Is D.Bell the LT of the future?

[Rob's House]

Just the fact that we're having the discussion speaks volumes. In the offseason you'd have invited an onslaught of criticism for having the audacity to suggest that Bell didn't completely suck. Now we're discussing whether he's our "franchise" LT. With the improvement he's shown over the course of this season I see no reason to think he won't continue to develop into a one of the better all around LTs in the game.

[Fixxxer]

To me he's the LT of the present and the future until you find yourself in a position to get that great LT prospect. If in next year draft you are in position to get the next Long or Thomas you go and get him and see where Bell can become productive if not, he's tremendous depth.

Unfortunately there isn't one where we are projected to draft with our 1st round pick.

 

Right now, with the projections as they are, a good OT prospect should be there in the 2nd round, if he's BPA get him and let him compete with both Bell and Wrotto. As Thoner7 said (agreeing with your premise, not your %s), solidifying one position, helping one OT with a TE or a RB becomes easier than trying to help two OTs.

[Koufax]

... is a greater need so that should be the first pick.

 

If you don't want to build a great football team. If you want to build a great football team get great football players. When it is your pick, see if the LT or the DE or the LB or whoever is the best player. If you think the quality of player is the same, pick the one you need more. But if you reject a better LT for a DE, or a better LB for a LT because of what you think your 2-10 team needs, you aren't going to get the most value over five years of that pick. And if you do that over and over you are going to end up with a mediocre roster instead of a strong roster.

 

And I know Buddy is going to do that (since Spiller was at a position two deep with good players, but it didn't matter since he was considered the most talented guy available). I know that gets us upset after a dozen weeks of a career, but I want this team to be great again and eventually win the Super Bowl they couldn't in the 90s, and the best way to help that cause in the draft is to get the absolute best football players we can each and every pick, and not worry about what positions they play and what we think we need right at that moment.

 

Maybe coming off a 10-6 playoff season down the road it would be okay to focus on short term goals to round out that talented team at the sacrifice of longer term value, but coming off our 2-14 to 6-10 season this year I want the BPA each and every time, and have not heard a single good argument against that.

[Doc]

If you don't want to build a great football team. If you want to build a great football team get great football players. When it is your pick, see if the LT or the DE or the LB or whoever is the best player. If you think the quality of player is the same, pick the one you need more. But if you reject a better LT for a DE, or a better LB for a LT because of what you think your 2-10 team needs, you aren't going to get the most value over five years of that pick. And if you do that over and over you are going to end up with a mediocre roster instead of a strong roster.

 

And I know Buddy is going to do that (since Spiller was at a position two deep with good players, but it didn't matter since he was considered the most talented guy available). I know that gets us upset after a dozen weeks of a career, but I want this team to be great again and eventually win the Super Bowl they couldn't in the 90s, and the best way to help that cause in the draft is to get the absolute best football players we can each and every pick, and not worry about what positions they play and what we think we need right at that moment.

 

Maybe coming off a 10-6 playoff season down the road it would be okay to focus on short term goals to round out that talented team at the sacrifice of longer term value, but coming off our 2-14 to 6-10 season this year I want the BPA each and every time, and have not heard a single good argument against that.

There's a good chance that whatever pass rusher is there at the Bills' pick, will be the BPA as well.

[Sisyphean Bills]

There's a good chance that whatever pass rusher is there at the Bills' pick, will be the BPA as well.

Doc, what do you think about a BPA at WR?

[Astrobot]

yes to most of the above...

 

Bell is still young, raw, and recovering from injury.

 

FAR TOO MANY PEOPLE are freaking out about him getting schooled by Jared Allen - please - it's Jared Freaking Allen at home on a reinvigorated Vikings team with a new coach. Of course our young learning OLT had trouble - you will note they didn't help Bell out with a RB or TE. He did fine for where he is.

 

I also agree that moving him to ORT makes zero sense - his forte is his athleticism - not power. Draft some 360-pounder for ORT.

 

We need a TE that's a real 2-way threat, and 2-3 more LB's - one of whom is a stud OLB pass-rusher - and this team will be fine.

