Whitner gone?

[Coach Tuesday]

as for those who called it from Day 1, rock on!

 

Your argument is nonsensical. Whitner doesn't determine his own worth. His agent does. As you astutely point out, Condon is one of the more sophisticated agents out there. Whitner's asking price is coming from what Condon is fairly confident he will get for him on the open market.

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

There it is Dr... stupidest inquiry of the month... joining the TBD Peanut Gallery with no common sense. Link? Source? Were you in the room? Didn't think so.

 

1) I know this for a fact: Tom Condon doesn't take on clients unless he feels he can get them an upper echelon contract. He's the most powerful agent in pro sports and he doesn't just take anyone on as his client. If it's a modest contract, it's usually not worth his time. I don't need to reveal a source to you, because quite frankly, I don't give a schizz what you think.

 

 

 

Scott Boras, please respond.

[Dawgg]

Your argument is nonsensical. Whitner doesn't determine his own worth. His agent does. As you astutely point out, Condon is one of the more sophisticated agents out there. Whitner's asking price is coming from what Condon is fairly confident he will get for him on the open market.

... or perhaps the asking price is based on what Condon was fairly confident Whitner would get from the Bills. The Bills are notorious for overpaying for subpar talent, as the agents for Derrick Dockery, Langston Walker and Chris Kelsay can attest.

 

In any case, I'm not saying the Bills should surely let him walk; just saying there's no sense in caving to his demands now, when his value has yet to be determined. If he really wants to stay in Buffalo (as he claims) he'll give them a final chance to match or beat any offer out there. My hope is that Buffalo won't overpay him because the money is more adequately used toward other, more productive players on the team.

[JohnC]

You had me right up unitl there. Kelsay? What about the Kelsay extension?

 

The Kelsay extension has drawn a lot of controversey. Most people thought they overpayed for him. I think they did but not as much as many others. If they kept him at the stated price to be a LBer then definitely yes. But his role is more of a DE than a linebacker. I'm sure you are aware that his play of late as a DE has been very good. As a LBer he is a duck out of water.

 

I don't want to over-exagerate the importance of retaining good character and locker room guys but he certainly fits in that role. Even a rebuilding team can't get rid of everyone on the roster and completely start over. The Bills have a lot of needs. Constantly getting rid of contributing players only to replace them is like being on a treadmill. It gets you nowhere.

 

Any team involved in the rebuilding process is going to be making a lot of personnel moves. Not all of them are going to work out or be perfectly managed. The key is to have a quality evaluation process in place and trust your judgment. If a decision on a player doesn't work out then you go back and make the adjustment.

Edited December 18, 2010 by JohnC

[8-8 Forever?]

Negotiation during the period before the CBA is kind of a lost cause. This is a tactic on both sides. The Bills can look around some so can he. This has been his best year though.

he is like haynesworth.. plays up just before his contract expires. give him a big contract and then watch him play like Nate clements in SF

[DrDawkinstein]

There it is Dr... stupidest inquiry of the month... joining the TBD Peanut Gallery with no common sense. Link? Source? Were you in the room? Didn't think so.

 

1) I know this for a fact: Tom Condon doesn't take on clients unless he feels he can get them an upper echelon contract. He's the most powerful agent in pro sports and he doesn't just take anyone on as his client. If it's a modest contract, it's usually not worth his time. I don't need to reveal a source to you, because quite frankly, I don't give a schizz what you think.

 

2) Whitner himself stated that they are very far apart. It stands to reason that given his agent and his high opinion of himself, he is seeking to be paid top dollar. Given Whitner's statement that they are far apart on dollars, it seems reasonable to assume that the Bills are offering him substantially less than that.

 

It doesn't take much to figure out what's going on here. Whitner has no incentive to sign a modest deal the Bills have in place without testing his market value. The Bills have no incentive to overpay a player who has been somewhat ordinary throughout the course of his career. Hence the impasse.

 

 

And thats about the answer I expected. Glad we cleared it up that your entire argument is based on guesses, assumptions, and your opinion with zero factual evidence to back anything up.

 

Im not saying you are definitely wrong (at this point), but you are stating as fact a whole lot of BS that comes from no where else but your brain, about a situation you arent involved in.

 

Sure, we could "read between the lines", I just dont understand why you have to assume the worst and trash a player who has been solid for this team. None of this is out of the ordinary for contract negotiations. You dont think that if twitter was around back in the 90s that Reed, Thomas, and Bruce wouldn't have shot off at least a few commments during contract talks?!? It's all meaningless posturing.

 

He's not holding the team hostage, he's not letting it effect his play (which contrary to your belief is proven as actually pretty good). He made a couple tweets during negotiations, and you guys open the hate valves full-go. Just doesnt make sense to me other than it being an overreaction.

