whateverdude Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 For that matter all politics are recycled. There is nothing new under the sun. Corps bad, rich people bad, wall street bad, bankers bad. If you believe this than you are being played. Interesting link on recycled politics carter vs. mondale vs. obama
drnykterstein Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 Warren Buffet, that poor sap, little does he know he's being played.
whateverdude Posted December 9, 2010 Author Posted December 9, 2010 (edited) Warren Buffet, that poor sap, little does he know he's being played. Have I missed something? When did Warren Buffet call out corps, the rich, wall street, banks and himself for being bad for America? Buffet may be able to make money but he sucks at picking good leaders and at politics in general the man is clueless. Another useful idiot. Edited December 9, 2010 by whateverdude
birdog1960 Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 For that matter all politics are recycled. There is nothing new under the sun. Corps bad, rich people bad, wall street bad, bankers bad. If you believe this than you are being played. Interesting link on recycled politics carter vs. mondale vs. obama i believe that the nation's wealth is becoming more concentrated in the hands of a few than ever before and at an alarming rate. this IS new and i think IT represents class warfare with the obvious winners and losers being, respectively the very rich and just about everyone else. what amazes me is that some in the vast, not extremely wealthy majority don't see themselves as losers. i can only surmise that they believe they will eventually make it to the other group, are misinformed or are just stupid.
Magox Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 (edited) i believe that the nation's wealth is becoming more concentrated in the hands of a few than ever before and at an alarming rate. this IS new and i think IT represents class warfare with the obvious winners and losers being, respectively the very rich and just about everyone else. what amazes me is that some in the vast, not extremely wealthy majority don't see themselves as losers. i can only surmise that they believe they will eventually make it to the other group, are misinformed or are just stupid. You would never understand, because of your inability to comprehend the benefits of incentives. But, here's why: As recently as 1996, when Bill Clinton won reelection, exit polls indicated that voters making more than $100,000 annually made up just 9 percent of the electorate and tilted strongly Republican. They backed losing Republican Bob Dole over Clinton by 54 percent to 38 percent. Just a dozen years later, in 2008, by contrast, voters making more than $100,000 represented 26 percent of the electorate and many of these affluent voters were Obama backers. For the first time, a Democratic presidential nominee tied the Republican for support among the $100K-and-up crowd. In 2010, Democrats lost this group by 18 percentage points 58 to 40. The stumbling performance by Democrats during the lame-duck session as they tried to hold the line against Republicans came as no surprise to one pollster scorned by many liberals who has long counseled Democrats against any strategy that sounds like class warfare. When you ask the public, do you want to extend the tax cuts only for the middle class or do you want to extend them to everybody, they say yes to both, said Mark J. Penn, the pollster for both Bill Clinton in the 1990s and Hillary Clintons losing 2008 campaign. No Democrat on Capitol Hill proposed reversing the Bush tax cuts down to the $100,000 level. The problem, as Penn sees it, is that many people making $100,000 or a little more quite plausibly envision themselves making more than $250,000 in due course enough to qualify as rich in Democratic rhetoric. Whats more, unlike the high-income earners of previous generations dominated by Republican-leaning executives, small-business owners and physicians this generations affluent voters include lots of people such as software engineers or other creative class professionals, and are generally sympathetic to Democrats. =But that doesnt mean they yearn to have their taxes raised or anyone elses. They consider themselves upwardly mobile, and they consider themselves greater beneficiaries of tax cuts than government programs, Penn said. Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1210/46113.html#ixzz17dMhietB Edited December 9, 2010 by Magox
....lybob Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 Have I missed something? When did Warren Buffet call out corps, the rich, wall street, banks and himself for being bad for America? Buffet may be able to make money but he sucks at picking good leaders and at politics in general the man is clueless. Another useful idiot. no one would accuse you of being a useful idiot.
Chef Jim Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 i believe that the nation's wealth is becoming more concentrated in the hands of a few than ever before and at an alarming rate. this IS new and i think IT represents class warfare with the obvious winners and losers being, respectively the very rich and just about everyone else. what amazes me is that some in the vast, not extremely wealthy majority don't see themselves as losers. i can only surmise that they believe they will eventually make it to the other group, are misinformed or are just stupid. I spent years wallowing away in a very blue collar postion as a Chef. Making typically under $50k per year and working my ass off. My wife and I spent many weekends taking walks in the upscale neighborhoods near where we lived. Looking at multi-million dollar homes with an expensive car out front and a more expensive boat out back. I didn't use this as a woe is me tactic but a way to motivate me to figure out how I could joint them. Ten year ago I made a major change in my life/career. While I'm not yet to the point of a multi-million dollar home with a boat I will get there. When I ask my wife now where she wants to retire (wine country, the Carribean, big place in Palm Springs) we're not fantasizing we'll actually be able to make it happen. If I can do it anyone can.
