Coach Tuesday Posted December 16, 2010 Posted December 16, 2010 As Doc says above me Dean, only relevant he he wants to paid like he is still an elite player at his position. I think he has played well this year, and should be paid well, but not like an elite saftey I guarantee you some team will pay him top dollar. Just like Evans would be paid top dollar if we let him go, as many here would like. Just like Peters, Greer, Winfield and Clements got paid top dollar. You can argue whether or not these players "deserve" it, but the fact is they got it. The Bills don't set the market - the market sets the market. The Bills don't like to participate in that market and as a result, they continuously lose both good and mediocre players, who go on to have long, productive careers in other places (although perhaps not quite playing up to their contracts). I don't know why anyone cares whether a player is overpaid by Ralph. It's not like we're right up against the cap (there is no cap right now, anyhow), nor is it the case that Ralph will take the cost savings from letting Whitner walk and spend it elsewhere on the roster. Bills fans only want to root for underdog overachievers. Once a player gets paid, everyone turns on him. It's part of the bluecollar mentality that infects the fanbase. But it's assinine.
Jobu Posted December 16, 2010 Posted December 16, 2010 Why this team can't keep a good Defensive Back for many years? Remember Winfield, Clements, Greer and now Whitner. So enjoy Jairus Byrd for the next 2 season, cause he will going to go elsewhere. If Whitner was actually good, you might have a point. I would take George Wilson over Whitner any day. Whitner has been playing Safety a hell of a lot longer than Wilson. We maybe got two years of decent service out of him.
flopagamo Posted December 16, 2010 Posted December 16, 2010 As Doc says above me Dean, only relevant he he wants to paid like he is still an elite player at his position. I think he has played well this year, and should be paid well, but not like an elite saftey Exactly. BTW I hate twitter more every day.
plenzmd1 Posted December 16, 2010 Posted December 16, 2010 (edited) I guarantee you some team will pay him top dollar. Just like Evans would be paid top dollar if we let him go, as many here would like. Just like Peters, Greer, Winfield and Clements got paid top dollar. . Coach, I think the majority here would argue, as would I, that those are elite players, or least perceived to be elite..and we just do not see Whitner as elite, nor believe they rest of the NFL would. Now, if the story comes out Whitner was looking for money comparable to the average starting Strong Safety in the league, then I am 100% with you. But if thinks he is going to paid comparable to Troy or Ed Reed..then he is just high and basing his decision on the draft slot instead of actual production. Edited December 16, 2010 by plenzmd1
Saint Doug Posted December 16, 2010 Posted December 16, 2010 (edited) He's probably looking for more than the Bills feel he's worth. This is exactly what he is thinking. Truth is, Buffalo probably low-balled him and since he has now been "dissed" by this offer, he will now make it sound like he is the victim here. Because they offered him a contract not up to his standards, it is the Bills that don't want him, not Whitner turning the Bills down. But, I guess this is kinda good. I would rather hear about players complaining about their contract before they sign it, not 1-2 years after signing it. But, unfortunately, it occurs in both sets of circumstances. Edited December 16, 2010 by kas23
Fitzmagic Posted December 16, 2010 Posted December 16, 2010 Why this team can't keep a good Defensive Back for many years? Remember Winfield, Clements, Greer and now Whitner. So enjoy Jairus Byrd for the next 2 season, cause he will going to go elsewhere. Whitner shouldn't even be included in a sentence with those other players so... what point are you trying to make?
Coach Tuesday Posted December 16, 2010 Posted December 16, 2010 (edited) Coach, I think the majority here would argue, as would I, that those are elite players, or least perceived to be elite..and we just do not see Whitner as elite, nor believe they rest of the NFL would. Now, if the story comes out Whitner was looking for money comparable to the average starting Strong Safety in the league, then I am 100% with you. But if thinks he is going to paid comparable to Troy or Ed Reed..then he is just high and basing his decision on the draft slot instead of actual production. I disagree in one respect. When those other folks left, almost no one around here was willing to agree that they were "elite." It's only after their careers blossomed or continued to blossom in their new locations that it was finally acknowledged. Add Pat Williams to thie list as well. It's the same old story. The Bills can't evaluate their own roster, and even when they can, the accountants step in and draw lines in the sand. The same sand that some of you continue to stick your heads in. It just amazes me how cheap some of you are with Ralph's money. And then you complain that no one wants to play here and that we don't win any games. Edited December 16, 2010 by Coach Tuesday
Erik Posted December 16, 2010 Posted December 16, 2010 Right now we have at least three spots to fill in the front seven before contracts expire and then we have three contracts expiring at the end of the year on defense. That's six starters we'd need in the offseason. I'd feel a bit more comfortable if one of Whitner, Poz, or Florence was signed to a long term extension before the end of the season. My preference would probably be Poz, then Florence, then Whitner so this news doesn't disappoint me as much but I'd love to see some mvoement here. We're never going to improve if we jsut let our players walk after their rookie contracts because we will never run out of holes to fill.
