Gene Frenkle Posted December 29, 2010 Posted December 29, 2010 You think youre "better" becuase you dont kill innocent people? Thats a pretty low bar to set. I arrogantly think my view is better because, unlike religion, it doesn't lead to war, killing, rape, etc... Put yourself in my shoes for a moment. If you were convinced that some mass delusion was resulting in such evil things, wouldn't you cry out against it? Wouldn't you try to make others see the light? You certainly aren't so soft on big government, but religion always gets the free pass - just not from "my ilk". I'm not going to apologize for caring about this to the point where I'm perceived as militant. As I said before, this is how god made me. Why thank you, Tom! Wow...I feel so warm inside I acutally saw it coming. I said to myself..."how I can go off on Gene when I harbor the same types of beliefs on a seperate (but somewhat related) subject?" It doesnt jibe. Way to think critically!!! Seriously. Careful how far you progress, though, lest you be confused with a Progressive.
DC Tom Posted December 29, 2010 Posted December 29, 2010 Why thank you, Tom! Wow...I feel so warm inside I acutally saw it coming. I said to myself..."how I can go off on Gene when I harbor the same types of beliefs on a seperate (but somewhat related) subject?" It doesnt jibe. Yeah, but you only went halfway in not recognizing the whole "adjective-noun transference" thing. In your defense...probably 95% of the world (including almost every poster here) doesn't recognize it either. I arrogantly think my view is better because, unlike religion, it doesn't lead to war, killing, rape, etc... Put yourself in my shoes for a moment. If you were convinced that some mass delusion was resulting in such evil things, wouldn't you cry out against it? Wouldn't you try to make others see the light? You certainly aren't so soft on big government, but religion always gets the free pass - just not from "my ilk". I'm not going to apologize for caring about this to the point where I'm perceived as militant. As I said before, this is how god made me. Gene clearly doesn't.
Gene Frenkle Posted December 29, 2010 Posted December 29, 2010 (edited) Gene clearly doesn't. I guess I'll have to live with that for now. Maybe someday I'll figure it out. For the record, I dislike religion, not religious people. No adjectives are necessary. Edited December 29, 2010 by Gene Frenkle
IDBillzFan Posted December 29, 2010 Posted December 29, 2010 I guess I'll have to live with that for now. Maybe someday I'll figure it out. For the record, I dislike religion, not religious people. No adjectives are necessary. You won't figure it out because you have no interest in figuring it out. You are certain of your position, and are equally certain that any position other than yours is useless, laughable and worth your mocking scorn at every turn. Not that you'd care, but we all have traits that drag us down as posters here. This is yours.
Magox Posted December 29, 2010 Posted December 29, 2010 You won't figure it out because you have no interest in figuring it out. You are certain of your position, and are equally certain that any position other than yours is useless, laughable and worth your mocking scorn at every turn. Not that you'd care, but we all have traits that drag us down as posters here. This is yours. "This is yours" implies one. I would say his unique ability to consistently overgeneralize is another. Gene you know I love ya
DC Tom Posted December 29, 2010 Posted December 29, 2010 "This is yours" implies one. I would say his unique ability to consistently overgeneralize is another. Plus he smells, and his mother dresses him funny.
Gene Frenkle Posted December 29, 2010 Posted December 29, 2010 Are you guys trying to say I'm not perfect? I like to think that I have the ability to consider evidence-based alternatives to what I'm "certain" of. If ever I were presented actual evidence, a compelling logical argument or even a reasoned hypothesis, I would modify my view accordingly. The longer I think about and debate this subject without being provided with such, the more ridiculous the "other side" seems to me. The more research I do related to the origins of modern religions, the incredible similarities between modern religions and ancient ones and the way human beings are simply wired to believe, the more obvious it becomes (to me) that it's all a bunch of man-made nonsense. The more religious-inspired abuse, killing and genocide I see, the more I'm convinced that religion does too much harm to be tolerated. The more people (especially kids) I see starving, suffering or dieing of horrific diseases, the more I'm convinced that no god worth my time is watching over us or taking an active interest in our lives. Religion is based on faith. Faith implies taking things at face value and not questioning, which goes against everything I believe in. I question everything and am especially wary of anything someone tells me that I need to just have faith in.
....lybob Posted December 29, 2010 Posted December 29, 2010 Plus he smells, and his mother dresses him funny. Tom's feet smell and his nose runs because his creator had his blueprints upside down.
Chef Jim Posted December 29, 2010 Posted December 29, 2010 Are you guys trying to say I'm not perfect? I like to think that I have the ability to consider evidence-based alternatives to what I'm "certain" of. If ever I were presented actual evidence, a compelling logical argument or even a reasoned hypothesis, I would modify my view accordingly. The longer I think about and debate this subject without being provided with such, the more ridiculous the "other side" seems to me. The more research I do related to the origins of modern religions, the incredible similarities between modern religions and ancient ones and the way human beings are simply wired to believe, the more obvious it becomes (to me) that it's all a bunch of man-made nonsense. The more religious-inspired abuse, killing and genocide I see, the more I'm convinced that religion does too much harm to be tolerated. The more people (especially kids) I see starving, suffering or dieing of horrific diseases, the more I'm convinced that no god worth my time is watching over us or taking an active interest in our lives. Religion is based on faith. Faith implies taking things at face value and not questioning, which goes against everything I believe in. I question everything and am especially wary of anything someone tells me that I need to just have faith in. The fact that you are not able to keep your beliefs to yourself regarding religion makes you as "ugly" as those you despise. As I've mentioned before it's very unbecoming.
