Official Shanahan Thread

[JohnC]

Worse than 3 wins? How is his 3-4 defense worse than ours? We have the worst run defense in the league. Our pass defense is propped up in the rankings mainly because teams pass on us fewer times than any team in the league. We surrender more points than the Skins. They create more turnovers. Their passing game may suck, but they pass for more yards per game than we do.

 

Both HC's walked into bad teams. Shanahan hired his son (dumb move). CG hired a token OC and an ineffective nobody for DC--and that poor judgement has hurt a team that decided to go to a new defensive system, current roster be damned.

 

The problem for Shanahan is compounded by the public perception of his team (a huge national following) and his owner. The Skins, a once and, fairly recently, proud SB dynasty has very public failings due to their very high profile. So much more is expected from that team. Their flamboyant owner fails spectacularly and that makes everyone else feel good. The Bills owner is an absentee landlord who is rarely seen in public and likely is unknown by most of the football watching people in this country. The national image of the Bills and Buffalo is not quite that of the Skins and Washington, DC. When the Bills fail, it is expected. It is done mainly in obscurity as far as the rest of the nation is concerned. There is absolutely no pressure to win NOW (or even "next year")--even from the fan base, based on the comments on boards like this and the fact that the Bills still sell a lot of seats for meaningless games year after year.

 

My guess is that the rabid Skins fan, as much as he is going off on Shanahan, is not pining for our HC instead (assuming he even knows who our HC is).

 

It's the way of the world...

 

The Doc likes to point the finger outward instead of looking in the mirror. The same rigid standards he has for others don't apply to the hometown. Is that being near sighted or far sighted? I get confused which is which. LOL

[PromoTheRobot]

The schadenfreude isn't so much directed at the Redskins as it is toward the ranters here who posted ad nauseum how the Bills were doomed without Shanny. The same people who say "who me?" when the facts reveal themselves. Probably the same people howling for Luck now.

 

PTR

[JohnC]

The schadenfreude isn't so much directed at the Redskins as it is toward the ranters here who posted ad nauseum how the Bills were doomed without Shanny. The same people who say "who me?" when the facts reveal themselves. Probably the same people howling for Luck now.

 

PTR

 

What facts are being revealed? The Skins, as are the Bills, are in the first year of a multiple year rebuilding process.

 

As I stated in numerous postings I never felt that MS was suited for the Buffalo job. But that doesn't mean that he isn't up to the task of turning around a dysfunctional franchise in Washington. The so called controversy and turmoil going on in Washington is part of the cleansing process of reworking the roster. Dramatically changing the culture in a pampered organization was never going to be a smooth endeavor.

 

Shanahan has a rule that if you don't practice during the week you don't play. Some of the the pampered high priced players found that change in policy difficult to stomach. Haynesworth learned quickly that the rule applied to everyone, even fat slobs like him. Not being on the active roster for a game certainly gave him a jolt. Now the jerk-off DT is gone.

 

The Bills and Skins have major challenges in rebuilding very troubled franchises. It is not an easy task. The fairest way to judge the success or failure of each operation is to give it at least a few years before declaring anyone a success or failure.

Edited December 15, 2010 by JohnC

[Doc]

You are mischaracterizing what is going on under Allen/Shanahan regime. This new regime did not pursue high priced free agents in the offseason. They are taking a very old roster with expensive players such as Haynesworth and Portis and systematically purging them. Over the next year or two this team will get younger with fewer high profile free agent acquisitions.

 

Shanahan just took over last year. What ddid you expect in his first year of a rebuilding project? Miracles? The Bills have won 3 games so far in a concluding season. If you are going to be harsh in your view of the Washington project are you going to use the same standard for Gailey/Nix in their first year rebuilding project?

 

The rebuilding process takes time and a sound strategy. Declarations of success or failure at this point are a little premature.

At the very least John, the Redskins' offense should be one of the better ones in the league. Not in the bottom five and definitely not worse than it was last year. Especially since Shanahana went out and got a high-priced/profile QB. And at present, he has no QB of the future, or at least isn't trying to groom anyone (outside of Grossman). That is what should be most disconcerting to Skins fans. So too should be the performance of the defense (see below).

