Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 A better defense (LB's and DE) would often shorten the field for Fitz, a better RT, a TE who can catch passes, and another year under the belt for Steve Johnson would likely make Fitz look much better. If Balt can win a SB with Trent Dilfer, we could go far with Fitz and a strong team around him. In Buffalo's weather, you really need to count a defense and the running game to win late in the season anyway, so why worry abot getting a stud QB. There are bigger needs. Personally I hope they trade down a few slots and get extra picks. As was mentioned though too many more wins this year will move them down far enough on their own that trading won't get them much, maybe an extra 3rd rounder. The value of picks drops off very fast after around the top three.
KOKBILLS Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 (edited) A better defense (LB's and DE) would often shorten the field for Fitz, a better RT, a TE who can catch passes, and another year under the belt for Steve Johnson would likely make Fitz look much better. If Balt can win a SB with Trent Dilfer, we could go far with Fitz and a strong team around him. In Buffalo's weather, you really need to count a defense and the running game to win late in the season anyway, so why worry abot getting a stud QB. There are bigger needs. Personally I hope they trade down a few slots and get extra picks. As was mentioned though too many more wins this year will move them down far enough on their own that trading won't get them much, maybe an extra 3rd rounder. The value of picks drops off very fast after around the top three. "If Baltimore Won a SB with Trent Dilfer"...Okey Doke... Do you have any idea how much better the Baltimore and Tampa Bay Rosters had to be at EVERY Position in order to Win a Super Bowl?...Those Teams are the exception to the Rule and it's not even close for God's sake...If you want to build your Super Bowl Team in that manner it's fine...The rest of the league will be searching for the great QB...Cause that's what gets Teams to the SB, and wins SB's more often than not...Great play at the QB Position... Let's look at the last 20...Yes, 20 Super Bowl Winners...What did 17 of the 20 have? Outstanding QB play...17 out of 20, or 85%...I would say those odds are pretty convincing...Troy Aikman(3 SB Wins, 1 SB MVP, 1st Ballot HOF QB), Mark Rypien (SB MVP and 2 time Pro Bowl QB who was playing out of his mind the year the Skins won it all), Steve Young (1 SB win, 1st Ballot HOF QB), Brett Favre (1 SB win, will be 1st Ballot HOF QB), John Elway (2 SB Wins, 1 SB MVP, 1st ballot HOF QB), Kurt Warner (1 SB Win, SB MVP, probable 1st Ballot HOF QB), Tom Brady (3 SB Wins, 2 SB MVP's, LOCK 1st Ballot HOF QB), Big Ben (2 SB Wins), Eli Manning (1 SB win, #1 Overall draft Pick), Peyton Manning (1 SB Win, SB MVP, LOCK 1st Ballot HOF QB), Drew Brees (1 SB Win, SB MVP, 4 time Pro Bowl QB, Comeback of the Year in 2004 and Offensive Player of the Year in 2008)... So how do you want to build a Super Bowl winning Team?... I thought so... Edited November 20, 2010 by KOKBILLS
PromoTheRobot Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 "If Baltimore Won a SB with Trent Dilfer"...Okey Doke... Do you have any idea how much better the Baltimore and Tampa Bay Rosters had to be at EVERY Position in order to Win a Super Bowl?...Those Teams are the exception to the Rule and it's not even close for God's sake...If you want to build your Super Bowl Team in that manner it's fine...The rest of the league will be searching for the great QB...Cause that's what gets Teams to the SB, and wins SB's more often than not...Great play at the QB Position... Let's look at the last 20...Yes, 20 Super Bowl Winners...What did 17 of the 20 have? Outstanding QB play...17 out of 20, or 85%...I would say those odds are pretty convincing...Troy Aikman(3 SB Wins, 1 SB MVP, 1st Ballot HOF QB), Mark Rypien (SB MVP and 2 time Pro Bowl QB who was playing out of his mind the year the Skins won it all), Steve Young (1 SB win, 1st Ballot HOF QB), Brett Favre (1 SB win, will be 1st Ballot HOF QB), John Elway (2 SB Wins, 1 SB MVP, 1st ballot HOF QB), Kurt Warner (1 SB Win, SB MVP, probable 1st Ballot HOF QB), Tom Brady (3 SB Wins, 2 SB MVP's, LOCK 1st Ballot HOF QB), Big Ben (2 SB Wins), Eli Manning (1 SB win, #1 Overall draft Pick), Peyton Manning (1 SB Win, SB MVP, LOCK 1st Ballot HOF QB), Drew Brees (1 SB Win, SB MVP, 4 time Pro Bowl QB, Comeback of the Year in 2004 and Offensive Player of the Year in 2008)... So how do you want to build a Super Bowl winning Team?... I thought so... Just curious...how many of those QBs were #1 picks overall? PTR
