Only Ralph gains from gains being in Toronto

[birdog1960]

The Bills will be playing the majority (minimally 7) of their home games in WNY long after Rogers Stadium and the Rogers Communications empire lies in crumbled ruins. Ralph Wilson assured that when he firmly staked out Toronto and Southern Ontario as a market owned by the Buffalo franchise.

 

 

Ridiculously short-sighted, and exceeded in total ignorance only by WEO's post - but his ignorance is usually hard to beat, do don't get too down on yourself!

 

Did Ralph profit from the Toronto deal? Of course he did. He also profited tremendously from $25,000 he invested in a little something called the American Football League and the Buffalo Bills, way back in 1959. Did that bring any benefit to Buffalo, or was that also just something to line Ralph's pockets?

 

Here's a little scoop for you - businessmen have a right to profit from their investments. What would YOU do if some idiot from Toronto came to you and said, "Here's $80 million - why don't you agree to play regular-season 5 games up here - one each season - for the next five years?"

 

The pure Ralph Wilson genius of it all is that, by making Toronto a 'second home field' for the Bills, Toronto is now effectively established as the Bills home turf and anyone who would even think about trying to establish a rival NFL franchise there would have to deal with the Bills, and likely be faced with a prohibitive annuity/perpetuity for infringing on the Bills' market. (Think Baltimore Colts paying Washington Redskins $150K back in 1950, and imagine the value of that money today, along with the magnitude of value explosion that the NFL has experienced since 60 years ago, then try to come up with an appropriate dollar-amount based on today's value - it would be astronomical!)

 

Ralph Wilson's ownership has been great for Buffalo, despite some rough losing cycles that every team goes through on a regular basis. You and others can continue to ignorantly opine otherwise but - believe me - were it not for Ralph, this team would have been gone from Western New York DECADES ago!!!

i don't see anyone arguing that wilson is a master at making money but can't profit be made while producing and selling a decent product? isn't this what ethical businessmen strive for? i think that if most business owners, including myself, sold an inferior product for years and were unsuccesful at improving it, we would get out of the business and let someone else have a go, not dilute it further by expanding regionally to produce a more inferior product while profitting more.

Edited November 8, 2010 by birdog1960

[Mr. WEO]

The Bills will be playing the majority (minimally 7) of their home games in WNY long after Rogers Stadium and the Rogers Communications empire lies in crumbled ruins. Ralph Wilson assured that when he firmly staked out Toronto and Southern Ontario as a market owned by the Buffalo franchise.

 

 

Ridiculously short-sighted, and exceeded in total ignorance only by WEO's post - but his ignorance is usually hard to beat, do don't get too down on yourself!

 

Did Ralph profit from the Toronto deal? Of course he did. He also profited tremendously from $25,000 he invested in a little something called the American Football League and the Buffalo Bills, way back in 1959. Did that bring any benefit to Buffalo, or was that also just something to line Ralph's pockets?

 

Here's a little scoop for you - businessmen have a right to profit from their investments. What would YOU do if some idiot from Toronto came to you and said, "Here's $80 million - why don't you agree to play regular-season 5 games up here - one each season - for the next five years?"

 

The pure Ralph Wilson genius of it all is that, by making Toronto a 'second home field' for the Bills, Toronto is now effectively established as the Bills home turf and anyone who would even think about trying to establish a rival NFL franchise there would have to deal with the Bills, and likely be faced with a prohibitive annuity/perpetuity for infringing on the Bills' market. (Think Baltimore Colts paying Washington Redskins $150K back in 1950, and imagine the value of that money today, along with the magnitude of value explosion that the NFL has experienced since 60 years ago, then try to come up with an appropriate dollar-amount based on today's value - it would be astronomical!)

 

Ralph Wilson's ownership has been great for Buffalo, despite some rough losing cycles that every team goes through on a regular basis. You and others can continue to ignorantly opine otherwise but - believe me - were it not for Ralph, this team would have been gone from Western New York DECADES ago!!!

No one is denying that Ralph is free to make a nice penny---in fact most here are arguing that he did just that, and nothing else with this deal. That's kind of what we are talking about here, Senator. Somehow this escaped you--as has the fact that Ralph has stayed right here because he makes such a nice return on his "investment" (which has been...essentially nothing, for decades). That's a business deal that he could not replicate in another town. Free money.