The guy we should be looking for at RT is Marcus Cannon from TCU. He was actually DraftTek's computer selection in RD#2 this week. I think he's this year's road grader run blocker.

[Doc]

Doc, what do you think about a BPA at WR?

You mean Green? No thanks.

[Johnny Hammersticks]

The guy we should be looking for at RT is Marcus Cannon from TCU. He was actually DraftTek's computer selection in RD#2 this week. I think he's this year's road grader run blocker.

 

He kinda reminds me of Phil Loadholt.

[John from Riverside]

Uh..how many probowls has Peters been to in a row? Apparently the opinions of those who matter, coaches and players, think he is elite. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Please don't think poorly of having the same opinion as the people who would know best.

 

 

It does not suprise me in the least that you use Pro Bowls to determine how good a player really is....I will leave it at that

[whodat]

I see those "move him to RT" posts too - baffling.

 

You take a guy who is athletic, moves well in space, appears to have the potential to be able to handle the outside speed rush, and has been groomed for playing LT and move him to RT (where you normally need a slightly slower and more easy to come by mauler) and then bring in a rookie to start at LT. It is thinking like that, that keeps our offensive line from ever coming together. I am all for picking up someone to provide some depth and to potentially groom for more work down the road, but that is a different discussion.

Come on man, snap out of it! When the heck did slower ever become a need. You should be writing for Saturday Night Live, I think they need the help. I like Bell though at either tackle spot but we need 2 more players free agency and high draft pick to fortify the position.

 

I would say Bob in STL no doubt about it has it down pat. Sounds like an ex-pro.

[Hplarrm]

It does not suprise me in the least that you use Pro Bowls to determine how good a player really is....I will leave it at that

There should be some reasonable middle-ground of agreement here.

 

John is correct that Pro Bowl recognition is far from a perfect indicator of the highest level performance by a player (for example witness Ruben Brown continually being awarded Pro Bowl status for umpty ump years in a row without seeming regard to the fact we Bills fan know that his performance varied between great Guard work and very troubled Guard work during that time. His Pro Bowl recognition simply did not accurately reflect his performance each year).

 

However, it would be outlandish for someone to claim that the Pro Bowl honors racked up by Ruben were meaningless completely due to these individual year errors.

 

My estimation (and feel free to educate with facts to indicate my estimation is wrong in toto) is that:

 

1. Ruben really had an outstanding career overall for the Bills and his solid record of quality play year in and year out anchoring the Bills OL is reasonably noted and reflected in his record of Pro Bowl acknowledgment. Individual years are certainly arguable but overall the Pro Bowl honors were a pretty good indicator of his performance and contributions as a player.

 

2. Though there were individual years the Pro Bowl honor did not seem merited by his performance in general this seemed to be an effect that there were few or no other Guards who performed so well that it clearly merited choosing them over choosing him virtually any one year and never when you look at total or consistent performance each year.

 

3. The Pro Bowl is NOT a completely accurate indicator of performance in any one given year. However, this popularity contest due to the diverse nature of voters whose views should not be ignored (the coaches know stuff and see lots of stuff we do not see- they do not see or analyze everyone but they should not be completely ignored, just not given total responsibility for choosing with any expectation of accuracy- the players know things about how their peers perform and who they fear to face in a big way that cannot be totally ignored, again it is not perfect as no players sees everyone and popularity factors in, but this should not be ignored- likewise fan sentiment is subject to gross inaccuracy and front running publicity, but ultimately the game is about entertaining the fans and as this survey is really one of huge sample size it should not be ignored completely.

 

Overall is the Pro Bowl an accurate indicator of play quality in a given year. For many case yes but for all cases no.

 

However, even if not a perfect indicator is it a far better measure than most others of a gross (or contractually more significant measure of performance? YES.

 

The Pro Bowl is not a perfect measure of good play in a given year but it is one of the better measures we have of solid performance over a career.

[PDaDdy]

There should be some reasonable middle-ground of agreement here.

 

John is correct that Pro Bowl recognition is far from a perfect indicator of the highest level performance by a player (for example witness Ruben Brown continually being awarded Pro Bowl status for umpty ump years in a row without seeming regard to the fact we Bills fan know that his performance varied between great Guard work and very troubled Guard work during that time. His Pro Bowl recognition simply did not accurately reflect his performance each year).

