Whitner gone?

[Bill from NYC]

So, you watch the games and think most of Whitner's tackles come after he screwed up? Really?

 

Wow. You've really gone 'round the bend, Bill.

 

A great portion of his tackles do come after pass completions. Yes, this is true. Say about me as you will, but you remain consistent. You have defended Whitner since the day he was stupidly selected, as well as the entire 06 draft, right? Or, have you changed your mind about that stellar display of football savy by Levy/Jauron?

 

Quite simply, do you think that Whitner is above average in pass coverage? Do you think he is above average in terms of intercepting the football? What exactly is it that he does SO well that drives you to label him as "far above average?"

 

I can't wait to hear this......

[Marv Levy]

I can't say I will miss Donte if he walks. Another wasted pick by the Bills decade of futility.

[The Dean]

A great portion of his tackles do come after pass completions. Yes, this is true. Say about me as you will, but you remain consistent. You have defended Whitner since the day he was stupidly selected, as well as the entire 06 draft, right? Or, have you changed your mind about that stellar display of football savy by Levy/Jauron?

 

Quite simply, do you think that Whitner is above average in pass coverage? Do you think he is above average in terms of intercepting the football? What exactly is it that he does SO well that drives you to label him as "far above average?"

 

I can't wait to hear this......

 

 

For a (predominately) Strong Safety he is excellent in coverage. He isn't a shut-down corner (virtually no SS's are) but he is just fine in coverage. So good, that he has been used as a FS and even a nickel corner by Bills coaches over the years. I will say he does sometimes have trouble with the bigger and quicker TEs. Fact is, so do most safeties.

 

What you seem to miss is, Whitner typically STONES the receiver right after a catch is made, if it is made. He rarely gives up RAC. Winfield is similar in his CB coverage, BTW. And, like Winfield, Whitner is not the kind of DB that gets a lot of turnovers. If there is a real hole in his game it is that he misses some opportunities for turnovers.

 

Turnovers are big deals, I admit that. But not every player who gets turnovers is a sound defensive player. Byrd is one example. Last year he was often a liability in coverage. He certainly redeemed himself by being in the right place at the right time, and making the big play when it presented itself. Nobody who carefully watches DBs would tell you he was a solid DB, though. He wasn't. Remember Kelso and Shultz when they played Safety for the Bills? They also were good at getting turnovers, but were far from sound every down defensive backs.

 

And let's not underestimate how important tackles are for a defensive player. I remember a game this year where Whitner made three touchdown saving tackles on one drive. Guess what? The opposing team eventually scored a TD on that drive. It wasn't Whitner's fault they eventually scored. But for those who only care about highlight hits, turnovers and such, those tackles weren't even noticed. I think you may have even singled him out as a goat in that game, because he dropped a potential INT. If I'm not mistaken, you also called him out in a game when he had EIGHTEEN tackles (against the Steelers). If I am wrong, I apologize. If you didn't single him out for making EIGHTEEN tackles in one game, then I take back the apology. You always make a point of highlighting any mistake he makes. But rarely do you point out his regular solid efforts.

 

Most of Whitner's tackles come on plays where he isn't the defensive player with the primary responsibility. That means he is pursuing, and mostly it means he actually makes the tackle. This on a team that right now seems to have some tackling issues.

 

I know you will never forgive him for being drafted early in the first round. But that happened years ago. Now you should be looking at him as a Buffalo Bills who is one of the anchors of the defense. Think of it this way. If the Bills had drafted Ngata, then he'd be the guy leaving to FA when his contract is up, and the Bills can hardly afford to lose good linemen.

[Mark Vader]

I would have considered Pat Williams to be elite when he left, Greer too, although I think both were under rated by the rest of the NFL. I would add Jim Leonard to a “close to elite” list and he was under rated by us and media. By that same degree, Clements and Peters were definitely thought to be elite by the rest of the NFL, but I don’t think they were and neither did most fans.

 

 

 

But the best statement you made was that “the Bills can’t even evaluate their own roster” That is very very true. I learned something about the NFL I didn’t know before this year – that the team of Scouts that are employed by the Bills actually scout the Bills throughout TC and the season. They put in their 2 cents to the coaching staff as to who should be cut, start, etc. Now it is all starting to make sense to me – no matter who the coaching staff is, they are getting bad advice from the same scouts. They start A-train over Fred Jackson then draft Maybin over Orakpo. These guys are a big bunch of maroons. Bring back Pat Williams, Jim Leonard, Jabari Greer and see how good the team is.