 

Just like all of the overreactions during the rookie signing phase, this will play out and be settled, and then no one will even think about it anymore.

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

he is like haynesworth.. plays up just before his contract expires. give him a big contract and then watch him play like Nate clements in SF

 

As the #8 overall pick, he has already signed a pretty good contract once as a kid coming out of college.

 

I believe if the money was going to effect his play, we would have seen it happen already.

Edited December 18, 2010 by DrDankenstein

[Rockinon]

This might all be gamesmanship! Dunno how many times we've seen a player grouse to the press about feeling 'disrespected' by the pace/amount of negotiations, only to end up smiling alongside the GM at a signing announcement one month later.

 

For where this team is, cap and personnel-wise, the right price point for 25 year old Whitner is somewhere between an average of 4 and 5M/yr. Still well below the top-tier 7 to 8 mil that Ed Reed, Adrian Wilson, Laron Landry, Polumalu, Sanders and Rolle are clearing. If that amount includes a little overpay to a loyal starter whose idea of a good time is studying opponent film in his home theater at 5 am, well fine! Better spent than Merriman's 1.8.

He never said he felt disrespected.

[Rockinon]

It would be, whereas you are a long time, staunch defender of Levy, Jauron, the 06 draft, and Whitner as the #8 selection of a draft.

 

Whitner gives up long completions and touchdowns. Then, he tackles people (often in the endzone) and sometimes draws penalties for doing so. He doesn't intercept passes, and Sammy Morris (not Earl Campbell mind you) flattened him like a pancake on a run.

 

Were it not for the Bills propensity for wasting top draft picks on defensive backs (a philosophy lauded by you and The Dean), I would wish that the Bills would let him walk. Your hero, Donte Whitner, is a symbol of what is wrong with the Bills, and he was brought to town by the losers who you have defended as if they are your children.

 

If you need support when Lil' Donte leaves town, feel free to send me a PM and I will try to walk you through it.

A little over the top with the "your hero" BS.

[Rockinon]

You need to forget about the Levy/Jauron era taint associated with Whitner's selection. The critical issue regarding his retention is what are his contract expectations. The loqacious Donte is a mid-range caliber safety. That is where he should be paid. If his contract demands go beyond that then he should be dispatched. If his contract demands settle down to the mid-range level then I would have no problem retaining him. What this very mediocre franchise doesn't need is another hole to fill.

 

Your criticism of DW regularly being late to a play is not necessarily valid. The Bills are not noted for their ability to put meaningful pressure on the qb. That certainly has affected DW's coverage, and the other DBs as well. By upgrading the pressure the coverage will correspondingly improve.

 

You make a very potent point about the Levy/Jauron era. It was an unmitigated disaster which set the franchise back in years. The next few years will be dedicated to cleansing those very egregious and perplexing mistakes. The most appropriate response for those who were Jauron/Levy afficionados would be to remain silent and burrow themselves in a deep hole. There is nothing they can say to justify the carnage that past regime left.

While this is pretty accurate, you left something out. What a lot of people don't realize, is that DW has been expected throughout his career to switch positions frequently. This is one of the most difficult things to do on the football field and even though this has been the case, he has done so without complaint and performed respectably. Now this year, while he is back in his natural position, he is putting together a much better than average showing. Certainly not probowl level, but pretty impressive none the less. He is just reaching his prime and all you naysayers are ready to throw him onto the scrap heap so some other team can pick him up and make a probowler out of him.

 

As for DW's contract, he is in a favorable position for a pay raise. The front office is obviously playing their usual role of tough negotiator. DW and his agent are smart enough to know that to settle too quickly is not wise on their part, because this position is not as simple as throwing someone else on the roster into the SS spot. Face it. This is a critical position and the Bill's need him so they can fill other positions of greater need.

 

Now we don't know that he will ever make it to the probowl, but if this year is any indication, at the very least, he's headed in the right direction. People often have a narrow minded view of what is going on with this team. There are other variables too. Coaching for instance. Dick Jauron never seemed to understand that his players have certain skills and weaknesses. He liked to dictate the scheme and make his players adhere to it rather than adjust the scheme to match a player's strengths. This new regime is now utilizing DW's strengths and people are now surprised that his production is better? Yea, I know. It's a contract year....Blah, Blah. People need to open up their minds and look at all of the evidence.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Rockinon

[Nanker]

Wow. Eleven pages. More press than he's gotten so far in his career here.

[steampunk]

He never said he felt disrespected.

 

This might all be gamesmanship! Dunno how many times we've seen a player grouse to the press about feeling 'disrespected' by the pace/amount of negotiations, only to end up smiling alongside the GM at a signing announcement one month later.

 

Agreed. He didn't use that word. Donte leaked being unhappy with negotiations and the front office's estimation of his true value. My point was that it's not uncommon for players (on any team) to do. Often nothing comes of it.