Austin_Bills_Fan Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 "If Baltimore Won a SB with Trent Dilfer"...Okey Doke... Do you have any idea how much better the Baltimore and Tampa Bay Rosters had to be at EVERY Position in order to Win a Super Bowl?...Those Teams are the exception to the Rule and it's not even close for God's sake...If you want to build your Super Bowl Team in that manner it's fine...The rest of the league will be searching for the great QB...Cause that's what gets Teams to the SB, and wins SB's more often than not...Great play at the QB Position... Let's look at the last 20...Yes, 20 Super Bowl Winners...What did 17 of the 20 have? Outstanding QB play...17 out of 20, or 85%...I would say those odds are pretty convincing...Troy Aikman(3 SB Wins, 1 SB MVP, 1st Ballot HOF QB), Mark Rypien (SB MVP and 2 time Pro Bowl QB who was playing out of his mind the year the Skins won it all), Steve Young (1 SB win, 1st Ballot HOF QB), Brett Favre (1 SB win, will be 1st Ballot HOF QB), John Elway (2 SB Wins, 1 SB MVP, 1st ballot HOF QB), Kurt Warner (1 SB Win, SB MVP, probable 1st Ballot HOF QB), Tom Brady (3 SB Wins, 2 SB MVP's, LOCK 1st Ballot HOF QB), Big Ben (2 SB Wins), Eli Manning (1 SB win, #1 Overall draft Pick), Peyton Manning (1 SB Win, SB MVP, LOCK 1st Ballot HOF QB), Drew Brees (1 SB Win, SB MVP, 4 time Pro Bowl QB, Comeback of the Year in 2004 and Offensive Player of the Year in 2008)... So how do you want to build a Super Bowl winning Team?... I thought so... And most of those teams had great defense and O line. These two things are more imortant than a star QB. Defense wins playoff games ..
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 (edited) Just curious...how many of those QBs were #1 picks overall? PTR A couple months back I did a "deep dive" into superbowl QB of recent years and posted the conclusions here. I didn't restrict to winning QB, in part because everybody seems to believe Kelly was a true top-tier franchise QB, and, well... SB QB Background The bottom line was that 50% of Superbowl QB in last 15 years SB were 3rd round or later draft choices There were differences in how quickly QB who wound up in the Superbowl became successful when they were 1st round draft choices vs drafted late I agree with the poster who pointed out many QB were playing out of their mind the year their team won the Superbowl, not sure what the point is tho; many of these QB were kinda undistinguished b4 and after? - maybe their "out of mind" play had to do with the pieces around them and the scheme? For those who are interested, enjoy! For those who want to pick it apart (only the last 7 years count, only the winning QB count etcetera), also enjoy! PS I think I still have the data summary table if someone can tell me how to get it to insert in a nifty table form. PM me. Edited November 20, 2010 by Hopeful
KOKBILLS Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 Just curious...how many of those QBs were #1 picks overall? PTR Y'all crack me up...You've always got an angle...10 years of losing has deadened the senses I guess... How many #1 Overall DE's end up being Bruce Smith? Aikman, Elway, Eli, and Peyton were 1st Overall...Young was the 1st Player taken in the Supplemental Draft...That's 8 of the last 20 SB's right there...Big Ben was #11 Overall in a Top heavy QB Draft...That's 10 of the last 20...Already half...But don't play dumb...Where would Brady, Favre, Warner, and Brees have gone had Teams know what type of NFL QB's they would become? Of coarse not everyone was #1 Overall, nor does every #1 Overall QB pan out...There is a strong possibility The Bills will not even get the chance to take Luck or Mallett...The point is IF they get that chance they ARE going to take it and they should...Both QB's have the...and yes here comes the p-word...but they have the potential to be Franchise QB's for the next 10 years plus...And that is the best, quickest, and most efficient angle to becoming a Championship competitor in the NFL...It's shooting for greatness, not trying to do everything the hard way just cause it's possible... The point is not if a Team can be built around Fitz because of coarse that is possible...It's also possible that I will be the next President of the US...It's possible, I qualify...The true point is IF The Bills have a chance to take Luck or Mallett they should do so...And I think they will...And I'll support them in the decision even if Mallett or Luck fail...Because I know they are trying to be great...Not trying to figure a way to buck the trend and win a SB with a QB the caliber of Ryan Fitzpatrick...All due respect to Fitz who plays hard and is certainly a serviceable guy...I like Fitz and if The Bills choose to build around him I hope he proves me wrong...But I'd rather like him as my back-up...
