Downtown Buffalo City Teacher is forced to quit

[Gene Frenkle]

Why would a progressive like yourself have trouble with this plan? All we hear from folks like yourself is how the odds are stacked against the middle class. One problem concerns parents who DO care about their child's schooling but CAN'T afford anything but the piece of crap educational building run by tenured educators too scared for their lives to even stay in their job.

 

Vouchers is a real chance for them to significantly reduce the cost for private schooling so their child can get the education they prefer in an environment that will help them thrive.

 

But no, let's cheat the middle class while stunting the development of many kids because heaven forbid we "classify" someone as anything other than just "another student at another school."

I don't think the odds are stacked against the middle class, but we're not talking about the middle class here. You are guaranteeing a future generation of criminals by writing kids off just because they didn't luck into a stable situation. You're taking your own fortunate roll-of-the-dice for granted, unless I'm mistaken and you want to tell me all about how you came up out of the projects.

[IDBillzFan]

I don't think the odds are stacked against the middle class, but we're not talking about the middle class here. You are guaranteeing a future generation of criminals by writing kids off just because they didn't luck into a stable situation. You're taking your own fortunate roll-of-the-dice for granted, unless I'm mistaken and you want to tell me all about how you came up out of the projects.

The simple fact that you quickly assume I had a "fortunate roll-of-the-dice" speaks volumes. I'm not big on specifics in this forum, but I'd put my history against "the projects" any day. And rest assured there was no fortunate anything for me beyond the fact that I was lucky enough to have a few selfless hands extended to me when I was ready to quit after being raised in an environment that encouraged quitting. Beyond that, the question becomes, how do you respond when people are trying to help? It was a personal choice to do what I had to to stop the tide of crap and turn the momentum.

 

You picked the wrong guy to dissect, because I had every reason and excuse to quit, chose not to, worked me ass off (including finding a way to beg, steal and borrow my way through four years of a college education), got through it, made my career work to my advantage through hard work and compromise, and to this day fail to understand why that was so unusual.

 

Guys like me ruin it for guys like you because we succeed where you say we shouldn't. But keep beating that drum of yours. I'm sure it sounds great in your inner circle of people who simply quit because they didn't get that fortunate roll of the dice you seem to think is required to find success.

 

Maybe more people would find success if people like you didn't work so hard to justify and accept the reasons to fail.

[Gene Frenkle]

The simple fact that you quickly assume I had a "fortunate roll-of-the-dice" speaks volumes. I'm not big on specifics in this forum, but I'd put my history against "the projects" any day. And rest assured there was no fortunate anything for me beyond the fact that I was lucky enough to have a few selfless hands extended to me when I was ready to quit after being raised in an environment that encouraged quitting. Beyond that, the question becomes, how do you respond when people are trying to help? It was a personal choice to do what I had to to stop the tide of crap and turn the momentum.

 

You picked the wrong guy to dissect, because I had every reason and excuse to quit, chose not to, worked me ass off (including finding a way to beg, steal and borrow my way through four years of a college education), got through it, made my career work to my advantage through hard work and compromise, and to this day fail to understand why that was so unusual.

 

Guys like me ruin it for guys like you because we succeed where you say we shouldn't. But keep beating that drum of yours. I'm sure it sounds great in your inner circle of people who simply quit because they didn't get that fortunate roll of the dice you seem to think is required to find success.

 

Maybe more people would find success if people like you didn't work so hard to justify and accept the reasons to fail.

Congratulations. You're the best around and no-one's gonna ever keep you down.

 

In my view it's a role of the dice any way you look at it. You were fortunate to get some genetic code, environmental stimuli and various life experiences that turned you into the hard working, competent, successful, self-interested person you are today. If you do not see random chance and luck playing into your situation, you're not looking hard enough.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Send Boehner in there... He will cry them to sleep with his sob stories. Weep the violence right out of those little cherubs!

 

 

 

Like they (the students there) haven't heard it eveyday of their life... Those are the ones that rightfully should be in tears...

Edited December 14, 2010 by ExiledInIllinois

[Rob's House]

Congratulations. You're the best around and no-one's gonna ever keep you down.

