Mickey Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Canada's highest court has approved the expansion of marriage to include gay couples by the government Canadian Ruling I wonder what effect, if any, that might have here? It would certainly cause problems for Canadian emigres. An example of the type of practical problems that might cause: A married Canadian gay couple travels to the US and during the trip, one of them dies. Under the laws of most American states, only the closest kin, ie a spouse, would have the right to claim the body, authorize its transport, get a certified copy of an autopsy etc., etc. If the deceased was estranged from his family, not unlikely given the way some families are torn over a memebers homosexuality, there would be all sorts of problems and conflicts caused by America's refusal to recognize as valid here a marriage that is valid where it was made. Forget the moral arguments here about your respective views on homosexuality and gay marriage. This is strictly a question of the practical legal matters that can be put in disarray by our refusal to recognize as valid a marriage valid in Canada. Just because it is valid in Canada doesn't mean that we should recognize it here. After all, if Canada allowed 10 year olds to marry, would we be compelled to recognize that marriage as a legal one while they are here on US soil? Of course, that might not be a valid comparison since the numbers of 10 year old marriages to have to worry about would likely be negligble but the numbers of gay marriages could be potentially huge. From a practical matter, it would be easy to treat as a nullity a handful of marriages while treating as a nullity the marriages of thousands and thousands would be far more difficult. I feel the cool breeze of possible compromise. I think maybe we would be willing to recognize as valid here a marriage made in Canada between two gay Canadian citizens but be unwilling to recognize as valid here a marriage made in Canada between two gay US citizens. Basically it mollifies Canadians who would want their married people to still be married when they crossed the border and at the same time keeps gay Americans from storming the borders and banquet halls of our northern neighbor in a flurry of gay wedding mania. Random thought: Businesses have long recognized that gay men and lesbian women are a significant group when it comes to purchasing power. You see plenty of advertising subtley targeting that demographic. It has something to do with disposable income and all that marketing stuff. The business community has supported Bush in impressive numbers. At some point the pursuit of gay dollars and opposition to gay friendly legislation, be it out and out marriage (no pun intended) or some sort of civil union thing, are going to collide. In a battle between money versus real or pretended moral outrage, I'd bet on the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheRocks Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 moves ahead? i would say they just fell behind. (no pun intended.) i strictly mean in a moral sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Tate Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 ... I think maybe we would be willing to recognize as valid here a marriage made in Canada between two gay Canadian citizens but be unwilling to recognize as valid here a marriage made in Canada between two gay US citizens. ... The business community has supported Bush in impressive numbers. At some point the pursuit of gay dollars and opposition to gay friendly legislation, be it out and out marriage (no pun intended) or some sort of civil union thing, are going to collide. In a battle between money versus real or pretended moral outrage, I'd bet on the money. 153327[/snapback] I doubt the scenarios you brought up are enough of a catalyst to cause the compromise for foreign gay marriages you outline, but it could happen. I just don't think people who work at hospitals, morgues, etc are going to be that hung up on it. I could be wrong. Maybe it would be a big issue. For those opposed to gay marriage, it does make the argument for legislatively defining marriage as being between a man and a woman. You're right, every couple in the US who wants to get married will head to Canada. (If anyone here is a travel agent, not a bad idea to pursue that.) The business community supports all politicians in impressive numbers, often two opposing parties at the same time. But voters are, at least so far, against gay marriage. I think a compromise will be made at some time, but I don't think businesses are going to lead the charge. Many corporations extend their health plans to include a gay, uh, companion? - that's their compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Yeah, I can't wait to change our laws for the 5 people annually this might have an affect on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted December 9, 2004 Author Share Posted December 9, 2004 I doubt the scenarios you brought up are enough of a catalyst to cause the compromise for foreign gay marriages you outline, but it could happen. I just don't think people who work at hospitals, morgues, etc are going to be that hung up on it. I could be wrong. Maybe it would be a big issue. For those opposed to gay marriage, it does make the argument for legislatively defining marriage as being between a man and a woman. You're right, every couple in the US who wants to get married will head to Canada. (If anyone here is a travel agent, not a bad idea to pursue that.) The business community supports all politicians in impressive numbers, often two opposing parties at the same time. But voters are, at least so far, against gay marriage. I think a compromise will be made at some time, but I don't think businesses are going to lead the charge. Many corporations extend their health plans to include a gay, uh, companion? - that's their compromise. 