benderbender Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 Any QB we draft won't immediately start. I'm fine with Fitz leading for another year. He's done well with what little he has had to work with.
Alphadawg7 Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 (edited) The Bills have been in a re build mode since when? TOO DAMN LONG !!!! So, why dont we build around Fitz as out #1 QB ? Why would we want a new QB out of the draft? If they did who would they bench? the team would be set much further back with a draft QB, which there is never a quarentee that he would be able to step up into the NFL. The draft focus should be set around getting the players that they could build upon on defense and offense. Have you watched any other game outside of the one Balt game? Especially the 3 games since Balt? In case you havent, here is his stat line since Balt: 67-123, 54% comp, 668 yds, 3 TD's, 3 INT's for a QB rating of 68.07 So let me get this straight, this is who you want to build around? You do realize almost a 1/3rd of his TD's came in one game right? Or how about how he has 5 INT's in his last 4 games, including ones with the game on the line and literally about a dozen other ones that were dropped by DB's. He also got 3 TD's in garbage time in the final minutes of the Jets, NE, and Jax game when the game was out of reach (one each), inluding two of which came in the final 1-2 minutes. In large portions of the games against NE, Jets, KC, Det, Chi he was ineffective. The only "good" game he had was Balt, and yet even that game his 2 INT's in the 3rd gave away our lead for good and had us playing catch up the rest of the game. On paper, Jax looks better then it was, but he was only really effective in the 1st half. His 3rd TD was one of those garbage time TD's against prevent giving him the middle of the field and just keeping everything in bounds. Its amazing how so many Bills fan get in a love affair over one game with certain players and never let that one game go and take it as the norm. Fitz is better then Trent, but that doesnt make him a good QB to build around. His accuracy has consistently gotten worse as the season progressed and his now under 60% on the season. Good QB's who are improving dont have their accuracy continue to go down... Bottom line is, who do you think the real Fitz is? The 2 week stat line against Jax and Balt, or the Fitz that has shown up in the other 5 games? Clearly one has shown up more then the other, and thats not even including last year where he appeared in 10 games, completed just 56% of his passes, had more INT's then TD's and a 69.7 rating. Edited November 20, 2010 by Alphadawg7
Hplarrm Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 Y'all crack me up...You've always got an angle...10 years of losing has deadened the senses I guess... How many #1 Overall DE's end up being Bruce Smith? Aikman, Elway, Eli, and Peyton were 1st Overall...Young was the 1st Player taken in the Supplemental Draft...That's 8 of the last 20 SB's right there...Big Ben was #11 Overall in a Top heavy QB Draft...That's 10 of the last 20...Already half...But don't play dumb...Where would Brady, Favre, Warner, and Brees have gone had Teams know what type of NFL QB's they would become? Of coarse not everyone was #1 Overall, nor does every #1 Overall QB pan out...There is a strong possibility The Bills will not even get the chance to take Luck or Mallett...The point is IF they get that chance they ARE going to take it and they should...Both QB's have the...and yes here comes the p-word...but they have the potential to be Franchise QB's for the next 10 years plus...And that is the best, quickest, and most efficient angle to becoming a Championship competitor in the NFL...It's shooting for greatness, not trying to do everything the hard way just cause it's possible... The point is not if a Team can be built around Fitz because of coarse that is possible...It's also possible that I will be the next President of the US...It's possible, I qualify...The true point is IF The Bills have a chance to take Luck or Mallett they should do so...And I think they will...And I'll support them in the decision even if Mallett or Luck fail...Because I know they are trying to be great...Not trying to figure a way to buck the trend and win a SB with a QB the caliber of Ryan Fitzpatrick...All due respect to Fitz who plays hard and is certainly a serviceable guy...I like Fitz and if The Bills choose to build around him I hope he proves me wrong...But I'd rather like him as my back-up... The point though is not a count of how many of these SB worthy QBs were #1s, but in fact how did these SB worthy teams acquire them. From your own list of notables, Aikman, Peyton and RoboQBs were the ones who delivered an SB win to the teams which drafted them. When I started my ongoing rant that #1 drafted QBs were quite available through means other than drafting them in fact it was prior to the aberration of Manning FINALLY delivering an SB win and RoboQB finding his way onto a team where he was a critical addition. The simple fact is that drafting a QB who will bring the team that drafted him an SB is far from the no-brainer that folks who insist we draft a QB with our 1st pick insist. Again, the simple facts are that your