 

In my view it's a role of the dice any way you look at it. You were fortunate to get some genetic code, environmental stimuli and various life experiences that turned you into the hard working, competent, successful, self-interested person you are today. If you do not see random chance and luck playing into your situation, you're not looking hard enough.

Your argument misses the point anyway. Nobody is saying screw the poor kids. People actually are suggesting that if you instill the same reasonable consequences in poor schools that exist in middle and upper-middle class school systems, you will create for those students the opportunity of which they are currently deprived due to the lawless nature of the schools.

 

The kind of behavior that is tolerated in many of these schools would never be allowed in an adult setting, and it wouldn't fly for a second in upper middle class schools. I know compassion is what you're shooting for, but the kind of policies you're advocating lead to horrible cruelty.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Rob's House

[ExiledInIllinois]

The simple fact that you quickly assume I had a "fortunate roll-of-the-dice" speaks volumes. I'm not big on specifics in this forum, but I'd put my history against "the projects" any day. And rest assured there was no fortunate anything for me beyond the fact that I was lucky enough to have a few selfless hands extended to me when I was ready to quit after being raised in an environment that encouraged quitting. Beyond that, the question becomes, how do you respond when people are trying to help? It was a personal choice to do what I had to to stop the tide of crap and turn the momentum.

 

You picked the wrong guy to dissect, because I had every reason and excuse to quit, chose not to, worked me ass off (including finding a way to beg, steal and borrow my way through four years of a college education), got through it, made my career work to my advantage through hard work and compromise, and to this day fail to understand why that was so unusual.

 

Guys like me ruin it for guys like you because we succeed where you say we shouldn't. But keep beating that drum of yours. I'm sure it sounds great in your inner circle of people who simply quit because they didn't get that fortunate roll of the dice you seem to think is required to find success.

 

Maybe more people would find success if people like you didn't work so hard to justify and accept the reasons to fail.

 

Because it isn't very unusual, that is why you can't understand it. You are preoccupied with the wrong questions. Many people doing the same hard work never get as half as far... They die NEVER quitting. I am not saying hard work didn't get you far... You are just making the wrong total connection in order to make yourself feel better... Of course IMHumbleO LA...

[Gene Frenkle]

Your argument misses the point anyway. Nobody is saying screw the poor kids. People actually are suggesting that if you instill the same reasonable consequences in poor schools that exist in middle and upper-middle class school systems, you will create for those students the opportunity of which they are currently deprived due to the lawless nature of the schools.

 

The kind of behavior that is tolerated in many of these schools would never be allowed in an adult setting, and it wouldn't fly for a second in upper middle class schools. I know compassion is what you're shooting for, but the kind of policies you're advocating lead to horrible cruelty.

I'm arguing that the answer is not to segregate, but rather to institute rules that would lead to these troubled youths to once again have a healthy amount of respect and fear for authority figures. Of course that would be harder than just casting out the hard cases.

[IDBillzFan]

Congratulations. You're the best around and no-one's gonna ever keep you down.

 

In my view it's a role of the dice any way you look at it. You were fortunate to get some genetic code, environmental stimuli and various life experiences that turned you into the hard working, competent, successful, self-interested person you are today. If you do not see random chance and luck playing into your situation, you're not looking hard enough.

Of course random chance and luck played into my situation. It plays into everyone's situation. But luck without will is just another blown opportunity, whereas from your perspective, it's not that the person didn't try hard enough to succeed, it's just that their luck wasn't good enough.

 

That's no reason. That's an excuse.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Your argument misses the point anyway. Nobody is saying screw the poor kids. People actually are suggesting that if you instill the same reasonable consequences in poor schools that exist in middle and upper-middle class school systems, you will create for those students the opportunity of which they are currently deprived due to the lawless nature of the schools.

 

The kind of behavior that is tolerated in many of these schools would never be allowed in an adult setting, and it wouldn't fly for a second in upper middle class schools. I know compassion is what you're shooting for, but the kind of policies you're advocating lead to horrible cruelty.