whateverdude Posted December 9, 2010 Author Posted December 9, 2010 (edited) i believe that the nation's wealth is becoming more concentrated in the hands of a few than ever before and at an alarming rate. this IS new and i think IT represents class warfare with the obvious winners and losers being, respectively the very rich and just about everyone else. what amazes me is that some in the vast, not extremely wealthy majority don't see themselves as losers. i can only surmise that they believe they will eventually make it to the other group, are misinformed or are just stupid. I don't know how old you are but I heard this type of statement for over 30 years now and it's just a misunderstanding about what America is all about IMO. I not an economist so I'll talk more philosophically on this subject. The concentration of wealth or resources is a natural human condition that been happening for thousands of years. This is something you have to accept. America is not immune to this natural law. Being an American does not mean we are all equal and middle class, thats more of a Communist thought process. The ideal of America is to be born equal with equal rights and liberty. You are not born with the right to be rich, poor, or middle class. You are born with the rights and liberty unencumbered by a government, cast or nobility system to create opportunities to enrich yourself if you choose to whatever degree you choose. Edited December 9, 2010 by whateverdude
birdog1960 Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 (edited) I spent years wallowing away in a very blue collar postion as a Chef. Making typically under $50k per year and working my ass off. My wife and I spent many weekends taking walks in the upscale neighborhoods near where we lived. Looking at multi-million dollar homes with an expensive car out front and a more expensive boat out back. I didn't use this as a woe is me tactic but a way to motivate me to figure out how I could joint them. Ten year ago I made a major change in my life/career. While I'm not yet to the point of a multi-million dollar home with a boat I will get there. When I ask my wife now where she wants to retire (wine country, the Carribean, big place in Palm Springs) we're not fantasizing we'll actually be able to make it happen. If I can do it anyone can. that's what i thought...both your reply and magox' citation point to the "believe they'll make it to the other group" club.(you do realize how small that group is, right? about 7500 individuals are expected to pay the estate tax under the newly proposed rules) look, i want for very little (really nothing except really extravagant luxury items) nevertheless, i will never attain the levels of wealth and power of the uber rich...and it doesn't bother me, at least not for now. but it might if this concentration advances much further and affects my lifestyle. it will affect the other 94% of the population first but we're already seeing the canaries in the coal mine as lower middle class and middle class families fail financially with more regularity. class warfare exists and ignoring it won't make it go away. Edited December 9, 2010 by birdog1960
TPS Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 For that matter all politics are recycled. There is nothing new under the sun. Corps bad, rich people bad, wall street bad, bankers bad. If you believe this than you are being played. Interesting link on recycled politics carter vs. mondale vs. obama Class warfare began in 1980. Since then, policies have been tilted in favor of the upper incomes over the rest. Inequality peaked prior the the 1929 market crash, then fell until the 1940s, remaining steady until 1980, and now higher than 1929. The rich have been fighting to over-turn the New Deal for the past 30 years. There is a war, but it's been won by those who own the country. So, yeah, it's time the middle class fought back.
Magox Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 (edited) that's what i thought...both your reply and magox' citation point to the "believe they'll make it to the other group" club.(you do realize how small that group is, right? about 7500 individuals are expected to pay the estate tax under the newly proposed rules) look, i want for very little (really nothing except really extravagant luxury items) nevertheless, i will never attain the levels of wealth and power of the uber rich...and it doesn't bother me, at least not for now. but it might if this concentration advances much further and affects my lifestyle. it will affect the other 94% of the population first but we're already seeing the canaries in the coal mine as lower middle class and middle class families fail financially with more regularity. class warfare exists and ignoring it won't make it go away. You're using the estate tax provision to prove your point that only a small segment of the population that are in the "believe they'll make it to the other group" club? That is ridiculous, how about we go with a real tangible study, the elections. 58% to 40%, an 18 point differential for people who made over $100,000 that decided to caste their votes for the party that represents lower taxes. That is a more accurate gauge. It's all about incentives, if you provide incentives for people to achieve, then more people will achieve. If you take away those incentives, less people will achieve. See southern europe The ultimate welfare state. Where retirement pensions were the la creme de la creme, where the social safety nets were the highest in the world. Yet unemployment in this sector of Europe was the highest. It is simple, you give incentives to succeed, more people will try to achieve. You give more incentives for hand me outs, more people will recieve hand me outs. It isn't that difficult to understand. Edited December 9, 2010 by Magox
drnykterstein Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 Have I missed something? When did Warren Buffet call out corps, the rich, wall street, banks and himself for being bad for America? Buffet may be able to make money but he sucks at picking good leaders and at politics in general the man is clueless. Another useful idiot. You did miss something then. He's been on a tirade of sorts lately. I'll link later when I have time, or you can just do your own research (gasp!).