franchise QB can be found in bargain basement haunts such Wamer getting his last paycheck before his SB season from Walmart where he was a boxboy. Sure a Warner is a rarity, but so too was an Aikman. Even if you choose to pump up the rare cases where you draft a QB who delivers an SB win to the team which chose him in the first with the real world examples of Peyton and Robo, this gets you to the real world problem that there are unfortunately a lot more examples of Akili Smith's, Ryan Leafs and JaMarcus Russells than there are of winners. Add to the list of not going #1 for a QB the real world examples of the Tom Bradys where arguably the best QB in football cost a mere 6th rounder and was passed on by everyteam multiple times. Add on the "busts| like Dilfer, Young, Favre, and even Brad Johnson twice who were run out of town then led another team to an SB win and again the no-brainer of picking a QB in the first starts to show no brain. Perhaps the strongest reinforcement for your argument is to choose to simply ignore the real fact that Elway and Eli were in fact acquired by trade rather than the draft and you can claim to expand your list. However this convenient reading ignore the fact that the teams which acquired them did so for a specific reason as they judged their teams were a player away and a specific quality QB would put them over the top. Do you really want to argue that this Bills team is a player away from the SB. Think about what you are expecting. This QB is NOT going to come here and be the missing piece which helps raise all games to put us in SB contention. Instead you are expecting this wunderkind QB to come here with inconsistent OL protection, virtual zero TE production, a hopeful backfield situation that like it or not is in development, amd a D which appears to be a couple of players away from consistent adequacy. Even in situations like Indy or Denver,these prototype QBs were building on an existing state of excellence and they still needed big time help before the ultimate goal was achieved. Unless Luck, Malllett, Locker or whomever is the flavor of the moment comes in here with a pro quick release and a vets ability to read pro Ds, AND the command to help Hamgartner with line calls against DCs, quite frankly the first rounder is likely to be killed. Why do you think not that this yet to be clearly named QB is good enough (the fact is he probably will not be as a rookie) but actually whether the Bills are good enough to win with even a very talented rookie QB? Will the Buffalo media led by Sully and GR and stoked with a loud minority of fans demand that this rookie QB produced immediately as they insist a 1st rounder should (an in depth look at one year with a general consensus of a strong draft class found that only 50% of first round picks were starters as the second season began. The conventional wisdom that a 1st round pick must be a starter is simply wrong. The facts are tough but cannot be ignored if you want to win. The simple fact is that it is a rare 1st round pick who delivers an SB win to the team which picked him. You can spin all you want by ignoring the fact that the many 1st round winners you yourself site were in fact acquired by their team through non draft means, but at least acknowledge that you are spinning. Even worse, there are significant downsides which a rational fan should at least acknowledge why this is the team and the situation where making the no-brainer pick might easily be fatal and the more holistic approach of merely risking a late draft pick or signing a failed FA makes a lot more sense for this Bills team in real life,
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 Yeah so out of those 20 SB, there were 10 QB's total. And out of those 10, I'd probably take out Rypien and quite frankly the jury is still somewhat out on Eli Manning and even Brees. Would I use the 1st overall pick on another Peyton Manning. In a heartbeat. But for every Peyton Manning, there are three Akili Smiths, Rick Mirer, and Ryan Leaf's! The odds are better in getting a Leaf than another Manning. Or you may get a Rypien type who hasa few good years, but all in all, had more bad years than good ones. Actually I'd more compare him to my original point about Trent Dilfer than many of the others in your list You better have a hell of a team around him. So yeah, that's the problem you need one of these guys to win a SB, but the odds aren't in your favor of getting one. Thats why there are many repeat winners as there aren't enough good QB's to go around. Thats the biggest problem IMO of the NFL, 30 teams and about a dozen good QB's to go around. And they don't go around, they stay with the same teams therefore those teams win and no one else does. So given thatI think I'd rather take my chances with Fitz and good team around him than throwing all my eggs in one basket of getting the next Peyton Manning. Also as was pointed out many of those guys weren't even top draft picks. What was Brady a 6th rounder? Kurt Warner was found stocking shelfs in a supermarket. Let's look at the last 20...Yes, 20 Super Bowl Winners...What did 17 of the 20 have? Outstanding QB play...17 out of 20, or 85%...I would say those odds are pretty convincing...Troy Aikman(3 SB Wins, 1 SB MVP, 1st Ballot