153412[/snapback] That was just one example of the difficulties. Plenty of married Canadians live and work in the US. My next door neighbors growing up in CNY were Canadians but have lived here since 1965. I don't think it is a stretch to imagine gay Canadian couples living in the US running into all sorts of problems because they aren't "married" under US law. Reciprocity is an old and time honored legal concept that usually is used to resolve these kinds of potentially impossible conflicts. For example, I don't have to take a bar exam to be admitted in anyother state as long as NY would do the same for a lawyer from that other state. That is reciprocity. It is the grease that keeps the machine of jurisdictional commerce and intercourse (no pun intended, really) from grinding to a halt. Most nations have a law that recognizes the validity of marriages performed in other nations, if they are valid there, they are valid here. It is simple another version of reciprocity. If you recognize my citizens, I'll recognize yours. By exempting gay marriage, justified or not, from that comity, we run the risk of retaliation. Canada could say that it will not recognize as valid any marriage performed in a country that won't recognize the legitimacy of the marriages of its citizens. Again, I don't want to bother people with my moral take on the issue anymore than I want to be beat over the head with theirs. It is the practical repercussion of policy in this area that I am interested in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachChuckDickerson Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Anybody care to tell me what the big deal is about gay people getting married? Are homophobs afraid their baby boy will bring home a son in law? I just don't get it. If two people are in love and are of age, more power to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobody Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 All the Canadian ruling will do is make more people in the US try to get their states to pass laws against the practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted December 9, 2004 Author Share Posted December 9, 2004 Yeah, I can't wait to change our laws for the 5 people annually this might have an affect on. 153533[/snapback] Clearly you haven't been to Syracuse lately, we are knee deep in Canadians. I have a friend I always give grief to because she is Canadaian, you know, demanding to see her green card and such. In doing some family history research I found out that my Great Great Grandfather emigrated from Scotland to Canada in 1820 and that my Grandfather, despite having been born in the US in 1900 served in the CEF, Cavalry, Fort Garry Horse, in WWI at the age of 16. It turned out I had some Canadian roots. I was mortified. Justifiably, my friend was thrilled to learn of my shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted December 9, 2004 Author Share Posted December 9, 2004 All the Canadian ruling will do is make more people in the US try to get their states to pass laws against the practice. 153640[/snapback] Backlash city. Nobody is for anything anymore, they are just against something or other. Against Bush, against gay marriage, against Bledsoe. It never ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Anybody care to tell me what the big deal is about gay people getting married? Are homophobs afraid their baby boy will bring home a son in law? I just don't get it. If two people are in love and are of age, more power to them. 153617[/snapback] I don't see the big deal, either, CoachCD. Here in Massachusetts, over 3000 gay marriages have taken place since it became legal on May 17. That is one third of all marriages that have taken place in this state. It's just not that big of an issue here anymore. But it will be when they start to move to other states. On the topic of a marketing demographic, if the one in every three marriages pace is sustainable, that will become a very powerful economic target group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Tate Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Canada could say that it will not recognize as valid any marriage performed in a country that won't recognize the legitimacy of the marriages of its citizens. 153566[/snapback] They could, in a rhetorical, never going to happen sort of way. I guess I fail to see how large an issue this is. I just don't know that many gay married canadiens. Hey, another way to make money - sell married couples weekend romantic trips to Quebec where they won't be married! You naughty kids! Fall in love all over again! Are the travel agents out there getting all this? I gotta start writing this stuff down! Now what was that thing about feeding mayonaise to tuna? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobody Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Hey, another way to make money - sell married couples weekend romantic trips to Quebec where they won't be married! You naughty kids! I thought that's why we have Las Vegas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Clearly you haven't been to Syracuse lately, we are knee deep in Canadians. I have a friend I always give grief to because she is Canadaian, you know, demanding to see her green card and such. In doing some family history research I found out that my Great Great Grandfather emigrated from Scotland to Canada in 1820 and that my Grandfather, despite having been born in the US in 1900 served in the CEF, Cavalry, Fort Garry Horse, in WWI at the age of 16. It turned out I had some Canadian roots. I was mortified. Justifiably, my friend was thrilled to learn of my shame. 153667[/snapback] I'm not talking about how many of them visit. I'm talking about the scenario you proposed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted December 9, 2004 Author Share Posted December 9, 2004 I'm not talking about how many of them visit. I'm talking about the scenario you proposed. 153739[/snapback] Which scenario, the Canadian emigres living and working in the US like my neighbors of yore or the day trippers who get creamed by a semi? I believe there are around a million Canadians more or less living in the United States which probably doesn't include those with dual citizenship. Even if ony 3% were gay, thats still a lot. What do we do with a gay couple where one is an American citizen and the other is a Canadian and they get married in Canada and then move to Toledo? No matter how rare an event is, you have to have some procedure to address the situation. You can't just tell the hospital official looking for someone to release the body to that he just has to make up a rule on the spot because we figured it was such a long shot it would never happen. I have file cabinets stuffed to the gills with things that people thought would never, ever happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 That was just one example of the difficulties. Plenty of married Canadians live and work in the US. 153566[/snapback] That's one thing. The other is that Canadians are free to work in the US and take the earnings back home. It is very, very difficult for a US citizen to work in Canada. Canada always talks a good game, but they are in the final analysis, a selfish nation that likes to take but almost never gives. You would be amazed at the extortion that Canada extracts from US companies for the priveledge of selling products there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 I have file cabinets stuffed to the gills with things that people thought would never, ever happen. 153890[/snapback] I'm sure you do. But the government isn't supposed to answer every question. If they want the rights of marriage, they should stay in Canada. Nobody ever said life was fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachChuckDickerson Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 That's one thing. The other is that Canadians are free to work in the US and take the earnings back home. It is very, very difficult for a US citizen to work in Canada. Canada always talks a good game, but they are in the final analysis, a selfish nation that likes to take but almost never gives. You would be amazed at the extortion that Canada extracts from US companies for the priveledge of selling products there... 153904[/snapback] Regulating the cost of prescription drugs to keep things affordable. Those commie bastards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Canada's highest court has approved the expansion of marriage to include gay couples by the government Canadian Ruling I wonder what effect, if any, that might have here? It would certainly cause problems for Canadian emigres. An example of the type of practical problems that might cause: A married Canadian gay couple travels to the US and during the trip, one of them dies. Under the laws of most American states, only the closest kin, ie a spouse, would have the right to claim the body, authorize its transport, get a certified copy of an autopsy etc., etc. If the deceased was estranged from his family, not unlikely given the way some families are torn over a memebers homosexuality, there would be all sorts of problems and conflicts caused by America's refusal to recognize as valid here a marriage that is valid where it was made. Forget the moral arguments here about your respective views on homosexuality and gay marriage. This is strictly a question of the practical legal matters that can be put in disarray by our refusal to recognize as valid a marriage valid in Canada. Just because it is valid in Canada doesn't mean that we should recognize it here. After all, if Canada allowed 10 year olds to marry, would we be compelled to recognize that marriage as a legal one while they are here on US soil? Of course, that might not be a valid comparison since the numbers of 10 year old marriages to have to worry about would likely be negligble but the numbers of gay marriages could be potentially huge. From a practical matter, it would be easy to treat as a nullity a handful of marriages while treating as a nullity the marriages of thousands and thousands would be far more difficult. I feel the cool breeze of possible compromise. I think maybe we would be willing to recognize as valid here a marriage made in Canada between two gay Canadian citizens but be unwilling to recognize as valid here a marriage made in Canada between two gay US citizens. Basically