The Great TSW Myth

[The Big Cat]

Paul Posluszny takes a lot of flack around here, and rightfully so.

 

He's pretty bad in pass coverage, he's not terribly fast, his angles of pursuit leave much to be desired, and his hits don't seem to frighten anyone.

 

But one thing he's constantly getting criticized for around here is his "inability to shed blocks."

 

I'm curious as to which ILB's in the NFL do consistently get away from interior lineman who have reached the second level. Remember when Ray Lewis disappeared for two years and asked to be traded unless Baltimore bulked up the front lines? Well, they did. And guess who came roaring back.

 

Now, I'm no aPOZalogist, and I'm certainly not suggesting he's Ray Lewis in waiting, but can someone please confirm that it's the defensive line's job to swallow up those blockers so that linebackers can fill gaps and make tackles?

 

Pittsburgh doesn't have playmakers on their frontline. They have guys who play with flawless technique and discipline, and it allows their LB's and Polamalu to run rampant and make plays. Isn't this the model defense?

 

Too often offensive lineman make it to our linebackers. Once they've engaged the linebackers (as they're trained to do as professionals) it would seem that our linebackers SHOULD be toast. They're out sized and they're going up against guys who block guys much much bigger and stronger to make their living. Seems to me that if we're pissed about linebackers getting "swallowed up by blockers" that the onus rests on the guys who let them advance that far in the first place...

 

Anyone?

[JStranger76]

Wonderful topic and it should be pinned. I'd just like to add that many here also believe every other team has LBers that make all their tackles right at the line of scrimmage or even many for losses. Please allow anyone to add further angles on the subject and even add another TSW myth if you will.........this could get real interesting.........

 

Oh sorry, I'll also agree that much of the blame should be placed on the D-line as well. LBers who can shed a offensive linemans block on a regular basis DO NOT EXIST.

 

If I may, a myth I would like to add is every other team has a SS between 225 and 235 lbs who runs a 4.4 40, can cover, blitz, and is a run stuffing tackling machine.

[dgrid]

from what I understand about 3-4 ILB play, the strong-side ILB is supposed to handle more blocks than the weakside ILB.

Some people were expecting Poz to have a good season this yr, since Davis would be keeping him clean.

 

we need to get a STRONG ILB to both take on blocks, and stop the run. If the above is true, then that should help Poz as well.

[Chilly]

Lets say the opponent runs out of an i-form set. You have potentially 7 blockers on the play: All 5 OL, TE, FB. Even if all 3 linemen ate up 2 blockers (which is unrealistic), you still are going to need the initial linebacker to shed a block.

 

It's unrealistic to think that each member of a 3-4 DLine is going to take up two blockers on each play. Ideally, what you're looking for is 3 players who will eat up all five offensive linemen, and middle linebackers with the ability to avoid & shed blocks from TEs, FBs, etc, to be able to make tackles.

 

That's how the Steeler defense works anyway.

[boyst]

You create some good OC around here once in a while, keep it up; whether it's silly talk or valid points.

 

Nonetheless, this is a point that needs to be addressed. The DL in a 4-3 is responsible creating a layer for the ILB to work behind to scrape the edges.

 

In the 3-4 the LB's on the inside enter two roles. The strong side/Mike (Ayodele) Linebacker must be able to manage all aspects of the game, dropping in to coverage for a TE or WRF but more importantly stop the run, shed blockers and make the tackles. Traditionally, most running plays are to the strong side. The Mike is often the most complete LB on the team.

 

The weakside LB/Will (Poz) must be able to do the same, but more importantly be fast enough to drop in to pass potection and keep pace with RB's, TE's and other WR's. The Will must be the quickest LB of the bunch.

 

The Sam (Kelsey) and Roger/Jack (Moats) will often be the ones contain the perimeter and hold the QB in the pocket while the DL pushes the pocket. They are pretty much quicker DE's in a 4-3.

 

That means we need to have a DL who can push the pocket, which we seem to have in Williams and others. They are having struggles keeping the OL from penetrating the D-front. Poz as the WLB does not have the speed he needs to keep up with backs and TE's and I am hoping he can develop in to a MLB.

 

We have Moats who can rush the passer and Kelsey who is struggling, we have Ayodele who is perhaps underrated and at the least a stop-gap player, and we have Poz. I think when it comes to the misunderstanding with Poz is that they do not understand his role to the team. Poz is supposed to be Shane Conlan. Conlan was much faster then Poz and a very good WLB, and Poz is progessing in the new system this year.

 

It's unrealistic to think that each member of a 3-4 DLine is going to take up two blockers on each play.

In most OL blocking schemes they zone protect. The Center will cover the NT with generally the strong side OG assisting. The LT's will pick up the DT's leaving the weakside OG open and available. On a passing play this player will not cross the LOS to get POZ and often times fall back in to a zone, sometimes taking the DT so the JLB gets picked up. The TE will generally have to pick up the SLB, sometimes with FB assistance. Generally the FB goes to the strong side on passing plays to stop the better pass rusher, the SLB. Our SLB is not very effective this year at getting to the QB and that has hurt us.