DC Tom Posted December 29, 2010 Posted December 29, 2010 Religion is based on faith. Faith implies taking things at face value and not questioning, which goes against everything I believe in. Seriously, you don't see the contradiction here?
Gene Frenkle Posted December 29, 2010 Posted December 29, 2010 Seriously, you don't see the contradiction here? Because I used the word believe? The fact that you are not able to keep your beliefs to yourself regarding religion makes you as "ugly" as those you despise. As I've mentioned before it's very unbecoming. Like I said, I dislike religion, not religious people.
Chef Jim Posted December 29, 2010 Posted December 29, 2010 Because I used the word believe? Like I said, I dislike religion, not religious people. Sorry man I've read the things you say to religious people here. You don't like them. If you did like them you'd let it go and not talk about it. I'm just as much a non-believer as you but I don't hold it against those that are believers. You hold it against them so you do dislike them or at least that aspect of them. I actually respect that part of them.
....lybob Posted December 29, 2010 Posted December 29, 2010 Gene, their basic point is let us punch you but don't punch us back- or we will cry and carry on.
Gene Frenkle Posted December 29, 2010 Posted December 29, 2010 Sorry man I've read the things you say to religious people here. You don't like them. If you did like them you'd let it go and not talk about it. I'm just as much a non-believer as you but I don't hold it against those that are believers. You hold it against them so you do dislike them or at least that aspect of them. I actually respect that part of them. I don't like religion. I like plenty of religious people. I don't know how much more plain I can be about it than that. If I get a bit heated and insulting sometimes it's because I REALLY don't like religion. You're completely right about one thing: I have no respect for blind faith. I think I have some idea of why people believe in stuff that seems irrational to me, so I don't hold it against them - I just try to change their minds (in the right setting). In real life, for the most part, I pretty much ignore it. I understand that people don't like having their belief systems held up to scrutiny, so I'm rarely offended by personal attacks. If I didn't respect someone's intelligence or potential for critical thought, I would not make the effort.
Chef Jim Posted December 29, 2010 Posted December 29, 2010 I don't like religion. I like plenty of religious people. I don't know how much more plain I can be about it than that. If I get a bit heated and insulting sometimes it's because I REALLY don't like religion. You're completely right about one thing: I have no respect for blind faith. I think I have some idea of why people believe in stuff that seems irrational to me, so I don't hold it against them - I just try to change their minds (in the right setting). In real life, for the most part, I pretty much ignore it. I understand that people don't like having their belief systems held up to scrutiny, so I'm rarely offended by personal attacks. If I didn't respect someone's intelligence or potential for critical thought, I would not make the effort. We know...we know. As I mentioned the fact that you continuously go on and on about this has just become a bore.
Gene Frenkle Posted December 29, 2010 Posted December 29, 2010 We know...we know. As I mentioned the fact that you continuously go on and on about this has just become a bore. The ignore button is your friend. I'd be sad, but I would get over it eventually. As not to bore you all, I'll stay out of this for a while (again)...
Booster4324 Posted December 29, 2010 Posted December 29, 2010 I don't like religion. I like plenty of religious people. I don't know how much more plain I can be about it than that. If I get a bit heated and insulting sometimes it's because I REALLY don't like religion. You're completely right about one thing: I have no respect for blind faith. I think I have some idea of why people believe in stuff that seems irrational to me, so I don't hold it against them - I just try to change their minds (in the right setting). In real life, for the most part, I pretty much ignore it. I understand that people don't like having their belief systems held up to scrutiny, so I'm rarely offended by personal attacks. If I didn't respect someone's intelligence or potential for critical thought, I would not make the effort. I have <insert group you wish to discriminate against> friends.
....lybob Posted December 29, 2010 Posted December 29, 2010 We know...we know. As I mentioned the fact that you continuously go on and on about this has just become a bore. You can't argue with Chef on this, on all things boring he's an expert.
Gene Frenkle Posted December 29, 2010 Posted December 29, 2010 I have <insert group you wish to discriminate against> friends. </staying-out-of-this-for-a-while> Actually, I have mostly religious friends. Remember, that doesn't make them all bad people. <staying-out-of-this-for-a-while>
OGTEleven Posted December 29, 2010 Posted December 29, 2010 (edited) I always enjoy your responses and think you should post here more often. I've thought a lot about the question of free will, and I don't think there is a good way to definitively prove or disprove predetermination either way. In the case where god exists, if god is omniscient and omnipotent, how can we possibly have free will? It seems to me that time is simply a variable and moving backward in time means returning the universe to the exact state it was at that time. Conversely, it seems to me that moving forward in time means advancing the universe to the exact state that it "will be" at that time. In other words, were it possible to travel backward and forward in time at will, then time is continuous and the state of the universe is predetermined at any point in time. If that's the case, there is no case for free will, just our perception of free will. It probably can't be answered either way, but I don't think you need god to have predetermination, just cause and effect. Thanks for the nice words. I understand your thoughts about predetermination and whether it is consistent with the concept of God. There are certainly some points there which need to be addressed for believers. I have my thoughts but have no illusions that they could ever be proven. Maybe I missed it in your post, but I personally cannnot come to grips with free will even being possible in a universe without God (an atheist universe if you will). I am interested in your thoughts about that. To me, if someone is an atheist, they simply must be someone who believes in predetermination. I'm not clear whether you believe that. I am not trying to set up some trap, just interested in your thoughts. If you even believe free will is a remote possibility, how could it be without God? Edited December 29, 2010 by OGTEleven
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