 

Most here would re-sign him for $500k/yr. Most here would let him walk for 10mil/yr. The difference of opinion is all about the tipping point in between, right? I don't see any use in getting all Mister Furious on either Whitner or the front office without knowing their disconnect price. I do appreciate the posts going on record with their own magic number -- the tipping point they'd walk away from. Once this plays out and we have the deets, it'll be interesting to compare.

[Dawgg]

And thats about the answer I expected. Glad we cleared it up that your entire argument is based on guesses, assumptions, and your opinion with zero factual evidence to back anything up.

 

Im not saying you are definitely wrong (at this point), but you are stating as fact a whole lot of BS that comes from no where else but your brain, about a situation you arent involved in.

 

Sure, we could "read between the lines", I just dont understand why you have to assume the worst and trash a player who has been solid for this team. None of this is out of the ordinary for contract negotiations. You dont think that if twitter was around back in the 90s that Reed, Thomas, and Bruce wouldn't have shot off at least a few commments during contract talks?!? It's all meaningless posturing.

 

1) I don't care to provide you with any sources to compensate for your lack of knowledge on the business of Pro Sports. But what i stated was fact, not reading between the lines. If you choose to believe otherwise, feel free to do so. I frankly couldn't care less.

 

2) "Assume the worst???" How is stating that he's looking for an upper echelon contract assuming the worst? There is nothing wrong in aiming high and quite frankly, I think all players should hold out to get as much as they can get. If you think Tom Condon is looking for a mid-tier contract, you have no idea what you're talking about. If you need factual evidence to spell it out for you, you're even worse off.

 

He's not holding the team hostage, he's not letting it effect his play (which contrary to your belief is proven as actually pretty good). He made a couple tweets during negotiations, and you guys open the hate valves full-go. Just doesnt make sense to me other than it being an overreaction.

His play has been OK. Not good, not great, not poor, but OK. Anytime you have 4 dropped INTs, one of which was a potential game-winner and a missed sack because you jumped up in the air instead of tackle the QB, there is absolutely no way your play can be considered "pretty good." I don't care how many tackles he has been OK.

 

 

As the #8 overall pick, he has already signed a pretty good contract once as a kid coming out of college.

 

I believe if the money was going to effect his play, we would have seen it happen already.

Don't think money is affecting his play. He's just trying to get the Bills to outbid themselves. If the Bills were smart, they'd let him shop around and see what he can get on the open market first. If he wants to stay in Buffalo (as he claims), he'd give them an opportunity to match or beat any offer out there.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Dawgg

[Magox]

1) I don't care to provide you with any sources to compensate for your lack of knowledge on the business of Pro Sports. But what i stated was fact, not reading between the lines. If you choose to believe otherwise, feel free to do so. I frankly couldn't care less.

 

2) "Assume the worst???" How is stating that he's looking for an upper echelon contract assuming the worst? There is nothing wrong in aiming high and quite frankly, I think all players should hold out to get as much as they can get. If you think Tom Condon is looking for a mid-tier contract, you have no idea what you're talking about. If you need factual evidence to spell it out for you, you're even worse off.

 

 

His play has been OK. Not good, not great, not poor, but OK. Anytime you have 4 dropped INTs, one of which was a potential game-winner and a missed sack because you jumped up in the air instead of tackle the QB, there is absolutely no way your play can be considered "pretty good." I don't care how many tackles he has been OK.

 

 

 

Don't think money is affecting his play. He's just trying to get the Bills to outbid themselves. If the Bills were smart, they'd let him shop around and see what he can get on the open market first. If he wants to stay in Buffalo (as he claims), he'd give them an opportunity to match or beat any offer out there.

I believe we all pretty much know where you stand on this issue, maybe your response to my post will be the last.

[BADOLBILZ]

IMO, it's time for Donte and the Bills to part ways. I am one of the biggest critics of the Bills letting useful players walk, but Donte may be the exception.

 

First of all, don't kid yourselves that Donte is looking for anything less than the near $6M per he has earned on his rookie contract. Donte wants a raise. Regardless if that figure is $7M or $10M per year is irrelevant. He isn't worth the $29M he has earned. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Now some people will argue that it doesn't matter because the Bills have all kinds of cap space, but salary pecking order on the team matters. If the proven Donte is worth $6M then the entire secondary is grossly underpaid because he is not nearly that much better than anyone else. Hell, he may not be as good as George Wilson.

 

It's one thing for the team to make a bad draft pick and be saddled with the salary, it's another entirely for the team to re-sign their own proven player to a bad contract.

 

To me, Donte is a non-impact performer. In the estimation of some he may be something like the 10th best safety in the NFL, but if that's the case, it's because there aren't 11 better safeties, not because he is outstanding.