 

On running plays the strong side OG and OC will block the NT, the OT's generally block the DT's depending on which gap is covered. The Weakside OG will go after Poz, and he should be able to shed the block, but it is not his priotity to stop the run as much as it is Ayodele's. Ayodele would be the open inside LB to make the stop. The outside LB's must remain home to contain. The running defense starts and stops with Ayodele.

Edited December 28, 2010 by jboyst62

[JStranger76]

Goodjob jboyst62. One thing though, Conlan was not much faster than Poz, if at all. Actually, he was pretty much a stiff himself.

[boyst]

Goodjob jboyst62. One thing though, Conlan was not much faster than Poz, if at all. Actually, he was pretty much a stiff himself.

I agree, but his ability to overcome for that downfall is huge. When did you not seem him all over the field?

[Sisyphean Bills]

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/2009/09bramel_idpguide.php

[JStranger76]

Oh, I agree. Also don't forget he had that huge 270 lb NT to protect him too! Great two down backer in his prime Conlan was.

[akm0404]

While all parts of a defense work together in harmony and you can't just look at any one player in a vacuum, you do occasionally see some of the good ILBs in the NFL engage a blocker, throw them aside at the key moment, and make a tackle. It'd certainly help our linebackers if the defensive line was better, but it'd also help our linebackers if they were better at football.

[Coach Tuesday]

Fine, but on the Woodhead TD, Poz got absolutely manhandled - by a tight end.

[San-O]

You create some good OC around here once in a while, keep it up; whether it's silly talk or valid points.

 

Nonetheless, this is a point that needs to be addressed. The DL in a 4-3 is responsible creating a layer for the ILB to work behind to scrape the edges.

 

In the 3-4 the LB's on the inside enter two roles. The strong side/Mike (Ayodele) Linebacker must be able to manage all aspects of the game, dropping in to coverage for a TE or WRF but more importantly stop the run, shed blockers and make the tackles. Traditionally, most running plays are to the strong side. The Mike is often the most complete LB on the team.

 

The weakside LB/Will (Poz) must be able to do the same, but more importantly be fast enough to drop in to pass potection and keep pace with RB's, TE's and other WR's. The Will must be the quickest LB of the bunch.

 

The Sam (Kelsey) and Roger/Jack (Moats) will often be the ones contain the perimeter and hold the QB in the pocket while the DL pushes the pocket. They are pretty much quicker DE's in a 4-3.

 

That means we need to have a DL who can push the pocket, which we seem to have in Williams and others. They are having struggles keeping the OL from penetrating the D-front. Poz as the WLB does not have the speed he needs to keep up with backs and TE's and I am hoping he can develop in to a MLB.

 

We have Moats who can rush the passer and Kelsey who is struggling, we have Ayodele who is perhaps underrated and at the least a stop-gap player, and we have Poz. I think when it comes to the misunderstanding with Poz is that they do not understand his role to the team. Poz is supposed to be Shane Conlan. Conlan was much faster then Poz and a very good WLB, and Poz is progessing in the new system this year.

 

 

In most OL blocking schemes they zone protect. The Center will cover the NT with generally the strong side OG assisting. The LT's will pick up the DT's leaving the weakside OG open and available. On a passing play this player will not cross the LOS to get POZ and often times fall back in to a zone, sometimes taking the DT so the JLB gets picked up. The TE will generally have to pick up the SLB, sometimes with FB assistance. Generally the FB goes to the strong side on passing plays to stop the better pass rusher, the SLB. Our SLB is not very effective this year at getting to the QB and that has hurt us.

 

On running plays the strong side OG and OC will block the NT, the OT's generally block the DT's depending on which gap is covered. The Weakside OG will go after Poz, and he should be able to shed the block, but it is not his priotity to stop the run as much as it is Ayodele's. Ayodele would be the open inside LB to make the stop. The outside LB's must remain home to contain. The running defense starts and stops with Ayodele.

 

 

Wow. That was really good.

 

It seems the Bills have put themselves in some D front-seven twilight zone. They tried making a change to the 3-4 without all the pieces for it, drafted players for it, seem to have switched back to the 4-3, and don't have the horses for that either.

 

What does the worst run D in the league do to get better? Which system are they closer to fixing?

[boyst]

Fine, but on the Woodhead TD, Poz got absolutely manhandled - by a tight end.

I did not see the play but I imagine it was set up perfectly to exploit Poz for his lack of speed and if it would not have been Poz caught with his pants down it'd have been someone else. The Pats are by far the best team in the NFL this year.

[Coach Tuesday]

I did not see the play but I imagine it was set up perfectly to exploit Poz for his lack of speed and if it would not have been Poz caught with his pants down it'd have been someone else. The Pats are by far the best team in the NFL this year.

 

From what I saw it was just a straight ahead, hat on hat block about 3 yards deep from the LG. It was a trap on the line but Poz was hit moving forward, not sideways. Troupe was the one trapped - he sprinted upfield just as the Pats hoped. The genius of the play call was that Kyle had limped off the play before, with Troupe subbing.

[Beerball]

Paul Posluszny takes a lot of flack around here, and rightfully so.