HOF QB), Mark Rypien (SB MVP and 2 time Pro Bowl QB who was playing out of his mind the year the Skins won it all), Steve Young (1 SB win, 1st Ballot HOF QB), Brett Favre (1 SB win, will be 1st Ballot HOF QB), John Elway (2 SB Wins, 1 SB MVP, 1st ballot HOF QB), Kurt Warner (1 SB Win, SB MVP, probable 1st Ballot HOF QB), Tom Brady (3 SB Wins, 2 SB MVP's, LOCK 1st Ballot HOF QB), Big Ben (2 SB Wins), Eli Manning (1 SB win, #1 Overall draft Pick), Peyton Manning (1 SB Win, SB MVP, LOCK 1st Ballot HOF QB), Drew Brees (1 SB Win, SB MVP, 4 time Pro Bowl QB, Comeback of the Year in 2004 and Offensive Player of the Year in 2008)... So how do you want to build a Super Bowl winning Team?... I thought so... So let me get this straight, this is who you want to build around? You do realize almost a 1/3rd of his TD's came in one game right? Or how about how he has 5 INT's in his last 4 games, including ones with the game on the line and literally about a dozen other ones that were dropped by DB's. He also got 3 TD's in garbage time in the final minutes of the Jets, NE, and Jax game when the game was out of reach (one each), inluding two of which came in the final 1-2 minutes. In large portions of the games against NE, Jets, KC, Det, Chi he was ineffective. Bottom line is, who do you think the real Fitz is? The 2 week stat line against Jax and Balt, or the Fitz that has shown up in the other 5 games? Clearly one has shown up more then the other, and thats not even including last year where he appeared in 10 games, completed just 56% of his passes, had more INT's then TD's and a 69.7 rating.
Zulu Cthulhu Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 No your LAMP is the definition of spinning. You literally made zero coherent points in that diatribe. The ramblings of a madman.
Alphadawg7 Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 (edited) The point though is not a count of how many of these SB worthy QBs were #1s, but in fact how did these SB worthy teams acquire them. From your own list of notables, Aikman, Peyton and RoboQBs were the ones who delivered an SB win to the teams which drafted them. When I started my ongoing rant that #1 drafted QBs were quite available through means other than drafting them in fact it was prior to the aberration of Manning FINALLY delivering an SB win and RoboQB finding his way onto a team where he was a critical addition. The simple fact is that drafting a QB who will bring the team that drafted him an SB is far from the no-brainer that folks who insist we draft a QB with our 1st pick insist. Again, the simple facts are that your franchise QB can be found in bargain basement haunts such Wamer getting his last paycheck before his SB season from Walmart where he was a boxboy. Sure a Warner is a rarity, but so too was an Aikman. Even if you choose to pump up the rare cases where you draft a QB who delivers an SB win to the team which chose him in the first with the real world examples of Peyton and Robo, this gets you to the real world problem that there are unfortunately a lot more examples of Akili Smith's, Ryan Leafs and JaMarcus Russells than there are of winners. Add to the list of not going #1 for a QB the real world examples of the Tom Bradys where arguably the best QB in football cost a mere 6th rounder and was passed on by everyteam multiple times. Add on the "busts| like Dilfer, Young, Favre, and even Brad Johnson twice who were run out of town then led another team to an SB win and again the no-brainer of picking a QB in the first starts to show no brain. Perhaps the strongest reinforcement for your argument is to choose to simply ignore the real fact that Elway and Eli were in fact acquired by trade rather than the draft and you can claim to expand your list. However this convenient reading ignore the fact that the teams which acquired them did so for a specific reason as they judged their teams were a player away and a specific quality QB would put them over the top. Do you really want to argue that this Bills team is a player away from the SB. Think about what you are expecting. This QB is NOT going to come here and be the missing piece which helps raise all games to put us in SB contention. Instead you are expecting this wunderkind QB to come here with inconsistent OL protection, virtual zero TE production, a hopeful backfield situation that like it or not is in development, amd a D which appears to be a couple of players away from consistent adequacy. Even in situations like Indy or Denver,these prototype QBs were building on an existing state of excellence and they still needed big time help before the ultimate goal was achieved. Unless Luck, Malllett, Locker or whomever is the flavor of the moment comes in here with a pro quick release and a vets ability to read pro Ds, AND the command to help Hamgartner with line calls against DCs, quite frankly the first rounder is likely to be killed. Why do you think not that this yet to be clearly named QB is good enough (the fact is he probably will not be as a rookie) but actually whether the Bills are good enough to win with even a very talented rookie QB? Will the Buffalo media led by Sully and GR and stoked with a loud minority of fans demand that this rookie QB produced immediately as they insist a 1st rounder