mead107 Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 Howdy ICE (and anyone who cares ir us amused enough by thie repetition to pay any attention) , I'm happy to take a crack at this as I am just back from a nice business trip to NYC and even posting on this beaten to death issue will be helpful for getting me back into the Bills swing of things. First, the major fault in the point of view you express is the word ONLY. The fact is that there are many things which are useful for the preparation of a QB to contribute in this league and while playing is certainly an essential one of them, iy is not the only thing a rookie needs to become a vet and in particular a QB needs to contribute to his team. Playing is essential but for some players it doesn't come first. Specifically, in order to contribute and to be more of a vet than a rookie, it strikes me that a QB needs: 1. Athleticism to play and contribute against pro athletes and at NFL speeds- The speed difference of the game is something virtually all players seem to mention as the biggest notable difference as the move to pro ball from college. I perceive a lot of this come from in the college game usually only 1 or 2 opponents play at MFL speeds and as a pro they all do. I think this is one of the main things a player gets from playing the game and nothing really is the same as playing against opponents who want to kill you and have the size and speed to do it. However, there is the large piece of reality that playing is actually finishing school for this factor as first every athlete plays serious against pro speed and NFL players in practice. Its not the same as a real game because the opponents are not trying to kill you (unless you are JP and rubbed your wearing of the practice tutu in TV and the Ds face enough that they take the opportunity that any game provides to not go out their way to hold back. Still I agree that only by playing can an athlete get a serious and the best sense of this, though even in this case the player must first get a taste of this in practice and show enough mastery to protect himself before you put him in a real game to perfect this part of his game. 2. Understanding and anticipating NFL defenses- Here again playing adds an essential element for a player as by all I have heard, the game looks different over the center's back, however, understanding the basics is so essential that to send a player into the game to play without him having a fundamental sense of the game which he will get from studying the playbook and watching tapes that it is rediculous to say that this only comes from playing. Particularly in the case of a QB who comes out of an offense that has nothing to do with the pro game (this is why many QBs were simply shifted to the safety position) or a player like JP who made great plays running for his life rather than running set plays the first thing they need to do is demonstrate that they have grasped the playbook and the tapes well enough to do themselves or their teammates some good. If you think that the classroom stuff is meaningless to playing the game well enough, I ask only that you remember back to Billy Joe Hobert who clearly demonstated that without attention to the off-field side of the equation, physical ability even for an experienced pro simply adds up to a bad and meaningless game. 3. Mechanics are key- chemistry is built between two players when they develop a second sense of what the other player is going to do in a given situation. In the NFL one might learn that and how a player will freelance in a given situation, but it is again simply rediculous in an oversystematized NFL to expect chemistry to be developed between players when the QB throws it differently each time. Losman in particular from the highlights I saw and the description of the professionals who saw him even more had worked with the ability to make off-balance throws and off the wrong foot. While this cut the mustard at Tulane where the vast majority of opponents were not fast enough to catch up with rainbow throws Losman was making off the wrong foot, pro defenders would eat him alive if he did this. Even worse with the Evans and folks of the world no chemistry would be developede or it would develop slowly if JP was making college level throws all the time. This work of ironing out mechanics is slow and hard from all I have heard and is best done in practice under the watchful eye of Wyche with scrubs or ball boys there to feed JP. 4. Leadership is esssential for a QB- Obviously JP being in the company of the boys us essential to developing this leadership so being a teammate and around the team is essential. However, nothing suceeds like success and JP needs to be in position where his games are far more than simple learning experiences where he makes mistakes, but actually situations where he experiences success which builds his confidence and the team experiences success under him. This is the difference from a world of JP where it is like he was in the NE game or the world of JP as he as in the Seattle blow out. I think you miss the boat completely when you did not see the great value (particularly after the NE debacle) him successfully handing the ball off to WM and leading the team to a TD under his guidance. The score was an achievement for any QB in this league as it actually seems rare when the lead the team to a TD at all. If you think this was so simple then explain for yourself why the NE game was so bad (another argument also why prep is necessary if you feel he was thrown into the game) and the lack of command he showed with an immediate delay of game penalty even in this successful outing. Leadership is something he will perfect only by playing but he will perfect it only by playing well. There are probably