 

He's pretty bad in pass coverage, he's not terribly fast, his angles of pursuit leave much to be desired, and his hits don't seem to frighten anyone.

 

But one thing he's constantly getting criticized for around here is his "inability to shed blocks."

 

I'm curious as to which ILB's in the NFL do consistently get away from interior lineman who have reached the second level. Remember when Ray Lewis disappeared for two years and asked to be traded unless Baltimore bulked up the front lines? Well, they did. And guess who came roaring back.

 

Now, I'm no aPOZalogist, and I'm certainly not suggesting he's Ray Lewis in waiting, but can someone please confirm that it's the defensive line's job to swallow up those blockers so that linebackers can fill gaps and make tackles?

 

Pittsburgh doesn't have playmakers on their frontline. They have guys who play with flawless technique and discipline, and it allows their LB's and Polamalu to run rampant and make plays. Isn't this the model defense?

 

Too often offensive lineman make it to our linebackers. Once they've engaged the linebackers (as they're trained to do as professionals) it would seem that our linebackers SHOULD be toast. They're out sized and they're going up against guys who block guys much much bigger and stronger to make their living. Seems to me that if we're pissed about linebackers getting "swallowed up by blockers" that the onus rests on the guys who let them advance that far in the first place...

 

Anyone?

Go back and watch yesterday's game again. You'll see Mayo show you how it is done. Then watch Poz get driven 5 yards outside of the field of play by a pats* o-lineman. Then watch him get tied up and turn to watch Woodhead speed by on his way to a touchdown.

 

Those 2 plays stand out to me, as do several of Mayo's.

 

Not a Poz hater, but he isn't an impact player on defense.

 

I did not see the play but I imagine it was set up perfectly to exploit Poz for his lack of speed and if it would not have been Poz caught with his pants down it'd have been someone else. The Pats are by far the best team in the NFL this year.

I did see the play. The lineman 'engaged' Poz on his left side. Woodhead scampered by to his right side.

[Coach Tuesday]

 

I did see the play. The lineman 'engaged' Poz on his left side. Woodhead scampered by to his right side.

 

It was the TE and it was close to head-on.

[Beerball]

It was the TE and it was close to head-on.

The lineman was on Poz left side. He had one hand on each side of his jersey (left/right) and the pats* helmet was to Poz's left. Woodhead scampered by just to his right. By the time Poz realized what was going on he could only turn and watch.

 

This play is etched in my brain, but if you want to argue about it go ahead.

[Coach Tuesday]

The lineman was on Poz left side. He had one hand on each side of his jersey (left/right) and the pats* helmet was to Poz's left. Woodhead scampered by just to his right. By the time Poz realized what was going on he could only turn and watch.

 

This play is etched in my brain, but if you want to argue about it go ahead.

 

Don't want to argue but pretty sure it was Gronkowski. You positive?

[Beerball]

Don't want to argue but pretty sure it was Gronkowski. You positive?

Naw...been painting for 10 hours today...I'm bushed, sorry. It was Light.

 

Here's a video of the play...you are correct though, Light came from his right, met him pretty well straight up and Poz couldn't cut loose. Amazing how close Woodhead cut off of him. Poz did step to his right which put Light on his left...my bad, but...not a good example of how to shed a block.

 

video link of the play

 

Stop the vid at 14 seconds.

[John from Riverside]

Two things on this....

 

- It flat out amazes me how we cannot control the edges on defense.....part of the problem is that our DE's are just not that good......nobody has any fear of them at all. Another thing that amazes me is it is painfully obvious to me that Alex Carrington has surpassed BOTH of our DE's when it comes to being a run stopper yet he sits or is forced to rotate with the likes of Marcus Stroud.....who has not been able to get it done with ANY kind of consistancy........when I look at a 3-4 defense I dont look for my down linemen to make plays to determine whehter they are doing their job or not.....I look to see if the LINEBACKERS have an opportunity to their jobs.

 

- Williams.....for all of his great play....is also part of the problem when it comes to this (its not his fault) a 3-4 NT requires a space eater that causes a RB to not see daylight in the middle of the line and want to take a different cut.....and the defense in a 3-4 RELIES on the fact that a RB will make that different cut and athletic linbackers fill the gaps to account for the runner......the problem is a runner knows that there is going to be daylight there. This is why you need a space eater in the NT spot......you are NOT LOOKING for your NT to make plays....that is why either Troupe should be manning the NT spot OR you go back to the 4-3 as your staple offense and put Troupe and Williams on the field as the same time.....then you need to get real pass rushers at the DE spots.....that is why the Bowers pick is the right pick for this team in the 1st round......Bowers is going to be a stud at the DE position as a down linemen pass rusher. Now since you have DL taking up blockers Poz doesnt get eaten up by some 330 pound guard at the second level....as much. But you have to have OLB's who can move and cover. In my mind those guys are easier to find then the guys like Bowers.

 

- Keep in mind that the plays a opposing offense also have to do with down and distance.....if we could physically stop the run on any kind of constant basis QB's would be throwing and play into what is still our strength.