 

However, it would be outlandish for someone to claim that the Pro Bowl honors racked up by Ruben were meaningless completely due to these individual year errors.

 

My estimation (and feel free to educate with facts to indicate my estimation is wrong in toto) is that:

 

1. Ruben really had an outstanding career overall for the Bills and his solid record of quality play year in and year out anchoring the Bills OL is reasonably noted and reflected in his record of Pro Bowl acknowledgment. Individual years are certainly arguable but overall the Pro Bowl honors were a pretty good indicator of his performance and contributions as a player.

 

2. Though there were individual years the Pro Bowl honor did not seem merited by his performance in general this seemed to be an effect that there were few or no other Guards who performed so well that it clearly merited choosing them over choosing him virtually any one year and never when you look at total or consistent performance each year.

 

3. The Pro Bowl is NOT a completely accurate indicator of performance in any one given year. However, this popularity contest due to the diverse nature of voters whose views should not be ignored (the coaches know stuff and see lots of stuff we do not see- they do not see or analyze everyone but they should not be completely ignored, just not given total responsibility for choosing with any expectation of accuracy- the players know things about how their peers perform and who they fear to face in a big way that cannot be totally ignored, again it is not perfect as no players sees everyone and popularity factors in, but this should not be ignored- likewise fan sentiment is subject to gross inaccuracy and front running publicity, but ultimately the game is about entertaining the fans and as this survey is really one of huge sample size it should not be ignored completely.

 

Overall is the Pro Bowl an accurate indicator of play quality in a given year. For many case yes but for all cases no.

 

However, even if not a perfect indicator is it a far better measure than most others of a gross (or contractually more significant measure of performance? YES.

 

The Pro Bowl is not a perfect measure of good play in a given year but it is one of the better measures we have of solid performance over a career.

 

I agree to an extent with your points. One thing that we as fans don't seem to take into consideration is injuries. Peters came back from injury, had a so so year "for him" and he is an out of shape bum that sucks. Bell comes back from injury and people give him a pass and say that he is still getting healthy and has incredible upside. You can't use the same argument to support two opposite conclusions. Do I think there is some "reputation" involved in the pro bowl nominations. Sure, some. Players and coaches know who the good guys are that they have to game plan for. They might give that player the nod even if they have been nicked up because they feel that player is the best at that position when completely healthy.

 

I have been known to be arrogant and opinionated but even I'm not stupid enough to argue that probowl selections don't matter. Excuse me for trusting the opinions of the actual professionals and the guys that have to line up against a player over an internet forum blow hard like some here. I am one of those blow hards but that level of arrogance is well beyond even me.

 

Even though there may be some grey areas with the probowl you don't get in if you suck. You don't get in if you are average. Generally you get in by being the best. Buffalo fans lose all objectivity when they really do or don't like a guy like Peters. We have had some really good players on this team that bitchy buffalo fans whine and moan about. It seems like a forgotten thing of the past but back in the day Bills fans used to complain about Bruce Smith and Jim Kelly. Given the junk we have had at QB the last 15 years Kelly would be like a gift from god. Back in the day some people thought he sucked and Frank Reich should be the starter.

Edited December 10, 2010 by PDaDdy

[The Senator]

The guy we should be looking for at RT is Marcus Cannon from TCU. He was actually DraftTek's computer selection in RD#2 this week. I think he's this year's road grader run blocker.

This year's road-grader/run-blocker/blind-side protector is Gabe Carimi...

 

The Badger running game amassed 2,968 yards this season, punched in 46 touchdowns on the ground and produced three running backs who were considered for All-Big Ten honors. Every single time a crucial 3rd or 4th-and-1 came up, UW running backs just followed the right butt cheek of Carimi to pick up the first down. With Carimi protecting Tolzien’s blind side, the Badgers gave up just 12 sacks on the season.

 

Even more impressive, Carimi matched up against the conference best and came out wayyyy on top. Going up against Ohio State’s Cameron Heyward, Iowa’s Adrian Clayborn and Big Ten Defensive Player of the Year Ryan Kerrigan, Carimi limited the future NFL D-linemen to five tackles and one sack — combined.