should (an in depth look at one year with a general consensus of a strong draft class found that only 50% of first round picks were starters as the second season began. The conventional wisdom that a 1st round pick must be a starter is simply wrong. The facts are tough but cannot be ignored if you want to win. The simple fact is that it is a rare 1st round pick who delivers an SB win to the team which picked him. You can spin all you want by ignoring the fact that the many 1st round winners you yourself site were in fact acquired by their team through non draft means, but at least acknowledge that you are spinning. Even worse, there are significant downsides which a rational fan should at least acknowledge why this is the team and the situation where making the no-brainer pick might easily be fatal and the more holistic approach of merely risking a late draft pick or signing a failed FA makes a lot more sense for this Bills team in real life, First off this logic is largely flawed as the only barometer you are using to judge a QB is a SB win in your argument. There have been plenty of great QB's who didnt win or even play in a Super Bowl. That being said, the position where a single player has the most impact on a team is QB, making it the single most important POSITION in football, and arguably all of sports. Teams like Balt won a SB with the likes of Dilfer because they had lots of talent at MANY positions on defense, the O Line, and RB. A team can make up for subpar QB play, but it takes many key players at many postions. Look at Washington last year with Orakpo and SF since they got Willis for example. They got 2 key players that most Bills fans desperately wanted in Orakpo and Willis. The impact on the success of the team has been minimal despite significant individual success. Now look at teams who immediately turned around once a real QB stepped on the field. Like when Warner, who you mentioned, took the Rams from last to SB Champ in one year with essentially the exact same team for the most part that was there the year before. Or Atl when they drafted Ryan...or Balt when they drafted Flacco...Or Sea when they traded for Hasselbeck...or Pitt when they drafted Big Ben...or NO when they signed Brees...or SF when they drafted Montana... You can go on for an hour of teams who made remarkable and immediate turn arounds once acquiring a franchise QB. I cant think of a single team in NFL history where a defensive player had the same immediate impact on a terrible teams win loss record let alone a SB berth/win. That being said, that doesn't mean the only way to acquire a franchise caliber QB is in the first round of a draft. So, you dont just draft a QB in the top 10 to just draft a QB...at the same time, you dont pass on a franchise caliber QB (if our FO grades one to be there) just because its "possible" to find one through other means, thats stupid. Like I said, no ONE position in football is more important then QB. If a guy is there that the FO views as someone who will succeed and be our franchise guy for the next decade, you take him. If there isnt one there they like enough, you take someone else...its that simple. Edited November 20, 2010 by Alphadawg7
KOKBILLS Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 Yeah so out of those 20 SB, there were 10 QB's total. And out of those 10, I'd probably take out Rypien and quite frankly the jury is still somewhat out on Eli Manning and even Brees. Would I use the 1st overall pick on another Peyton Manning. In a heartbeat. But for every Peyton Manning, there are three Akili Smiths, Rick Mirer, and Ryan Leaf's! The odds are better in getting a Leaf than another Manning. Or you may get a Rypien type who hasa few good years, but all in all, had more bad years than good ones. Actually I'd more compare him to my original point about Trent Dilfer than many of the others in your list You better have a hell of a team around him. So yeah, that's the problem you need one of these guys to win a SB, but the odds aren't in your favor of getting one. Thats why there are many repeat winners as there aren't enough good QB's to go around. Thats the biggest problem IMO of the NFL, 30 teams and about a dozen good QB's to go around. And they don't go around, they stay with the same teams therefore those teams win and no one else does. So given thatI think I'd rather take my chances with Fitz and good team around him than throwing all my eggs in one basket of getting the next Peyton Manning. Also as was pointed out many of those guys weren't even top draft picks. What was Brady a 6th rounder? Kurt Warner was found stocking shelfs in a supermarket. I really don't think the Jury is still out on Eli and Brees...There both pretty solid and they're both better than Fitz... I actually think you made my point for me...I'm going to assume for the sake of argument The Bills feel Luck or Mallett is a Franchise guy...A QB you build a Team around that can win Championships in the NFL...That's why The Bills HAVE to take one of them if they get the chance...Because QB's like that come around once every few years...And the the potential reward of taking a QB instead of say...a DE from Ohio St...is definitely worth the risk of missing on that QB because the goal is to win a SB not win 7 games...