 

Anyway, if the only Canadian suitor for an NFL team goes to ruin, cetainly there won't be another moneyed interest in Toronto that would try to succeed where Rogers failed. And, since the deal with the Bills runs out soon, how, exactly, did Ralph establish Toronto as a "second home turf"? It's a partially filled stadium with a few fans partial to the Bills. No doubt the League (and the other owners who suffer from Ralph's cries of financial difficulty) views this debacle as we do--as a simple money grab. The Canadians (no from Toronto, no doubt) who are Bills fans will likely prefer to come to the Ralph, as they always did.

 

The most amusing part to those who read your posts is that you pride yourself on your arguments, despite that they usually are based on few facts or hardly any logic.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Mr. WEO

[Chalkie Gerzowski]

I heartily agree with you. The owner pocketed the Toronto heist money ($78 M) and cut the payroll of the team even more. How does that increase the viability of the team? What I find confounding is that people believe such propaganda. It goes beyond being gullible; it is outright stupid.

 

When Al Davis sold some of the shares of his ownership a couple of years ago he used a large chunk of the proceeds to add to the team payroll. Was the money smartly spent? Probably not. But at least he is trying to compete. Ralph Wilson could care less. He is not even bothering to go through the charade of seriously trying to get better.

 

The standard response to those who bring up the fraudulent nature of the owner's seriousness in competing and his primary interest in mazimizing the bottom line at the expense of being competitive is to be vilified.

 

What is really absurd is not how bad the Bills are and for how long they have been bad as much as there is still a large percentage of people who actually believe that this obnoxious owner has the best interest of the fans and region.

 

[Bills(70)]

These are all nice points to make about Ralph Wilson, Toronto and the marriage of the two.

But what fans here in Buffalo are missing is the larger picture of the organization.

 

Buffalo has lost almost 62% of its overall regional population across 42 years of New York State regulations, high taxes, outsourcing and lack of vision at the policital and business leadership level.

 

This market needs a broader base, Toronto offers that. If the Bills move to Toronto and the team is supported by a city of roughly 4.6 million people as opposed to WNY at roughly 1.6 million, its only a part of the natural course of a business to do so. This isn't rocket science here.

 

No one can blame Ralph nor should they B word about him at all. Without Ralph Wilson, the Buffalo Bills don't exist.

 

Change is inevatible, you want to B word about possibly loosing a sports franchise in the region, go scream at your local and state political leaders.

Across the span of that 42 years they have created this mess, not Ralph.

[The Senator]

You are living in a fantasy world. Of course businessmen have the right to profit from their investments, and if Ralph made this team better, he stil would be profiting, you can't lose money owning a team in the NFL. The equivalent of Ralph would be if Bill Gates, the richest man in the world, just decided to pocket all his money and not improve any of his computer programs/games, would that be a good example of a businessman running his company good? I hardly doubt so. Any proficiently run business reinvests some of their earnings back into the company, to make the company better, Ralph doesn't even dream about doing that. He is a money hungry old coot who has the best interest of his team, organization, the fans and WNY so far down on his list, that it might not as well even be there at all. You can go ahead and keep believing the BS tha that you do about the great Mr. Wilson and his genious plan to keep the Bills in Buffalo, I will stay with the other 99% of Bills fans and believe the obvious truth.

"99%???" :w00t: "OBVIOUS TRUTH?????" :w00t: :w00t:

 

Show me your data, please.

 

(Perhaps you're in agreement with the other 99% of WGR listeners, but most Bills fans are much smarter than you.)

 

 

"Money hungry old coot?" Well, who doesn't like money - or want more of it - but, again, you disply nothing but ignorance with that and your other statements.

 

Wilson gives back plenty - and, as a % of his net-worth, plenty more than you...