 

Worse than 3 wins? How is his 3-4 defense worse than ours? We have the worst run defense in the league. Our pass defense is propped up in the rankings mainly because teams pass on us fewer times than any team in the league. We surrender more points than the Skins. They create more turnovers. Their passing game may suck, but they pass for more yards per game than we do.

 

Both HC's walked into bad teams. Shanahan hired his son (dumb move). CG hired a token OC and an ineffective nobody for DC--and that poor judgement has hurt a team that decided to go to a new defensive system, current roster be damned.

 

The problem for Shanahan is compounded by the public perception of his team (a huge national following) and his owner. The Skins, a once and, fairly recently, proud SB dynasty has very public failings due to their very high profile. So much more is expected from that team. Their flamboyant owner fails spectacularly and that makes everyone else feel good. The Bills owner is an absentee landlord who is rarely seen in public and likely is unknown by most of the football watching people in this country. The national image of the Bills and Buffalo is not quite that of the Skins and Washington, DC. When the Bills fail, it is expected. It is done mainly in obscurity as far as the rest of the nation is concerned. There is absolutely no pressure to win NOW (or even "next year")--even from the fan base, based on the comments on boards like this and the fact that the Bills still sell a lot of seats for meaningless games year after year.

 

My guess is that the rabid Skins fan, as much as he is going off on Shanahan, is not pining for our HC instead (assuming he even knows who our HC is).

 

It's the way of the world...

Wait, giving up the most rushing yards in the NFL is worse than giving up the most yards period in the NFL? In case you missed it, the Redskins are ranked dead last in yards given-up, at almost 395 yards per game! Last year they were ranked 10th. So yes, moving to the 3-4 was a disaster, seeing as they lost no one of importance on defense over the off-season, while the Bills lost their best pass-rusher and are playing a much harder schedule. Nevermind the pathetic performance of the Redskins' offense.

 

I'm sure Redskins fans are pining for the coach they thought they were getting. I don't know if many Bills fans are still pining for Shanahan, given how horribly the season has gone for the Redskins.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I'll admit I was reveling in the misfortunes of the Redskins. I've hated them ever since we lost in the Super Bowl to them. Plus their unis are ugly, their obstinance in maintaining their dubious team name is more fodder, and their owner (in spite of his obvious desire to win) is one of the few owners along with Jerry Jones that I just love to see mess up. I admit it.

 

Their big money futility and succession of big-name failed coaches (Norv Turner, Marty Schottenheimer, Steve Spurrier, Joe Gibbs, and now Shanny) is endlessly entertaining to me. I love that their approach, diametrically opposed to that of the Bills, has yielded only 5 more wins (85-80) than the Bills since Snyder bought the team 12 years ago. I guess misery loves company. Especially rich company.

 

Also, I've written many times about my suspicion as to Shanny's capabilities. Bottom line, I think he's overrated. Regardless, he's the sort of type A, autocratic, egotistical prick that I personally love to hate. I'm not the first to dub him "Rat Face" but I do call him that. He obviously has a real Napoleonic complex which has shown itself repeatedly in his inability to manage egos and his arrogance in hiring his son (I'm also offended by nepotism) to run the offense.

 

Finally as others have mentioned, I admit to (not proud of) thumbing my nose at the "we must hire a big-name coach" crowd" here in Bills Nation. Some of those people I respect as fans but I guess I'm annoyed by casual fans who only understand things like name recognition and hyperbole. Pittsburgh hired Bill Cowher when he was an unknown. Same with Mike Tomlin. Bill Belichick was hired out of the recycle bin after a failed tenure in Cleveland. I really liked the Bills approach of hiring good, solid football men whose reputation amongst their peers was much higher than their reputation amongst fans. I resented those who felt the need to hire a big name coach simply to satisfy their own feelings of inadequacy and their lack of knowledge of the game. I admit it.