Adam Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 The Bills have been in a re build mode since when? TOO DAMN LONG !!!! So, why dont we build around Fitz as out #1 QB ? Why would we want a new QB out of the draft? If they did who would they bench? the team would be set much further back with a draft QB, which there is never a quarentee that he would be able to step up into the NFL. The draft focus should be set around getting the players that they could build upon on defense and offense. Fitz can't make all the throws and he isn't big in the clutch. You start with QB and pass rusher. Yes, I knwo we have had the worst lines in the league for the last decade and that has to be fixed too. We won't be a contender next season and fans have no choice but to accept it.
Hplarrm Posted November 21, 2010 Posted November 21, 2010 I really don't think the Jury is still out on Eli and Brees...There both pretty solid and they're both better than Fitz... I actually think you made my point for me...I'm going to assume for the sake of argument The Bills feel Luck or Mallett is a Franchise guy...A QB you build a Team around that can win Championships in the NFL...That's why The Bills HAVE to take one of them if they get the chance...Because QB's like that come around once every few years...And the the potential reward of taking a QB instead of say...a DE from Ohio St...is definitely worth the risk of missing on that QB because the goal is to win a SB not win 7 games... I think the jury actually can conclude about Eli and Brees is this: 1. Eli demonstrates that if you have a good enough TEAM then the right QB can put you over the top. Thus do not worry about drafting that one right QB as Eli is a clear case where you can acquire the QB you want in a trade. 2. Brees is another perfect example of why one should not get all psychotic about you must draft this or that QB since the reality was this franchise QB whom you yourself the jury is settled upon was acquired by other means than the draft. Talk about making the case for not getting so psychotic about the draft that the team must take the current QB of the moment be it Locker, Mallet or Luck or whomever Mel Kiper declares as the cannot miss pick next week. The Bills should pass on taking a QB in the first because: 1. There are ample cases of QBs drafted in the first who become available when they get run out of their first town only to become HOF players. 2. Gailey's O style depends on factors which good production out of fairly pedestrian vet QBs. We have seen him do this with Fiedler, Bulger, Kordell and now Fitz. If there is evidence of him developing a rookie into a franchise QB I would love to see it. The signs point to a vet being the thing which gets the most production from the Bills. 3. This team is a player and a half (starting RT and a swing guy who fits in lots of places when the usual dings occur. In addition, the Bills still have not gotten a handle on adequate use of the TE position. I do not see the Bills acquiring all these players AND also filling the holes we need to fill on DE and LB if we waste our 1st rounder in a franchise QB (who likely is gonna get killed his first season behind our short of talent but developing OL). 4, Virtually without regard to how talented this rookie may one day be one can easily see how the media moneymakers like Sully and WGR are going to delight in running this rookie out of town as soon as they can. Ironically, a small but loud faction of Bills fans will actually participate in this anti-Bills effort by first raising expectations for the next savior and then turning on him if like Peyton Manning as a rookie he leads the team to the same record. It seems pretty clear to me that if we take a rookie with the first this team almost certainly will be condemned to failure.