BillsObserver Posted December 16, 2010 Posted December 16, 2010 Wow it's like someone hired a new GM in the past year or so and he's actually doing stuff I like (except extend Kelsay!!). Seriously now, I have nothing against Whitner or where he was drafted or how much he makes - the bottom line is the guy doesn't produce enough. He hits hard but he has NO knack for the ball. He's got a great attitude and work ethic it seems but I just don't believe he's good enough to keep at 5 million a year or whatever he's asking. Bye bye Donte, I won't miss you much. STEP UP MR WILSON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Coach Tuesday Posted December 16, 2010 Posted December 16, 2010 I guarantee you that Whitner will be harder to replace than Kelsay. This FO's priorities look just as screwy as the "previous" regime's.
Thoner7 Posted December 16, 2010 Posted December 16, 2010 No one has seemed to acknowledge that when Whitners contract is up at the end of this season he will be a RESTRICTED FA – as he has only 5 years in the league. With no CBA in place, a player needs 6 accrued season to be Unrestricted. Whitner is prob upset he won’t be getting FA money and will be tendered at a 3rd round level for about 950k - if I have my numbers right.
birdog1960 Posted December 16, 2010 Posted December 16, 2010 I disagree in one respect. When those other folks left, almost no one around here was willing to agree that they were "elite." It's only after their careers blossomed or continued to blossom in their new locations that it was finally acknowledged. Add Pat Williams to thie list as well. It's the same old story. The Bills can't evaluate their own roster, and even when they can, the accountants step in and draw lines in the sand. The same sand that some of you continue to stick your heads in. It just amazes me how cheap some of you are with Ralph's money. And then you complain that no one wants to play here and that we don't win any games. exactly. market value is what the highest bidding team will pay. i'll bet they won't offer whitner market value and that's a tired old losing tune.
Mr. WEO Posted December 16, 2010 Posted December 16, 2010 I guarantee you that Whitner will be harder to replace than Kelsay. This FO's priorities look just as screwy as the "previous" regime's. Whitner was pretty easily replaced by guys on our bench last season.
The Dean Posted December 16, 2010 Posted December 16, 2010 Coach, I think the majority here would argue, as would I, that those are elite players, or least perceived to be elite..and we just do not see Whitner as elite, nor believe they rest of the NFL would. Now, if the story comes out Whitner was looking for money comparable to the average starting Strong Safety in the league, then I am 100% with you. But if thinks he is going to paid comparable to Troy or Ed Reed..then he is just high and basing his decision on the draft slot instead of actual production. The FA market is an interesting thing. Players don't get paid simply on their worth compared to others at the same position. Their pay is also based on the need of the team signing the player and the number of good players available at the position. Furthermore, you really can't compare the contract of a player who is 2-3 years into a contract to one signing a contract today. As player salaries tend to raise every year, a "lesser" player might make as much as a premier player who is under contract...but not as much as if that premier player was signing a brand new contract. Whitner is not a premier safety. At least he hasn't been for the Bills for various reasons (I would argue some of those reasons were out of his control...but whatever). But if he were to play on the Raven's D, I think you would see a much different player. Remember the difference in Jim Leonhard's game after going to the Ravens (and now the Jets)? I think there will be teams who believe if Whitner is given the opportunity to play with abandon, he will thrive. I almost guarantee he will be paid more by another team than by the Bills. For years Whitner was indispensable to the Bills because of his versatility. That same versatility has probably hurt his stats and his reputation among Bills fans. But I'm not sure that versatility is as important to the Bills defense anymore. They have a fairly credible defensive backfield with some depth. The Bills should offer Whitner a contract well below what a top safety would command at this time, but above the "average" starting safety, IMO. He probably make something closer to elite pay somewhere else.