 

So I have prejudices and biases. I'm not proud of that but it is what it is. I hate the Redskins and Daniel Snyder and I objectively think Shanny sucks as a person and is overrated as a coach. Will he turn the franchise around? That remains to be seen but so far I'm liking what I'm seeing from them.

[tennesseeboy]

I was against Shanahan as Bills head coach, but then I was against Gailey as head coach. Gailey has earned my respect in the second half of this season and I'm quite comfortable with him as coach, although I would have preferred Fewell. Actually I'm with the Senator in wanting Mike Leach, but I think we might be a small group at that.

[PromoTheRobot]

JohnC your double standard is amusing but not surprising.

 

PTR

[Sisyphean Bills]

The schadenfreude isn't so much directed at the Redskins as it is toward the ranters here who posted ad nauseum how the Bills were doomed without Shanny. The same people who say "who me?" when the facts reveal themselves. Probably the same people howling for Luck now.

 

PTR

 

Oh. So, it's not that you weren't a little butt hurt that Shanahan laughed off the Bills courtship?

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/116745-do-you-think-nix-would-like-to-beat-the-redskins/page__view__findpost__p__1922785

 

Speaking of waiting for "when the facts reveal themselves", 8 or 9 wins, eh?

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/116091-better-worse-or-the-same/page__view__findpost__p__1911568

 

Still, it's a great point. Who'd think posters would express opinions on a football message board?

[PromoTheRobot]

Oh. So, it's not that you weren't a little butt hurt that Shanahan laughed off the Bills courtship?

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/116745-do-you-think-nix-would-like-to-beat-the-redskins/page__view__findpost__p__1922785

 

Speaking of waiting for "when the facts reveal themselves", 8 or 9 wins, eh?

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/116091-better-worse-or-the-same/page__view__findpost__p__1911568

 

Still, it's a great point. Who'd think posters would express opinions on a football message board?

Ha ha! Is that the best you can come up with? You really showed me!

 

I don't get how the first post contradicts anything I'm saying now. As for the second post I admit not taking into account the difficulty the switch to a 3-4 D would cause. Many early games were lost because of defense. We could easily have 6 wins but for a few key breakdowns.

 

Shall I dredge up some of your old gems for comparison?

 

PTR

[Doc]

Oh. So, it's not that you weren't a little butt hurt that Shanahan laughed off the Bills courtship?

Most people will develop a dislike for those who spurn them. That is, those who don't feel they deserve to be spurned.

[Mr. WEO]

At the very least John, the Redskins' offense should be one of the better ones in the league. Not in the bottom five and definitely not worse than it was last year. Especially since Shanahana went out and got a high-priced/profile QB. And at present, he has no QB of the future, or at least isn't trying to groom anyone (outside of Grossman). That is what should be most disconcerting to Skins fans. So too should be the performance of the defense (see below).

 

 

Wait, giving up the most rushing yards in the NFL is worse than giving up the most yards period in the NFL? In case you missed it, the Redskins are ranked dead last in yards given-up, at almost 395 yards per game! Last year they were ranked 10th. So yes, moving to the 3-4 was a disaster, seeing as they lost no one of importance on defense over the off-season, while the Bills lost their best pass-rusher and are playing a much harder schedule. Nevermind the pathetic performance of the Redskins' offense.

 

I'm sure Redskins fans are pining for the coach they thought they were getting. I don't know if many Bills fans are still pining for Shanahan, given how horribly the season has gone for the Redskins.

Their offense should go right to "one of the better ones in the league" just because they picked up McNabb? Well, they are in the top 10 (up from 16th)in passing offense--all while getting sacked 37 times. Their offensive is not "worse than it was last year". This year, the Skins are scoring more points, have more yards and more 1st downs per game. So you're wrong--not worse, slightly better.

 

Why they can't run the ball with Ryan Torain and Keiland Williams is a complete mystery, right? I'm guessing they will draft their QB of the future next year (did you really expect them to do it this year?). Snyder is a "win now" guy (despite his poor record) as opposed to Ralph's "get back to me in 3 years, if I'm still alive" kind of guy. I'm guessing MS said "we need a franchise QB now" and McNabb was available. That's how Snyder does things.