it mollifies Canadians who would want their married people to still be married when they crossed the border and at the same time keeps gay Americans from storming the borders and banquet halls of our northern neighbor in a flurry of gay wedding mania. Random thought: Businesses have long recognized that gay men and lesbian women are a significant group when it comes to purchasing power. You see plenty of advertising subtley targeting that demographic. It has something to do with disposable income and all that marketing stuff. The business community has supported Bush in impressive numbers. At some point the pursuit of gay dollars and opposition to gay friendly legislation, be it out and out marriage (no pun intended) or some sort of civil union thing, are going to collide. In a battle between money versus real or pretended moral outrage, I'd bet on the money. 153327[/snapback] Throw me a bone here. I can't answer the legal ramifications of such, for the same reason I can't for a marriage in Vermont that's illegal in Alabama: I haven't the slightest idea what the case law is. You're the lawyer...tell us, what are the precedents concerning reciprocity in recogniation of civil law, both intra- and internationally. I'm sure there must be SOME (e.g. different states have different requirements for drivers' licenses...how is it that a 14 year old licensed in one state is still legally entitled to drive in another state where the legal limit for a license is 17? There's got to be some precedent on the subject, even if only loosely guiding.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Regulating the cost of prescription drugs to keep things affordable. Those commie bastards. 154072[/snapback] And conveniently not paying one thin Loonie for the cost of R&D and efficacy trials. Feel free to ask me about manufacturing, and why it is that if you want to sell Gordon a car, Gordan demands that you make auto componetry in his back yard. North American UN-Free Trade Act. Myself, I would enact a pharmeuctical EXPORT Tax... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich in Ohio Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 Canada's highest court has approved the expansion of marriage to include gay couples by the government Canadian Ruling I wonder what effect, if any, that might have here? It would certainly cause problems for Canadian emigres. An example of the type of practical problems that might cause: A married Canadian gay couple travels to the US and during the trip, one of them dies. Under the laws of most American states, only the closest kin, ie a spouse, would have the right to claim the body, authorize its transport, get a certified copy of an autopsy etc., etc. If the deceased was estranged from his family, not unlikely given the way some families are torn over a memebers homosexuality, there would be all sorts of problems and conflicts caused by America's refusal to recognize as valid here a marriage that is valid where it was made. Forget the moral arguments here about your respective views on homosexuality and gay marriage. This is strictly a question of the practical legal matters that can be put in disarray by our refusal to recognize as valid a marriage valid in Canada. Just because it is valid in Canada doesn't mean that we should recognize it here. After all, if Canada allowed 10 year olds to marry, would we be compelled to recognize that marriage as a legal one while they are here on US soil? Of course, that might not be a valid comparison since the numbers of 10 year old marriages to have to worry about would likely be negligble but the numbers of gay marriages could be potentially huge. From a practical matter, it would be easy to treat as a nullity a handful of marriages while treating as a nullity the marriages of thousands and thousands would be far more difficult. I feel the cool breeze of possible compromise. I think maybe we would be willing to recognize as valid here a marriage made in Canada between two gay Canadian citizens but be unwilling to recognize as valid here a marriage made in Canada between two gay US citizens. Basically it mollifies Canadians who would want their married people to still be married when they crossed the border and at the same time keeps gay Americans from storming the borders and banquet halls of our northern neighbor in a flurry of gay wedding mania. Random thought: Businesses have long recognized that gay men and lesbian women are a significant group when it comes to purchasing power. You see plenty of advertising subtley targeting that demographic. It has something to do with disposable income and all that marketing stuff. The business community has supported Bush in impressive numbers. At some point the pursuit of gay dollars and opposition to gay friendly legislation, be it out and out marriage (no pun intended) or some sort of civil union thing, are going to collide. In a battle between money versus real or pretended moral outrage, I'd bet on the money. 153327[/snapback] Moved Ahead?????? are you kidding me. it won't be long now until candians are free to marry chickens, rats, sheep, and monkeys. Or perhaps 3 or four people...after all the definition of marriage seems to be a fluid thing as well. And when exactly was the last time the the United States of America followed in canadas footsteps?? Get real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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