other things you could parse out but I think (and hope) this will do for now. The second fault in your past arguments (though you don't make it specifically here so maybe you have learned the errors of your past thinking)is that starting is not the only way to play. Players do fact NFL opponents at NFL speeds. see the game over the center's back, and do other important game simlulations in practice. They aren't the same as playing, but if a player can't master these simulations he is not ready to play. Most important for a players development however is that before he starts he can and usually should be given ample opportunities TO PLAY in a mop up role in games. Why you are so addicted to having JP start when he can PLAY in games as a sub is beyond me. In summary, how can a player not be ready to start- 1. If he has not had enough practice against his own team to protect himself against opponents, a player can hurt himself by starting if the result is going to be he gets hurt and knocked ot of games. Given that JP even got hurt in practice, i is clear the coaches must be sure he will protect himself adequately in real games before sending him out there to play a full 60. 2, If JP has not adequately demonstrated to the braintrust that he has sufficient understanding of NFL offense and defenses, not only will he play like a Hobert, but he will do his own development little good if not harm. In particular, is a QB does not learn how to adequately read blitzes, he can develop happy feet as TC did and be ruined. 3. He obviously must have pro mechanics not develop bad habits for himself and to develop good chemistry. 4. I think he has the spirt and Kelly like cockiness to be a good leader, but he needs to suceed to build true leadership and confidence and the braintrust must feel that he is ready in terms of mechanics, being more like a vet and protecting himself in order to develop his leadership. If JP is missing any or all of the elements he probably is not ready. 154499[/snapback] this takes to long to read . can someone give me the short side of the story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 You guys have no fuggin clue about sports in general. Sitting does NOTHING in sports but make your butt sore. It is better to go out and get your ass kicked and LEARN from your mistakes than sit on your ass....delaying the fact you WILL go out and get your ass kicked. 154244[/snapback] Yeah, I guess all those coaches and QBs who have said that sitting a year can be a huge help don't have a "fugin clue about sports in general" either. If only they had your expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Tate Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 I think the Giants might be ruining this guy before his career even starts. 154208[/snapback] I don't think it's going to ruin his career. But replacing Kurt Warner with the rookie has apparently ruined the Giant's chance at the playoffs this year, based upon their record before and since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 I'm not a big Steve Young fan, but I agree with him when he says "who cares?" any time this topic comes up. The mental aspect of playing QB in the NFL goes way beyond what any fan will ever realize, including myself. It's just a given that you have to be mentally tough to play the position well at that level. If a rough start is going to destroy the confidence for the rest of your career, then you were never cut out to play in the first place. Ryan Leif and Peyton Manning were both "rushed" into the starting lineup their rookie seasons on equally bad teams and they both had lousy rookie years. One turned out to be successful because he's good, the other bombed because he stunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 I'm not a big Steve Young fan, but I agree with him when he says "who cares?" any time this topic comes up. The mental aspect of playing QB in the NFL goes way beyond what any fan will ever realize, including myself. It's just a given that you have to be mentally tough to play the position well at that level. If a rough start is going to destroy the confidence for the rest of your career, then you were never cut out to play in the first place. Ryan Leif and Peyton Manning were both "rushed" into the starting lineup their rookie seasons on equally bad teams and they both had lousy rookie years. One turned out to be successful because he's good, the other bombed because he stunk. 154903[/snapback] You can spend a year in school, doing nothing but studying the language and culture of the country you're going to be living in for the next 10 years. That education doesn't make you a native. Peyton's rookie year wasn't statistically all that lousy (didn't he throw something like 26 TDs?), but your point is valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 this takes to long to read . can someone give me the short side of the story 154617[/snapback] Your wish is my command: Cliff notes begin: Don't worry (unlike ICE), be happy (like most Bills fans are with blow-out wins). Cliff notes end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 Your wish is my command: Cliff notes begin: Don't worry (unlike ICE), be happy (like most Bills fans are with blow-out wins). Cliff notes end 155154[/snapback] Damn. Even the Cliffs Notes are long winded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habes1280 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Played many, succeded in all of them. 154459[/snapback] Either you continue to brandish athletic achievements which are ten years cold, or your braggadocio is regarding vaulted "men's leagues", and your problem runs deeper than I expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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