 

Carimi deserves Big Ten Offensive Player of Year

 

Badgers run ball 29 straight times during second half

 

 

 

The Bills should take him in round one.

[Johnny Hammersticks]

This year's road-grader/run-blocker/blind-side protector is Gabe Carimi...

 

The Badger running game amassed 2,968 yards this season, punched in 46 touchdowns on the ground and produced three running backs who were considered for All-Big Ten honors. Every single time a crucial 3rd or 4th-and-1 came up, UW running backs just followed the right butt cheek of Carimi to pick up the first down. With Carimi protecting Tolzien’s blind side, the Badgers gave up just 12 sacks on the season.

 

Even more impressive, Carimi matched up against the conference best and came out wayyyy on top. Going up against Ohio State’s Cameron Heyward, Iowa’s Adrian Clayborn and Big Ten Defensive Player of the Year Ryan Kerrigan, Carimi limited the future NFL D-linemen to five tackles and one sack — combined.

 

Carimi deserves Big Ten Offensive Player of Year

 

Badgers run ball 29 straight times during second half

 

 

The Bills should take him in round one.

 

Love Carimi...watched a lot of Wisconsin football and he appears to be the real deal. The only way we take him in the first, however, is if we trade back. I see him going in the middle of round 1. Reason being...I don't think his skill set translates to LT in the NFL.

[PDaDdy]

Is this Carimi guy the same one that http://walterfootball.com/draft2011OT.php calls an over hyped, raw prospect who can't pass protect and lacks natural athleticism? OH BOY!!! Where do we sign this kid up????

[The Senator]

Love Carimi...watched a lot of Wisconsin football and he appears to be the real deal. The only way we take him in the first, however, is if we trade back. I see him going in the middle of round 1. Reason being...I don't think his skill set translates to LT in the NFL.

I see him more as a high-middle 1st round pick (right where the Bills will pick after we win the next 4 games) that someone will ' reach ' for in the top 10 - although I don't think it's much of a reach, but that's JMO. Also think his stock will continue to rise after the Rose Bowl.

 

Carimi's a LT - don't know why people say he'll be a RT, but they say that about almost every OT. Carimi has started 48 games for the Badgers, all at LT. He may begin his pro career at RT, like many or most OTs, but will play LT in the NFL...

 

 

The Parade High School All-American stayed home to play for his hometown Badgers despite the daunting task of replacing Joe Thomas, an All-American left tackle and third overall pick of the 2007 NFL draft. Carimi hasn't made Wisconsin fans forget about Thomas altogether, but he has played well enough to earn praise from coaches and owns the physical traits scouts like.

 

He redshirted his first season for the Badgers to add weight and experience, then earned Freshman All-American honors after taking over for Thomas on the blind side for all 13 games in 2007. He started 10 games as a sophomore, missing three mid-season games due to a knee injury suffered against Ohio State. Carimi then stepped up his game in 2009, earning second-team All-Big Ten notice from league coaches (voted first team by the media) after again starting all 13 contests.

 

Carimi is a potential top-10 pick because of his prototypical size, excellent athleticism and the importance placed on the left tackle position. NFL offensive line coaches won't like the way he bends at the waist and the number of plays he ends up on the ground, but will ask their general managers to take on a chance on his talent because he could be a long-time NFL starter.

 

(Link - CBS Sports - Player Profile)

 

 

 

Carimi has anchored Wisconsin's record-setting offensive line all season. The Badgers are the only team in the country to have three different running backs with at least 800 yards and they rank 12th in the country in rushing offense (247.3 ypg.). The Badgers lead the Big Ten and are tied for fourth in the country in scoring offense, averaging 43.3 points per game. QB Scott Tolzien has only been sacked 11 times this season. Carimi, with 48 career starts, is one of just three Badgers on the offensive side of the ball to start every game this season.

 

(Link - NFL Draft Scout Profile - Gabe Carimi)

 

 

 

Pretty sharp guy off the field, too...