 

When grossly overdrafting the physically limited Whitner, the Bills, being the followers that they are, jumped on the bandwagon of people who believed that the safety position was the next key impact position in the NFL.

 

This was based on the impact play of a handful of incredible talents like Troy Polomalu and Bob Sanders. The current reality is that safety is still the position you can adequately fill with underpaid overachievers. Undrafted free agents and recycled cornerbacks.

 

Donte Whitner simply does not make plays on the football. He is a good tackler, but not a force at the LOS. Even he admits that. He is not good in coverage, limited by his size and lack of instincts. He is short and has a very small wingspan to make plays on the ball in the air. Not that it matters, because he doesn't get in position to make plays on the ball if he did.

 

Instinctive safeties with a nose for the ball are often referred to as "rangy". That ain't Donte Whitner.

 

Be honest with yourselves, if this guy signs a 5 year $40M contract and produces at the same level he has for the past 5 years, is he going to be worth that?

[Dawgg]

I believe we all pretty much know where you stand on this issue, maybe your response to my post will be the last.

I'll stick with Badol's excellent post above. Link provided for your convenience.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Dawgg

[Coach Tuesday]

Be honest with yourselves, if this guy signs a 5 year $40M contract and produces at the same level he has for the past 5 years, is he going to be worth that?

 

Badol, if they take that money and spend it on offensive or defensive linemen instead, I'm with you. But chances are, they won't - they'll just hand it to the next unproven DB draft pick. At least Whitner stays healthy and is versatile. Is he elite? No. But he's a good player and far harder to replace than Kelsay, IMO. The problem is that the Bills repeatedly create holes in their defensive backfield and then fill them with high draft choices. I am not convinced anything has changed.

[Mr. WEO]

IMO, it's time for Donte and the Bills to part ways. I am one of the biggest critics of the Bills letting useful players walk, but Donte may be the exception.

 

First of all, don't kid yourselves that Donte is looking for anything less than the near $6M per he has earned on his rookie contract. Donte wants a raise. Regardless if that figure is $7M or $10M per year is irrelevant. He isn't worth the $29M he has earned. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Now some people will argue that it doesn't matter because the Bills have all kinds of cap space, but salary pecking order on the team matters. If the proven Donte is worth $6M then the entire secondary is grossly underpaid because he is not nearly that much better than anyone else. Hell, he may not be as good as George Wilson.

 

It's one thing for the team to make a bad draft pick and be saddled with the salary, it's another entirely for the team to re-sign their own proven player to a bad contract.

 

To me, Donte is a non-impact performer. In the estimation of some he may be something like the 10th best safety in the NFL, but if that's the case, it's because there aren't 11 better safeties, not because he is outstanding.

 

When grossly overdrafting the physically limited Whitner, the Bills, being the followers that they are, jumped on the bandwagon of people who believed that the safety position was the next key impact position in the NFL.

 

This was based on the impact play of a handful of incredible talents like Troy Polomalu and Bob Sanders. The current reality is that safety is still the position you can adequately fill with underpaid overachievers. Undrafted free agents and recycled cornerbacks.

 

Donte Whitner simply does not make plays on the football. He is a good tackler, but not a force at the LOS. Even he admits that. He is not good in coverage, limited by his size and lack of instincts. He is short and has a very small wingspan to make plays on the ball in the air. Not that it matters, because he doesn't get in position to make plays on the ball if he did.

 

Instinctive safeties with a nose for the ball are often referred to as "rangy". That ain't Donte Whitner.

 

Be honest with yourselves, if this guy signs a 5 year $40M contract and produces at the same level he has for the past 5 years, is he going to be worth that?

Don't know how any reasonable, objective observer could disagree with this. Any of it.

[Wayne Fontes]

Don't know how any reasonable, objective observer could disagree with this. Any of it.

Well, he does stone receivers after the catch downfield and his precise tackling prevents 20 yard runs from turning into a 30 yard runs. Donte's cousin Larry Brown says he's well worth the 7 million a year.

[San-O]

Sports Illustrated (and Real Scouts) would disagree with your evaluation of Whitner. In 2009, they ranked Donte at #9 for ALL Safeties (Strong and Free). I imagine after this year's performance, he might rank even higher:

 

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2009-05-27/safety-rankings-reed-polamalu-are-pure-playmakers

 

 

I don't see how they ranked him at all when he only started 8 games for the year 2009: benched, not injury as I recall.

 

http://www.nfl.com/players/dontewhitner/profile?id=WHI720119

Edited December 19, 2010 by SoCal-Surf

[The Dean]

I don't see how they ranked him at all when he only started 8 games for the year 2009: benched, not injury as I recall.

 

http://www.nfl.com/players/dontewhitner/profile?id=WHI720119

 

 

It was before the 2009 season. 2009 was clearly his worst season as he missed many games, and played injured in several others.