I agree and disagree with you on this point.

 

Letting go of Pat Williams was indeed a mistake. I do'nt really miss Jim Leonhard that much, and while Jabari Greer was a tough loss, I feel that Drayton Florence has filled that void and I am not ready to dismiss Leodis McKelvin.

 

Drafting Maybin over Orakpo is a glaring mistake. I was not happy with the drafting of Maybin, because I knew he would not be an instant impact player, and we'd have to wait until his 3rd season until we saw any kind of impact from him.

 

I completely disagree of your assesment of starting A-Train over Fred Jackson, and here's why. Yes Jackson was just as good if not a better runner than A-Train. However, during that period A-Train was way ahead of Jackson on being a complete RB in the league. A-Train was a better receiver and a much better blocker than Jackson was. Especially when it came to picking up the blitz. There were times where Jackson was horrible in picking up the blitz. Now Jackson did learn and became a better all-around running back, yet earlier on A-Train was the better player.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I agree and disagree with you on this point.

 

Letting go of Pat Williams was indeed a mistake. I do'nt really miss Jim Leonhard that much, and while Jabari Greer was a tough loss, I feel that Drayton Florence has filled that void and I am not ready to dismiss Leodis McKelvin.

 

Drafting Maybin over Orakpo is a glaring mistake. I was not happy with the drafting of Maybin, because I knew he would not be an instant impact player, and we'd have to wait until his 3rd season until we saw any kind of impact from him.

 

I completely disagree of your assesment of starting A-Train over Fred Jackson, and here's why. Yes Jackson was just as good if not a better runner than A-Train. However, during that period A-Train was way ahead of Jackson on being a complete RB in the league. A-Train was a better receiver and a much better blocker than Jackson was. Especially when it came to picking up the blitz. There were times where Jackson was horrible in picking up the blitz. Now Jackson did learn and became a better all-around running back, yet earlier on A-Train was the better player.

Exactly correct. In fact you could say that Fred Jackson is as good a pro as he is because of the time he spent learning from The A Train. Thank goodness the regime at the time recognized Freddy's potential and allowed him to gestate within the organization.

[nucci]

A great portion of his tackles do come after pass completions. Yes, this is true. Say about me as you will, but you remain consistent. You have defended Whitner since the day he was stupidly selected, as well as the entire 06 draft, right? Or, have you changed your mind about that stellar display of football savy by Levy/Jauron?

 

Quite simply, do you think that Whitner is above average in pass coverage? Do you think he is above average in terms of intercepting the football? What exactly is it that he does SO well that drives you to label him as "far above average?"

 

I can't wait to hear this......

I'm not defending Whitner but who makes tackles after an incompletion?

[eball]

I'm not defending Whitner but who makes tackles after an incompletion?

Classic.

[marsadale]

I'd agree with that.

good taste in lyrics bro

[RealityCheck]

Whitner is not a great safety, apparently the Bills recognize this. Another aspect of how much the team will cough up to keep him is what happens to the quality of his play for the rest of the season now that he shed a few tears on twitter. Why can't some of these players negotiate like men and let the agents do their job without involving the media.

[Ramius]

I'm not defending Whitner but who makes tackles after an incompletion?

 

That's awesome! My candidate for post of the year.

[Bill from NYC]

That's awesome! My candidate for post of the year.

 

It would be, whereas you are a long time, staunch defender of Levy, Jauron, the 06 draft, and Whitner as the #8 selection of a draft.

 

Whitner gives up long completions and touchdowns. Then, he tackles people (often in the endzone) and sometimes draws penalties for doing so. He doesn't intercept passes, and Sammy Morris (not Earl Campbell mind you) flattened him like a pancake on a run.

 

Were it not for the Bills propensity for wasting top draft picks on defensive backs (a philosophy lauded by you and The Dean), I would wish that the Bills would let him walk. Your hero, Donte Whitner, is a symbol of what is wrong with the Bills, and he was brought to town by the losers who you have defended as if they are your children.

 

If you need support when Lil' Donte leaves town, feel free to send me a PM and I will try to walk you through it.