 

GABE CARIMI APPLIES THE TEAM CONCEPT TO ENGINEERING SUCCESS

 

 

Gabe's gonna look great in Bills blue!

 

.

Edited December 10, 2010 by The Senator

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Senator, you're right about what you say about many college tackles being projected to play at right tackle in the NFL. I think often what it means is that scouts are not unanimous that the player can play left tackle.

 

I don't watch much college football and I'm familiar with Carimi in name only. But I remember when Jake Long came out that there was a similar sentiment expressed about him…that many scouts projected him as a right tackle.

 

In truth, all left tackles get beaten and are given help from time to time. The whole concept of putting a tackle on an island against the opposite team's best pass rusher is really overplayed. It doesn't happen that often and there's very few tackles in the NFL that are asked to do this continually, unless their opponent that week isn't an elite pass rusher.

 

The same things were said about Rodgers Saffold as were said about Carimi and Long. That's why Saffold was drafted in the 2nd round. Saffold is having an excellent rookie season as the St. Louis Rams' starting left tackle.

 

Meanwhile Jason Smith, who was projected as an elite left tackle prospect and a top ten pick by the Rams the year before, is playing right tackle.

 

In fact, Jason Smith was selected 2nd overall.

[ColdBlueNorth]

Come on man, snap out of it! When the heck did slower ever become a need. You should be writing for Saturday Night Live, I think they need the help. I like Bell though at either tackle spot but we need 2 more players free agency and high draft pick to fortify the position.

 

I would say Bob in STL no doubt about it has it down pat. Sounds like an ex-pro.

My reply to this is simple and I am not sure why I bothered, but I was bored so...

 

Teams do not go out of their way to find that elite Right Tackle. Most speed rushers rush from the left side of the line because that is "normally" the quarterbacks blind spot unless he is a south paw - think of where we lined up our best pass rushers (when we had pass rushers to speak of - Smith, Schobel...). That strategy of blind-side hits lends itself to more occasions of causing the QB to fumble or misfire on passes. Of course offenses will often try to help a LT by using a tight end or running back to assist in pass protection and defenses counter by moving their best pass rushers around or by using stunts and twists.

 

That is why the Left Tackle position requires a more athletic tackle or faster player than the right side, and most teams will pay a premium to fill that spot either devoting a high draft pick or by going after a proven commodity via free agency. Buffalo had success taking a freakishly athletic TE (considering his 300+ ;pound frame) named Jason Peters and converting him to LT. I think that Bell also has a tremendous amount of upside - and we have not scratched the surface yet with him. He just needs to get a bit stronger and we need to remember that this is only his first full year playing (last year was a wash with the injury and the coaching).

 

Generally you will see teams take someone who is not athletic enough to play LT and move him to RT or they will move a guard out to play that position. Most teams like to put bigger, stronger maulers on that side of the line to run behind. For one thing they are simply much easier to find. Run blocking does not require the lateral ability that pass blocking does. I am not saying that you cannot have really good linemen on the right side, I will always remember Howard "the House" Ballard who manned that position during our Superbowl years. He was huge and strong with a big wing-span, but he could be beaten on the outside by just about anyone with decent speed.

 

The draft will always be a crap shoot. When Buffalo took Mike Williams 4th overall in 2002 and the Vikings took McKinney with the 7th pick of that same draft, Mike was so slow and heavy that he could only play RT and we eventually had to jettison him because he just couldn't get down to a reasonable playing weight. Although McKinnie is still starting in this league, Viking fans still B word about him because he is wildly inconsistent, often injured, and has never quite lived up to expectations surrounding his high draft status.

 

I guess what I am saying is that if you are fortunate enough to find a player who shows potential and upside in his first full year of play at the LT position, it would be wise to be a bit patient with that player's development. There are no sure things when it comes to the draft.

[The Senator]

Is this Carimi guy the same one that http://walterfootball.com/draft2011OT.php calls an over hyped, raw prospect who can't pass protect and lacks natural athleticism? OH BOY!!! Where do we sign this kid up????

I think we can all see the blatant antisemitism in your remarks.

[whodat]

My reply to this is simple and I am not sure why I bothered, but I was bored so...

You forgot to add boring and irrelevant.