 

 

Reasonable consequences need to be in all strata of society. That is not what is happening. You don't think the children see that double standard? If you don't you are fooling yourself big time. Is up to people like you and me and everybody else to see that double standard doesn't exist.

 

This probably went over your head and you are saying WTF. If not, congratulations! If so, just call me a crazy person right now (for what ever reason is in vogue) and move on.

 

 

Anyway... I went to West Seneca schools and one year (in HS, over 25 years ago) had a teacher that had a very toxic enviro in the classes... She was forced out mid-year (thank God!)... I think she didn't quit... Just forced into admin because she had a doctorate or something the story goes? (who really knows, maybe they canned her)... Some of the other classes (not mine to speak) I heard were a real zoo... Desks being flipped, the whole nine yards...

[Rob's House]

I'm arguing that the answer is not to segregate, but rather to institute rules that would lead to these troubled youths to once again have a healthy amount of respect and fear for authority figures. Of course that would be harder than just casting out the hard cases.

It sounds like we might not be so far apart on this issue after all. But what do you do if these rules fail to institute sufficient fear authority figures? Do you allow these "hard cases" to continue to victimize the teachers and other students so as to avoid [buzz word alert]"segregating" them from the rest of the student body? Because if you !@#$ up beyond a reasonable point in other school systems you get kicked out, not because you don't matter, but because it's neither compassionate nor practical to sacrifice the rest of the school for a select handful of bad apples.

[Gene Frenkle]

Of course random chance and luck played into my situation. It plays into everyone's situation. But luck without will is just another blown opportunity, whereas from your perspective, it's not that the person didn't try hard enough to succeed, it's just that their luck wasn't good enough.

 

That's no reason. That's an excuse.

I was given every opportunity, took advantage and am doing well, but I try not to make it all about me. You certainly know what you know.

 

Not everyone has the tools, makeup and happenstance to succeed in a given environment. You call that lazy, and in some cases you're right. You thrive in a SYSTEM that is suited to the skill set you've developed. In a different system, you might be the lazy degenerate.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Of course random chance and luck played into my situation. It plays into everyone's situation. But luck without will is just another blown opportunity, whereas from your perspective, it's not that the person didn't try hard enough to succeed, it's just that their luck wasn't good enough.

 

That's no reason. That's an excuse.

 

Very well said LA... I couldn't agree more on this point.

[Gene Frenkle]

It sounds like we might not be so far apart on this issue after all. But what do you do if these rules fail to institute sufficient fear authority figures? Do you allow these "hard cases" to continue to victimize the teachers and other students so as to avoid [buzz word alert]"segregating" them from the rest of the student body? Because if you !@#$ up beyond a reasonable point in other school systems you get kicked out, not because you don't matter, but because it's neither compassionate nor practical to sacrifice the rest of the school for a select handful of bad apples.

We're not far apart on this.

[....lybob]

Success of a system is usually not judged by the outliers - If I ran a training program where 1% gets great results 3% gets some results 40% get no results 50% get negative results and 6% die, that would be a bad program- yes a few can prosper under the worst conditions and a few will squander the best conditions but you want a system conducive of moving the large middle of that bell curve forward.

[Gene Frenkle]

Success of a system is usually not judged by the outliers - If I ran a training program where 1% gets great results 3% gets some results 40% get no results 50% get negative results and 6% die, that would be a bad program- yes a few can prosper under the worst conditions and a few will squander the best conditions but you want a system conducive of moving the large middle of that bell curve forward.

The question is: what becomes of the outliers? My view is that it is the responsiblity of the system to see that their basic needs are provided for. Minimize the number of outliers by maximizing the efficiency of the system, but also take care of the outliers - is that so bad? In the best system, non-outliers are still benefitting from the rules that create the outliers.

[GG]

The question is: what becomes of the outliers? My view is that it is the responsiblity of the system to see that their basic needs are provided for. Minimize the number of outliers by maximizing the efficiency of the system, but also take care of the outliers - is that so bad? In the best system, non-outliers are still benefitting from the rules that create the outliers.

 

I think in a perfect system they regress to the error value of 3.5