watched less then you think. If I do, it is streaming on the internet if I can or feel like, this year I have not watched much, NFL.com clips, and just knowing the Bills players.

 

You'd be surprised how little I watch football. I generally watch less then 20 minutes every Sunday.

 

Of Bills football this year I have watched maybe 10-13 quaters of action of various games, etc.

Edited December 29, 2010 by jboyst62

[Coach Tuesday]

So, if you ask me...our problem is that our Sam cannot get the needed pressure on the QB, the DT's cannot pressure the pocket, the NT is struggling to fill the middle and does poor against the run blocks, the CB's are not covering well enough, the Mike is overworked, and the SS is suffering because of the previous. Maybe I am crazy, but we need a CB and we need some DT's and a 34 NT. But, yes...we need a CB who can shut down. Prince Amukamara.

 

AAAAAAAACK! Don't say it, man. This was going so well...

[Chilly]

So what's your point?

 

Math? Did you not get that? Read it again?

Edited December 29, 2010 by BlueFire