 

Ralph Wilson Medical Research Foundation - Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic, Roswell Park Cancer Institute, Wayne State University, Miami Project to Cure Paralysis/University of Miami (go tell Nick Buoniconti or Kevin Everett what a miserly old coot Ralph Wilson is - but wear a face guard when you do)

 

Mary and Ralph C. Wilson, Jr. Counseling Center - hospice care, family grief-counseling, child palliative-care

 

Ralph C. Wilson, Jr. School of Education - St. John Fisher College

 

Ralph C. Wilson, Jr. Jefferson Scholarship - University of Virginia

 

(let me know if you'd like a longer list)

Edited November 8, 2010 by The Senator

[birdog1960]

"99%???" :w00t: "OBVIOUS TRUTH?????" :w00t: :w00t:

 

Show me your data, please.

 

(Perhaps you're in agreement with the other 99% of WGR listeners, but most Bills fans are much smarter than you.)

 

 

"Money hungry old coot?" Well, who doesn't like money - or want more of it - but, again, you disply nothing but ignorance with that and your other statements.

 

Wilson gives back plenty - and, as a % of his net-worth, plenty more than you...

 

Ralph Wilson Medical Research Foundation - Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic, Roswell Park Cancer Institute, Wayne State University, Miami Project to Cure Paralysis/University of Miami (go tell Nick Buoniconti or Kevin Everett what a miserly old coot Ralph Wilson is - but wear a face guard when you do)

 

Mary and Ralph C. Wilson, Jr. Counseling Center - hospice care, family grief-counseling, child palliative-care

 

Ralph C. Wilson, Jr. School of Education - St. John Fisher College

 

Ralph C. Wilson, Jr. Jefferson Scholarship - University of Virginia

 

(let me know if you'd like a longer list)

yeah, i'd like a citation for the percentage of net worth given as charity. i'll bet there are many posters here who surpass him on that score. ever read that little story about the widow's mite?

Edited November 8, 2010 by birdog1960

[The Senator]

yeah, i'd like a percentage of net worth given as charity. i'll bet there are many posters here who surpass him on that score. ever read that little story about the widow's mite?

Not to take anything away from anyone's generosity or charitableness, but I sincerely doubt that.

 

Tell me - other than the Bills NFL franchise, which is not a liquid asset and can only be turned into $$$cash$$$ by selling or borrowing against it - how much do you think RW is worth?

 

(He's worth a lot, I know, but probably way less than you and others surmise or speculate.)

Edited November 8, 2010 by The Senator

[birdog1960]

Not to take anything away from anyone's generosity or charitableness, but I sincerely doubt that.

 

Tell me - other than the Bills NFL franchise - which is not a liquid asset and can only be turned into $$$cash$$$ by selling or borrowing against it - how much do you think RW is worth?

 

(He's worth a lot, I know, but probably way less than you and others surmise or speculate.)

why would you possibly exempt his franchise from his net worth? he could sell it anytime. it is redeemable. with that franchise, i expect his net worth is around $1 billion. many people tithe 15% to their church in charity and have very small net worths. 15% of a billion is a pretty big number ($150 million). is wilson giving this up yearly?

[Mr. WEO]

These are all nice points to make about Ralph Wilson, Toronto and the marriage of the two.

But what fans here in Buffalo are missing is the larger picture of the organization.

 

Buffalo has lost almost 62% of its overall regional population across 42 years of New York State regulations, high taxes, outsourcing and lack of vision at the policital and business leadership level.

 

This market needs a broader base, Toronto offers that. If the Bills move to Toronto and the team is supported by a city of roughly 4.6 million people as opposed to WNY at roughly 1.6 million, its only a part of the natural course of a business to do so. This isn't rocket science here.

 

No one can blame Ralph nor should they B word about him at all. Without Ralph Wilson, the Buffalo Bills don't exist.

 

Change is inevatible, you want to B word about possibly loosing a sports franchise in the region, go scream at your local and state political leaders.

Across the span of that 42 years they have created this mess, not Ralph.

What should we tell the politicians? Bring back Big Steel and Big Auto? Despite the Exodus, the Bills are a highly profitable team, right now. The Bills HAVE a base of Canadian fans. Toronto seems uninterested in this team. This isn't rocket science.

 

If the next owner was inheriting a winning franchise filled with player and coaching talent, he would not have to worry as much about how to fill the stadium down the road to pay his debts. Praising Wilson for bringing the Bills to Buffalo 5 decades ago (and enjoying risk-free monetary return since) is hardly a persuasive justification for this sell-out. Yet it seems to be the only argument these guys can make--no matter what the topic.