[shoretalk]

Why this team can't keep a good Defensive Back for many years?

Remember Winfield, Clements, Greer and now Whitner.

So enjoy Jairus Byrd for the next 2 season, cause he will going to go elsewhere.

We have kept a strong defensive backfield for years even with our losses ... Winfield's money demands were beyond anything anyone on this board would view as acceptable given the number of good d'backs in this league. Clements was almost in Winfield's category. Now Greer, he's one I would have kept and it was a mistake of the Bills to lose him.

 

As for Dante ... all depends on the money. He is not in the top 10 safeties in the league. I cannot imagine any team grabbing him for elite dollars ... of course we have no sense of what the Bills are offering. Would love to see him back because he is a 'Buffalo-attitude' guy but let's not break the bank for him ... I want a monster LB or DE.

 

As for Byrd ... I am giving him his sophomore slump but he's not a factor at all this season until the last game so am not about to think about 'enjoying' him because this season I haven't at all. No tight end coverage ... getting to receivers after large gains or touchdowns ... not stopping the run early in the runs development ... dropped interceptions or missed interception opportunities (oh wait, I could be talking about Dante too ....)

[Bill from NYC]

For a (predominately) Strong Safety he is excellent in coverage. He isn't a shut-down corner (virtually no SS's are) but he is just fine in coverage.

 

No Brian, he sucks in coverage. He is a liability in coverage, and he is small to boot. He would be better if there was more pass rush, but even at that, he has no business getting torched as often as he does.

 

Would you be happy if we signed him for huge dollars and brought back Marv and Dick? You could do your favorite draft (2006) all over again!

[Sabre Bill]

8 pages on Whitner?

 

THIS is why he tweets any thought that pops into that brain.

 

Funny, I think he's too patient on the field and commits late.

 

And, PLEASE, someone teach him how to wrap his arms while tackling!

 

 

It's a business and only easy deals are gonna get done between now and the new CBA. His deal has to be complicated. He got paid too well at first, so paying him reasonably now will look like mistreatment.

[Ramius]

It would be, whereas you are a long time, staunch defender of Levy, Jauron, the 06 draft, and Whitner as the #8 selection of a draft.

 

Whitner gives up long completions and touchdowns. Then, he tackles people (often in the endzone) and sometimes draws penalties for doing so. He doesn't intercept passes, and Sammy Morris (not Earl Campbell mind you) flattened him like a pancake on a run.

 

Were it not for the Bills propensity for wasting top draft picks on defensive backs (a philosophy lauded by you and The Dean), I would wish that the Bills would let him walk. Your hero, Donte Whitner, is a symbol of what is wrong with the Bills, and he was brought to town by the losers who you have defended as if they are your children.

 

If you need support when Lil' Donte leaves town, feel free to send me a PM and I will try to walk you through it.

 

I've never been a defender of Jauron. And i've never claimed that drafting Whitner over Ngata was a smart move. It wasn't. What i do defend against, however, is people that irrationally bash whitner (like yourself), because they were and still are mad over the draft selection. It was 5 years ago. Get over it.

 

I actually try to look at and judge Whitner's play on the field based on his play on the field (which tells me this season has been his best), and not claim he sucks simply because he hasn't lived up to his draft selection. Whitner is not a top 3 safety, but he's easily a top 12 safety. Letting him walk would simply create another hole in a defense that doesn't need any more holes.

 

My question to you is this...since the Bills have neglected the front 7 in the past, why not keep the good players we have, and working on building the front 7 from this point forward? The 2011 Bills will be better off with Whitner + front 7 improvement than they will be with having to trying to replace Whitner along with adding front 7 help. We only have so many draft picks, so why not spend them where they are needed.

 

And, if you need support when we don't select an OT in round 1, feel free to send me a PM as well.

[JohnC]

No Brian, he sucks in coverage. He is a liability in coverage, and he is small to boot. He would be better if there was more pass rush, but even at that, he has no business getting torched as often as he does.

 

Would you be happy if we signed him for huge dollars and brought back Marv and Dick? You could do your favorite draft (2006) all over again!