Magox Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 (edited) Class warfare began in 1980. You anti Reagan zealots are hilarious. He represents everything you hate... Because what he did worked and he crushed liberal philosophies while doing it. Only a small small segment of the population believes in the crap you peddle. Edited December 9, 2010 by Magox
Magox Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 I'm a monkey who throws **** on the wall hoping it sticks
birdog1960 Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 (edited) You're using the estate tax provision to prove your point that only a small segment of the population that are in the "believe they'll make it to the other group" club? That is ridiculous, how about we go with a real tangible study, the elections. 58% to 40%, an 18 point differential for people who made over $100,000 that decided to CASTE their votes for the party that represents lower taxes. That is a more accurate gauge. It's all about incentives, if you provide incentives for people to achieve, then more people will achieve. If you take away those incentives, less people will achieve. See southern europe The ultimate welfare state. Where retirement pensions were the la creme de la creme, where the social safety nets were the highest in the world. Yet unemployment in this sector of Europe was the highest. It is simple, you give incentives to succeed, more people will try to achieve. You give more incentives for hand me outs, more people will recieve hand me outs. It isn't that difficult to understand. hmmm...freudian slip? i was using the estate tax example to show how truly small the pool of elites really is. no argument that the number of wannabes with little to no realistic chance is enormous.(that's the basis of the american dream..er, myth) incentives are absolutely necessary but they should be proportional and not obscene to the point of impoverishing the remainder of society. Edited December 9, 2010 by birdog1960
Gary M Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 I don't know how old you are but I heard this type of statement for over 30 years now and it's just a misunderstanding about what America is all about IMO. I not an economist so I'll talk more philosophically on this subject. The concentration of wealth or resources is a natural human condition that been happening for thousands of years. This is something you have to accept. America is not immune to this natural law. Being an American does not mean we are all equal and middle class, thats more of a Communist thought process. The ideal of America is to be born equal with equal rights and liberty. You are not born with the right to be rich, poor, or middle class. You are born with the rights and liberty unencumbered by a government, cast or nobility system to create opportunities to enrich yourself if you choose to whatever degree you choose. And some people (Obama included) will never understand that!!!!!!! incentives are absolutely necessary but they should be proportional and not obscene to the point of impoverishing the remainder of society. So by your logic low taxes on the rich is what causes poor people to exist?
birdog1960 Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 (edited) I don't know how old you are but I heard this type of statement for over 30 years now and it's just a misunderstanding about what America is all about IMO. I not an economist so I'll talk more philosophically on this subject. The concentration of wealth or resources is a natural human condition that been happening for thousands of years. This is something you have to accept. America is not immune to this natural law. Being an American does not mean we are all equal and middle class, thats more of a Communist thought process. The ideal of America is to be born equal with equal rights and liberty. You are not born with the right to be rich, poor, or middle class. You are born with the rights and liberty unencumbered by a government, cast or nobility system to create opportunities to enrich yourself if you choose to whatever degree you choose. the problem with this argument is that it's based on the fallacy of a level playing field. one need only examine tax burdens as a percentage of wealth in the top 1-2 % versus the rest of the unwashed masses to obliterate that premise. Edited December 9, 2010 by birdog1960
whateverdude Posted December 9, 2010 Author Posted December 9, 2010 (edited) Class warfare began in 1980. Since then, policies have been tilted in favor of the upper incomes over the rest. Inequality peaked prior the the 1929 market crash, then fell until the 1940s, remaining steady until 1980, and now higher than 1929. The rich have been fighting to over-turn the New Deal for the past 30 years. There is a war, but it's been won by those who own the country. So, yeah, it's time the middle class fought back. Dude, I got news for you...true class warfare is a least 3000 years old indian caste system The middle class in America is indirectly proportional to the entitlement mindset. Edited December 9, 2010 by whateverdude
birdog1960 Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 Dude, I got news for you...true class warfare is a least 3000 years old indian caste system yes, that's something to aspire to. you would expect mankind to have learned something in all that time.
whateverdude Posted December 9, 2010 Author Posted December 9, 2010 the problem with this argument is that it's based on the fallacy of a level playing field. one need only examine tax burdens as a percentage of wealth in the top 1-2 % versus the rest of the unwashed masses to obliterate that premise. The unwashed masses don't pay taxes, in fact they are given unearned income tax credits, thats basically automatic welfare.
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