[The Senator]

why would you possibly exempt his franchise from his net worth? he could sell it anytime. it is redeemable. with that franchise, i expect his net worth is around $1 billion. many people tithe 15% to their church in charity and have very small net worths. 15% of a billion is a pretty big number ($150 million). is wilson giving this up yearly?

Because it's not a liquid asset that he can 'divvy up' without selling it or borrowing against it, knucklehead!

 

The Buffalo Bills NFL franchise is Ralph Wilson's primary business - how many people sell their business, and their source of income and livelihood - just so they can donate 15% of the sale price to their church?

 

A more accurate measurement - and more rational question - would be, 'How much as a % of INCOME does RW donate?" - but I think you're beyond rational thought on this issue.

 

I gave you a partial list of beneficiaries of Ralph's largess - if you want actual $$$ amounts donated, go do your own homework, lazy ass.

Edited November 8, 2010 by The Senator

[dave mcbride]

The Bills are 0-8 and won't make the playoffs for the eleventh straight season (in a league where 37.5 percent of the teams make it every year).

[birdog1960]

Because it's not a liquid asset that he can 'divvy up' without selling it or borrowing against it, knucklehead!

 

The Buffalo Bills NFL franchise is Ralph Wilson's primary business - how many people sell their business, and their source of income and livelihood - just so they can donate 15% of the sale price to their church?

 

A more accurate measurement - and more rational question - would be, 'How much as a % of INCOME does RW dontate?" - but I think you're beyond rational though on this issue.

 

I gave you a partial list of beneficiaries of Ralph's largess - if you want actual $$$ amounts donated, go do your own homework, lazy ass.

a primary residence is included in any valuation of net worth and requires selling or borrowing against for liquidation. business values are often included as well. you made the statement that wilson gives more based on net worth and then proceed to redefine net worth to suit your purpose. by any standard definition you're just plain wrong as you are about wilson.

[The Senator]

a primary residence is included in any valuation of net worth and requires selling or borrowing against for liquidation. business values are often included as well. you made the statement that wilson gives more based on net worth and then proceed to redefine net worth to suit your purpose. by any standard definition you're just plain wrong as you are about wilson.

You're absolutely correct. I misspoke, my apologies.

 

I meant to say that RW donates more as a percentage of income - not net worth. My bad.

 

Still think he's got most people on TSW - and certainly Billsfreak, the original poster/Wilson-basher - beat in that regard.

[Mr. WEO]

Because it's not a liquid asset that he can 'divvy up' without selling it or borrowing against it, knucklehead!

 

The Buffalo Bills NFL franchise is Ralph Wilson's primary business - how many people sell their business, and their source of income and livelihood - just so they can donate 15% of the sale price to their church?

 

A more accurate measurement - and more rational question - would be, 'How much as a % of INCOME does RW donate?" - but I think you're beyond rational thought on this issue.

 

I gave you a partial list of beneficiaries of Ralph's largess - if you want actual $$$ amounts donated, go do your own homework, lazy ass.

You are not so cleverly ignoring the tens of millions in profit his "company" nets him.

[All_Pro_Bills]

Fortunately, or not, these Toronto games are scheduled at a time when putting the team at a competitive disadvantage by trading home field advantage for revenue doesn't really matter. If it was a case of the team missing the playoff's by 1 game lost in Toronto I might get a little more excited about it.

 

I think the big loser here are Rogers, the Bills football team, and Bills fans that lose one home game. It seems highly unlikely the sponsor is recouping their investment here. If their objective it to bring the NFL to Toronto full time I can't see how this series is helping that cause. While you lose a lot of the atmosphere of a 'live' game watching on TV it just seems the place is deader than a morgue.

 

Whether or not these games 'help' keep the team in WNY is TBD but at this point it doesn't appear to be generating a lot of interest in the team north of the US border. Much of that I suspect has to do with 0-8. How can you blame them?