Tom Posted November 21, 2010 Posted November 21, 2010 (edited) We need a franchise QB....... Period. Edited November 21, 2010 by Tom
Fan in San Diego Posted November 21, 2010 Posted November 21, 2010 Y'all crack me up...You've always got an angle...10 years of losing has deadened the senses I guess... How many #1 Overall DE's end up being Bruce Smith? Aikman, Elway, Eli, and Peyton were 1st Overall...Young was the 1st Player taken in the Supplemental Draft...That's 8 of the last 20 SB's right there...Big Ben was #11 Overall in a Top heavy QB Draft...That's 10 of the last 20...Already half...But don't play dumb...Where would Brady, Favre, Warner, and Brees have gone had Teams know what type of NFL QB's they would become? Of coarse not everyone was #1 Overall, nor does every #1 Overall QB pan out...There is a strong possibility The Bills will not even get the chance to take Luck or Mallett...The point is IF they get that chance they ARE going to take it and they should...Both QB's have the...and yes here comes the p-word...but they have the potential to be Franchise QB's for the next 10 years plus...And that is the best, quickest, and most efficient angle to becoming a Championship competitor in the NFL...It's shooting for greatness, not trying to do everything the hard way just cause it's possible... The point is not if a Team can be built around Fitz because of coarse that is possible...It's also possible that I will be the next President of the US...It's possible, I qualify...The true point is IF The Bills have a chance to take Luck or Mallett they should do so...And I think they will...And I'll support them in the decision even if Mallett or Luck fail...Because I know they are trying to be great...Not trying to figure a way to buck the trend and win a SB with a QB the caliber of Ryan Fitzpatrick...All due respect to Fitz who plays hard and is certainly a serviceable guy...I like Fitz and if The Bills choose to build around him I hope he proves me wrong...But I'd rather like him as my back-up... How many QB's drafted high in the first round actually workout? Not very many. It is a big crap shoot. I would rather take a DL or LB in the first 7 rounds. Throw in a RT as well.
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted November 21, 2010 Posted November 21, 2010 Agreed, they are both better than Fitz. But would I cal lthe melite QB's. If Eli's last name wasn't Manning, he'd be considered better than average, but not HOF material. I hope another team feels one of these guys is a can't miss prospect and offers the Bills 3 or 4 early round picks to move up a few pots. The Bills then can draft a QB lower, or get one by other means as has been pointed out. Take the extra picks and fill holes. I really don't think the Jury is still out on Eli and Brees...There both pretty solid and they're both better than Fitz... I actually think you made my point for me...I'm going to assume for the sake of argument The Bills feel Luck or Mallett is a Franchise guy...A QB you build a Team around that can win Championships in the NFL...That's why The Bills HAVE to take one of them if they get the chance...Because QB's like that come around once every few years...And the the potential reward of taking a QB instead of say...a DE from Ohio St...is definitely worth the risk of missing on that QB because the goal is to win a SB not win 7 games...
chasincars Posted November 22, 2010 Author Posted November 22, 2010 That's HILARIOUS! Jim Kelly was great O-Line, or no O-Line...He got sacked a half a million times in the USFL and still put up MVP Numbers... I know it's easy to invoke the name of Kelly as a Bills Fan when you are trying to make a point, but once again I have to say PLEASE stop comparing Fitz and Kelly in any way, shape, or form...There is NO comparison between the two no matter how you spin it...NONE!...You folks who keep bringing back the Kelly years actually have it EXACTLY opposite...If we want to make comparisons to Kelly than The Bills HAVE to Draft a QB high because that's the only possibility they are going to get someone who may someday be comparable to a 1st Ballot Hall Of Fame QB... You're doing a disservice to Kelly's legacy when you make these points IMHO...I know that's not the intention, but I think we've forgotten how good Jim Kelly really was, and how those QB come around once in a Lifetime for a lot of Teams... So Kelly was SOOOO great? then why couldnt he get the job done when it counted in the big one? 4x You must think that he's super man. he was never GREAT he was good and that is all he was, sayin he was great is puttin up there with Young & Montana well he didnt even come close. So, let go of your man crush that you have on him.
ndirish1978 Posted November 22, 2010 Posted November 22, 2010 We could still draft another QB if it was needed but i would rather have Fitz lead us for the next couple of years possibly and develop a QB rather than making any harsh moves . I was actually thinking the same thing today. Though I have to admit that I didn't feel that way in the first half. If Fitz plays as well as he has been playing the past few weeks I think he is more than capable of being our QB in the rebuilding progress and we could focus on drafting some actual talent on Defense.
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