bkc Posted December 16, 2010 Posted December 16, 2010 This is still and uncapped year,it would be wise for the Bills to lock up as many players as they can before the Super bowl. I wouldn't expect to see any signings until after the Jets game , this late in the year the last thing you want to do is to pay one guy and leave the rest wondering what is going on. As for Whitner I would like to keep him , as someone pointed out losing him leaves another hole to fill. That said I would not overpay for him and that looks like where they stand. I think they key freeagents to address are Poz, florence, and wilson Should be a crazy offseason either way
Coach Tuesday Posted December 16, 2010 Posted December 16, 2010 The FA market is an interesting thing. Players don't get paid simply on their worth compared to others at the same position. Their pay is also based on the need of the team signing the player and the number of good players available at the position. Furthermore, you really can't compare the contract of a player who is 2-3 years into a contract to one signing a contract today. As player salaries tend to raise every year, a "lesser" player might make as much as a premier player who is under contract...but not as much as if that premier player was signing a brand new contract. Whitner is not a premier safety. At least he hasn't been for the Bills for various reasons (I would argue some of those reasons were out of his control...but whatever). But if he were to play on the Raven's D, I think you would see a much different player. Remember the difference in Jim Leonhard's game after going to the Ravens (and now the Jets)? I think there will be teams who believe if Whitner is given the opportunity to play with abandon, he will thrive. I almost guarantee he will be paid more by another team than by the Bills. For years Whitner was indispensable to the Bills because of his versatility. That same versatility has probably hurt his stats and his reputation among Bills fans. But I'm not sure that versatility is as important to the Bills defense anymore. They have a fairly credible defensive backfield with some depth. The Bills should offer Whitner a contract well below what a top safety would command at this time, but above the "average" starting safety, IMO. He probably make something closer to elite pay somewhere else. ...and use the money they save where, Dean? Because they won't reinvest it. Ralph will pocket it, and Nix will nap throughout the offseason again. What a joke.
Magox Posted December 16, 2010 Posted December 16, 2010 The resentment for Whitner being the #8 overall selection has clouded the view of many people, and that is understandable. Having said that, I believe his leadership values, work ethic (which we always hear about him studying film with the younger players) and his torpedoing tackles against runningbacks are attributes that get overlooked all to often. We do have (I think) three decent to good safeties in Scott, Wilson and Byrd, so this does make Whitner more expendable. I believe he should be offered a contract for the going rate of what a mid to above average SS receives in the NFL. If he doesn't accept, we have others that can do the job.
metzelaars_lives Posted December 16, 2010 Posted December 16, 2010 Can someone tell me what this twit said exactly? I can't view social networking sites at work.
The Dean Posted December 16, 2010 Posted December 16, 2010 ...and use the money they save where, Dean? Because they won't reinvest it. Ralph will pocket it, and Nix will nap throughout the offseason again. What a joke. Hey, I'm not advocating letting Whitner walk. I'm just being realistic here. But the Bills may have to pay a very high 1st round draft pick (or perhaps TWO first rounders if they make a trade) next year. They also need to extend Pos and maybe some others. As for Ralph pocketing the money, do the Bills spend less money on player salary year after year? Do they get further from the cap every year? If so, your charge against Ralph may hold water. If not, then it just sounds like sour grapes.
Thoner7 Posted December 16, 2010 Posted December 16, 2010 I disagree in one respect. When those other folks left, almost no one around here was willing to agree that they were "elite." It's only after their careers blossomed or continued to blossom in their new locations that it was finally acknowledged. Add Pat Williams to thie list as well. It's the same old story. The Bills can't evaluate their own roster, and even when they can, the accountants step in and draw lines in the sand. The same sand that some of you continue to stick your heads in. It just amazes me how cheap some of you are with Ralph's money. And then you complain that no one wants to play here and that we don't win any games. I would have considered Pat Williams to be elite when he left, Greer too, although I think both were under rated by the rest of the NFL. I would add Jim Leonard to a “close to elite” list and he was under rated by us and media. By that same degree, Clements and Peters were definitely thought to be elite by the rest of the NFL, but I don’t think they were and neither did most fans. But the best statement you made was that “the Bills can’t even evaluate their own roster” That is very very true. I learned something about the NFL I didn’t know before this year – that the team of Scouts that are employed by the Bills actually scout the Bills throughout TC and the season. They put in their 2 cents to the coaching staff as to who should be cut, start, etc. Now it is all starting to make sense to me – no matter who the coaching staff is, they are getting bad advice from the same scouts. They start A-train over Fred Jackson then draft Maybin over Orakpo. These guys are a big bunch of maroons. Bring back Pat Williams, Jim Leonard, Jabari Greer and see how good the team is. No one has seemed to acknowledge that when Whitners contract is up at the end of this season he will be a RESTRICTED FA – as he has only 5 years in the league. With no CBA in place, a player needs 6 accrued season to be Unrestricted. Whitner is prob upset he won’t be getting FA money and will be tendered at a 3rd round level for about 950k - if I have my numbers right.
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