 

That all said, I find it impossible to disagree with posters that have expressed their frustration with ownerships lack of commitment to winning and there does not appear to be any plan in place to plow the proceeds from this series into the team to improve the product. Ownership seems content to squeeze as much positive cash flow out of the franchise as possible with the least amount of investment sprinkled in with a little PR.

 

Bottom line: Winning is not a priority.

[NewHampshireBillsFan]

The sad thing for RW and for all of us is that RW could have with one SB win between 2000 and 2010, established himself for all time as an owner who determined to overcome all his bad and selfish decisions over the years to finally win the big one for the beloved city of Buffalo. I remember what one fan here in the Boston area said on a radio talk show after NE won its first SB. He said it erased 40 years of frustration that he had had as a Patsie* fan. How much more would we have felt a sense of relief if the Bills had finally won a SB during this decade.

 

Instead, RW established himself as the least successful long term ON THE FIELD owner in the history of pro sports, never winning one world championship in the soon to be 50 super bowls that have been played. I tried to defend RW for many years but the cumulative effect of his bad decisions and cheapness (especially with GMs and coaches) finally became too obvious to ignore. The situation is so bad now that I think the league is getting a little nervous about the Bills basically operating below the standards of an NFL franchise. And RW is not even pretending any more to give a coherent explanation of his future plans to improve the team, just that we need a high draft pick QB.

[Bills(70)]

What should we tell the politicians? Bring back Big Steel and Big Auto? Despite the Exodus, the Bills are a highly profitable team, right now. The Bills HAVE a base of Canadian fans. Toronto seems uninterested in this team. This isn't rocket science.

 

If the next owner was inheriting a winning franchise filled with player and coaching talent, he would not have to worry as much about how to fill the stadium down the road to pay his debts. Praising Wilson for bringing the Bills to Buffalo 5 decades ago (and enjoying risk-free monetary return since) is hardly a persuasive justification for this sell-out. Yet it seems to be the only argument these guys can make--no matter what the topic.

Well, you can start by telling state elected officials to bring 1 billion dollars to the table for a domed stadium in downtown Buffalo. They brought a combined 2.4 billion for both the Jets and Yankees new stadiums. And how about the additional 230 million for the Mets.

 

You may state that the Bills have a Canadian fan base, but the fact remains any business, yes even professional sports, look to increase their individual bottom lines by franchises outside of the targeted market area. Toronto makes complete sense for this given its large populas and geographical location to the origins of the team.

 

As for industry, lets start with cheap power that is created locally combined with a massive reduction in state, county and local workforces and payscales (specifically, medical and pension plans) that would allow reductions in taxes making the area more attractive for both business and residential sectors to grow instead of contracting.

[Doc]

Ralph Wilson: The only owner in the NFL that will sell competitive advantage in actual regular season games for cash money.

Competitive advantage? LOL! Like at Pats games, where the majority of the crowd is pro-Pats, as loads of Bills fans sell their tickets to make a profit?

[JohnC]

Well, you can start by telling state elected officials to bring 1 billion dollars to the table for a domed stadium in downtown Buffalo. They brought a combined 2.4 billion for both the Jets and Yankees new stadiums. And how about the additional 230 million for the Mets.

 

You are patently incorrect. New Jersey did not pay for the stadium. The two franchises (Giants and Jets) borrowed from the league stadium fund to get the stadium built. Ralph Wilson and maybe one other owner voted against the two franchises combining their fund allotment. I'm not saying that Jersey didn't make some infrastructure contribution but the stadium these two teams share was payed by their respective franchises.

 

With respect to Yankee stadium again you are wrong. Yankee stadium was payed for by Steinbrenner. Again, I'm not suggesting that there wasn't some form of public contribution for infrastructure upgrade but the stadium was payed for by the Yankee franchise.

Edited November 8, 2010 by JohnC

[NaPolian8693]

Yes, it is blatantly obvious if you stop and look at things that Wilson doesn't care about winning, but just wants money.

 

He would have the team play all 16 games on the road if they paid him enough.

 

The only reason he cares about winning is that the hope of winning helps sell tickets.

 

A lot of fans realize this, but many are so blinded by their unconditional, doglike love that they don't even consider this. Many will say these obvious statements are "trolling" even, they are so desperate to avoid the truth.