 

Yes, the Skins have given up 31 more yards per game--if you want to hang your entire argument on that split pubic hair (clearly they both suck)--heck, you might as well. But you missed that the Skins give up fewer points by a FG. The Bills defense got worse despite, as many have pointed out here, not being a true 3-4 defensive change. This cannot be blamed in the majority on the loss of Schobel.

 

As far as strength of schedule is concerned, the NFCE is no pushover. The AFCE looked much more impressive a few weeks ago, no it looks like a one team division. I would say the Cowboys look more potent than either the Fins or the Jets at this point. Detroit, Cleveland, Cincy, Minny are mediocre to awful. Not "much harder" than the skins.

 

The Skins fans may not favor Shanny right now, but my guess is that if you offered them a swap with us, they would turn it down.

 

I really liked the Bills approach of hiring good, solid football men whose reputation amongst their peers was much higher than their reputation amongst fans.

This approach has had obvious results over the past decade.

 

The jury is out on Gailey, but his OC and DC I doubt would fit your description either.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Mr. WEO

[finknottle]

I live in DC and nothing makes me happier (or almost nothing) than seeing the Skins continue to have major trouble!!

 

Go Bills!

 

I'm in the DC area too.

 

In recent years there have been several threads about Bill's fans losing interest in their team... I have to admit that I fall in that category. (Tho this season is rekindling the excitement!) I get more pleasure watching the Redskins fail as a franchise, and listening to the recriminations on talk radio midway through the season, than I generally do following a Bills win... and every few years I wait with fingers crossed and baited breath to see if the latest coach will work out, hoping it is merely the latest chapter in dysfunctionality.

 

The interesting thing is that this is not uncommon in DC, with so many transplants from other areas of the country. The nonstop blather in the local media about Redskin tradition really gets on our nerves.

[jester43]

The situation in DC just shows - you can't buy your way into a championship. Snyder just has not learned that you build through a solid front office, coaching and the draft.

ralph wilson never learned this either.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Most people will develop a dislike for those who spurn them. That is, those who don't feel they deserve to be spurned.

I didn't say I liked the fact Shanahan turned the Bills down. But then, I know the difference between emotions like pleasure and misery and debating arguments.

 

Ha ha! Is that the best you can come up with? You really showed me!

 

I don't get how the first post contradicts anything I'm saying now. As for the second post I admit not taking into account the difficulty the switch to a 3-4 D would cause. Many early games were lost because of defense. We could easily have 6 wins but for a few key breakdowns.

 

Shall I dredge up some of your old gems for comparison?

 

PTR

Ah, yes. Break out the coulda, woulda arguments. Good work, Fact 'bot.

 

And, if you're trying to imply I wrote "the Bills are doomed without Mike Shanahan", I'll save you the time. I never wrote that (until this post, technically speaking).

[Ramius]

You are mischaracterizing what is going on under Allen/Shanahan regime. This new regime did not pursue high priced free agents in the offseason. They are taking a very old roster with expensive players such as Haynesworth and Portis and systematically purging them. Over the next year or two this team will get younger with fewer high profile free agent acquisitions.

 

 

 

Shanahan just took over last year. What ddid you expect in his first year of a rebuilding project? Miracles? The Bills have won 3 games so far in a concluding season. If you are going to be harsh in your view of the Washington project are you going to use the same standard for Gailey/Nix in their first year rebuilding project?

 

The rebuilding process takes time and a sound strategy. Declarations of success or failure at this point are a little premature.

 

Point 1 - how exactly are the skins "re-building" or going to "re-build" when they've traded away how many picks last offseason for McNabb and Jammal Brown? They've traded away their 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round picks in the 2011 draft for those 2 players. Sure sounds like things have changed.

 

As to your second point, i notice how it is too soon to declare the skins a success or failure, but you've had plenty of time to deem the Bills a failure.