 

You need to forget about the Levy/Jauron era taint associated with Whitner's selection. The critical issue regarding his retention is what are his contract expectations. The loqacious Donte is a mid-range caliber safety. That is where he should be paid. If his contract demands go beyond that then he should be dispatched. If his contract demands settle down to the mid-range level then I would have no problem retaining him. What this very mediocre franchise doesn't need is another hole to fill.

 

Your criticism of DW regularly being late to a play is not necessarily valid. The Bills are not noted for their ability to put meaningful pressure on the qb. That certainly has affected DW's coverage, and the other DBs as well. By upgrading the pressure the coverage will correspondingly improve.

 

You make a very potent point about the Levy/Jauron era. It was an unmitigated disaster which set the franchise back in years. The next few years will be dedicated to cleansing those very egregious and perplexing mistakes. The most appropriate response for those who were Jauron/Levy afficionados would be to remain silent and burrow themselves in a deep hole. There is nothing they can say to justify the carnage that past regime left.

[Coach Tuesday]

I will add that I have read that one of Nix's biggest concerns when he took over the GM job was that, looking around the league, he was amazed by the number of good players playing for other teams, who the Bills had let go. If that's truly his concern (and IMO it should be), then I'm hard-pressed to understand how they could let it happen again.

 

But we know they will. And not just with Whitner. There is a decent chance Florence leaves (and he has been the second best player on our defense for the last two years, behind Kyle), and perhaps Poz as well.

 

There continues to be a disconnect between the coaching/personnel staff and the accountants who whisper in Ralph's ear. Whether or not you believe Whitner is an "elite" safety or not, I think it's clear that Gailey wants him around. But Gailey won't be making the final call. Overdorf and Littman will.

[DrDawkinstein]

It should be required that people learn the difference between Strong Safety (more of an extra LB) and Free Safety (more of an extra CB) before they post in this thread. They are two completely different positions with different responsibilities and expectations.

 

Bringing up Free Safeties in conversations about Whitner is like trying to compare our LT Bell's play with Center Jeff Saturday. Sure theyre on the Offensive Line but they are completely different positions.

 

That being said, it shows how versatile Whitner can be, as we have plugged him into the FS position when we were strapped with injuries. And dude stepped in and played well, at a new position, without complaint.

 

Get over the draft shock.

 

Keep him.

[stony]

I've never been a defender of Jauron. And i've never claimed that drafting Whitner over Ngata was a smart move. It wasn't. What i do defend against, however, is people that irrationally bash whitner (like yourself), because they were and still are mad over the draft selection. It was 5 years ago. Get over it.

 

I actually try to look at and judge Whitner's play on the field based on his play on the field (which tells me this season has been his best), and not claim he sucks simply because he hasn't lived up to his draft selection. Whitner is not a top 3 safety, but he's easily a top 12 safety. Letting him walk would simply create another hole in a defense that doesn't need any more holes.

 

My question to you is this...since the Bills have neglected the front 7 in the past, why not keep the good players we have, and working on building the front 7 from this point forward? The 2011 Bills will be better off with Whitner + front 7 improvement than they will be with having to trying to replace Whitner along with adding front 7 help. We only have so many draft picks, so why not spend them where they are needed.

 

And, if you need support when we don't select an OT in round 1, feel free to send me a PM as well.

 

Exactly. No reason to make holes when there's enough to fill up front already. The Bills are a better team moving forward w/ him on the roster, thus allowing the FO to get bodies on the line.

 

For those who don't like Donte, don't let your hate cloud the fact there is no viable replacement on the roster that can step in and match his contributions to the team. It seems most of the haters are drawing from all five years instead of his season this year where his play is visibly better.

[nucci]

I will add that I have read that one of Nix's biggest concerns when he took over the GM job was that, looking around the league, he was amazed by the number of good players playing for other teams, who the Bills had let go. If that's truly his concern (and IMO it should be), then I'm hard-pressed to understand how they could let it happen again.

 

But we know they will. And not just with Whitner. There is a decent chance Florence leaves (and he has been the second best player on our defense for the last two years, behind Kyle), and perhaps Poz as well.

 

There continues to be a disconnect between the coaching/personnel staff and the accountants who whisper in Ralph's ear. Whether or not you believe Whitner is an "elite" safety or not, I think it's clear that Gailey wants him around. But Gailey won't be making the final call. Overdorf and Littman will.

And that is the major problem we have around here.