[Buffalonian-at-Heart]

The situation in DC just shows - you can't buy your way into a championship. Snyder just has not learned that you build through a solid front office, coaching and the draft.

 

I think Snyder has learned that, that's why he brought in Bruce Allen and made him the GM. This is the first person Snyder has given the GM title to. Then obviously Allen fired Zorn and brought in Shanahan and revamped the entire coaching staff. But what this does point to is, that it's the right people that make it work. Sometimes an inconspicuous hire like Gailey ends up being the best thing. I for one think Nix is going to give Gailey an opportunity to work with a drafted QB and I think Gailey is going to figure out a perfect way to use Fitz and the new QB to get this team to a place they are competing for the division.

[Doc]

Their offense should go right to "one of the better ones in the league" just because they picked up McNabb? Well, they are in the top 10 (up from 16th)in passing offense--all while getting sacked 37 times. Their offensive is not "worse than it was last year". This year, the Skins are scoring more points, have more yards and more 1st downs per game. So you're wrong--not worse, slightly better.

 

Why they can't run the ball with Ryan Torain and Keiland Williams is a complete mystery, right? I'm guessing they will draft their QB of the future next year (did you really expect them to do it this year?). Snyder is a "win now" guy (despite his poor record) as opposed to Ralph's "get back to me in 3 years, if I'm still alive" kind of guy. I'm guessing MS said "we need a franchise QB now" and McNabb was available. That's how Snyder does things.

 

Yes, the Skins have given up 31 more yards per game--if you want to hang your entire argument on that split pubic hair (clearly they both suck)--heck, you might as well. But you missed that the Skins give up fewer points by a FG. The Bills defense got worse despite, as many have pointed out here, not being a true 3-4 defensive change. This cannot be blamed in the majority on the loss of Schobel.

 

As far as strength of schedule is concerned, the NFCE is no pushover. The AFCE looked much more impressive a few weeks ago, no it looks like a one team division. I would say the Cowboys look more potent than either the Fins or the Jets at this point. Detroit, Cleveland, Cincy, Minny are mediocre to awful. Not "much harder" than the skins.

 

The Skins fans may not favor Shanny right now, but my guess is that if you offered them a swap with us, they would turn it down.

So the addition of an upper-tier QB like McNabb doesn't indict an offensive genius like Shanahan, who has done more with less, when his offense is the 5th worst in scoring and a couple spots worse than last year?

 

Wow, just wow!

 

So what was Shanahan supposed to bring to the Skins (or Bills)? A high-priced name? Well, it looks like he's succeeded in that respect!

 

Again doc, the Skins are 32nd in yards surrendered on defense using the 3-4 whereas they were 10th last year with the 4-3. And Shanahan continues to insist on sticking with the 3-4. It's a disaster, whether you want to admit it or not.

 

I'm sure about the same number of Skins fans would want to swap for Gailey as there are Bills fans who would want to swap for Shanahan. But most would probably want to swap for someone better than either.

[JohnC]

JohnC your double standard is amusing but not surprising.

 

PTR

 

How so? My point is very simple. Even you should be able to understand it. Both the Bills and the Redskins are going through a rebuilding process. Making a judgment in the early stage of the rebuilding process is foolish.

[PromoTheRobot]

How so? My point is very simple. Even you should be able to understand it. Both the Bills and the Redskins are going through a rebuilding process. Making a judgment in the early stage of the rebuilding process is foolish.

The double standard comes in when you give Shanahan a mulligan but call Chan Gailey a failure.

 

PTR

[JohnC]

 

 

I don't get how the first post contradicts anything I'm saying now. As for the second post I admit not taking into account the difficulty the switch to a 3-4 D would cause. Many early games were lost because of defense. We could easily have 6 wins but for a few key breakdowns.

 

 

 

PTR

 

Isn't a generation of excuses more than enough for you? The Bills lose not because of schemes but because of a lack of talent. Hopefully, there is now a coherent plan to upgrade the roster. Making lame excuses accomplishes nothing good. Getting better players is the solution.