Not same D as last year - can we put this to rest?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I said this myself: "it's the same D as last year, why are they so much worse this year?"

Then I looked under the hood.

 

I may have some of this wrong due to injuries/midseason changes - esp moving LB around recently and not clear how Bills using WLB and JLB on depth - feel free to correct

Here is the starting DL:

________2010_____________2009

DE______Stroud___________Kelsay

DT______Williams_________Stroud

DT_______________________Williams

DE______Edwards__________Schobel

 

OLB_____Kelsay___________Ellison/Scott

ILB_____Davis____________Pozluszny

ILB_____?Torbor

OLB_____?Pozluszny_______Mitchell

 

What I see here is:

- 3 of 7 linemen are completely different

- 3 of the 4 remaining line starters are playing different positions

 

I keep reading others say "it's the same players".

I say the defensive line is significantly different than last year

Even if you disagree on the LB assignments - 3 of 7 different players and 2 of 4 returnees playing different positions

 

I wasn't a "hater", but I didn't give Schobel enough credit.

I'm thinking Mitchell was a better player than credited, too - Torbor is not an upgrade.

As a SLB, Kelsay looks kinda Green (and I don't mean color)

Edited October 31, 2010 by Hopeful

[shoretalk]

I said this myself: "it's the same D as last year, why are they so much worse this year?"

Then I looked under the hood.

 

I may have some of this wrong due to injuries/midseason changes - esp moving LB around recently and not clear how Bills using WLB and JLB on depth - feel free to correct

Here is the starting DL:

________2010_____________2009

DE______Stroud___________Kelsay

DT______Williams_________Stroud

DT_______________________Williams

DE______Edwards__________Schobel

 

OLB_____Kelsay___________Ellison/Scott

ILB_____Davis____________Pozluszny

ILB_____?Torbor

OLB_____?Pozluszny_______Mitchell

 

What I see here is:

- 3 of 7 linemen are completely different

- 3 of the 4 remaining line starters are playing different positions

 

I keep reading others say "it's the same players".

I say the defensive line is significantly different than last year

Even if you disagree on the LB assignments - 3 of 7 different players and 2 of 4 returnees playing different positions

 

I wasn't a "hater", but I didn't give Schobel enough credit.

I'm thinking Mitchell was a better player than credited, too - Torbor is not an upgrade.

As a SLB, Kelsay looks kinda Green (and I don't mean color)

 

 

And this board had so many Ellison haters as well as Schobel doubters.

 

One still has to wonder about the lack of defensive motivation.

 

Oh well GO BILLS!!

[Mr. WEO]

I said this myself: "it's the same D as last year, why are they so much worse this year?"

Then I looked under the hood.

 

I may have some of this wrong due to injuries/midseason changes - esp moving LB around recently and not clear how Bills using WLB and JLB on depth - feel free to correct

Here is the starting DL:

________2010_____________2009

DE______Stroud___________Kelsay

DT______Williams_________Stroud

DT_______________________Williams

DE______Edwards__________Schobel

 

OLB_____Kelsay___________Ellison/Scott

ILB_____Davis____________Pozluszny

ILB_____?Torbor

OLB_____?Pozluszny_______Mitchell

 

What I see here is:

- 3 of 7 linemen are completely different

- 3 of the 4 remaining line starters are playing different positions

 

I keep reading others say "it's the same players".

I say the defensive line is significantly different than last year

Even if you disagree on the LB assignments - 3 of 7 different players and 2 of 4 returnees playing different positions

 

I wasn't a "hater", but I didn't give Schobel enough credit.

I'm thinking Mitchell was a better player than credited, too - Torbor is not an upgrade.

As a SLB, Kelsay looks kinda Green (and I don't mean color)

Schobel is the only significant difference. Mitchell is no big loss. Still have Stroud, Kelsay, Williams, Poz---and no Ellison (a huge plus). Davis was supposed to be an upgrade. Pointing out that players are now in "different positions" is meaningless. The defensive failure is mostly on the coaching staff and this is where they have chosen to line these guys up. This D last year was not one player away (Schobel) from being the worst in the League.

 

I'm calling BS on this.

[Bob in STL]

I said this myself: "it's the same D as last year, why are they so much worse this year?"

Then I looked under the hood.

 

I may have some of this wrong due to injuries/midseason changes - esp moving LB around recently and not clear how Bills using WLB and JLB on depth - feel free to correct

Here is the starting DL:

________2010_____________2009

DE______Stroud___________Kelsay

DT______Williams_________Stroud

DT_______________________Williams

DE______Edwards__________Schobel

 

OLB_____Kelsay___________Ellison/Scott

ILB_____Davis____________Pozluszny

ILB_____?Torbor

OLB_____?Pozluszny_______Mitchell

 

What I see here is:

- 3 of 7 linemen are completely different

- 3 of the 4 remaining line starters are playing different positions

 

I keep reading others say "it's the same players".

I say the defensive line is significantly different than last year

Even if you disagree on the LB assignments - 3 of 7 different players and 2 of 4 returnees playing different positions

 

I wasn't a "hater", but I didn't give Schobel enough credit.

I'm thinking Mitchell was a better player than credited, too - Torbor is not an upgrade.

As a SLB, Kelsay looks kinda Green (and I don't mean color)

 

 

Lets keep this simple.

 

1. They lost their best player - Schobel

2. The coaching is much worse - Fewell vs. Edwards

3. Mostly the same personnel as last year and that defense was also last in rushing yards alowed

4 Marginal help from free agents (Edwards and Davis); even less help from the draft (Troup, Carrington, Moats, Batten)

5. Players playing out of position - Kelsey, Williams, Stroud, Ellis (now cut), Mitchell (now released)

6. No production from #1 picks - McCargo and Maybin

7. No pressure on the QB - (see 1 though 6 above)

[Doc]

Lets keep this simple.

 

1. They lost their best player - Schobel

2. The coaching is much worse - Fewell vs. Edwards

3. Mostly the same personnel as last year and that defense was also last in rushing yards alowed

4 Marginal help from free agents (Edwards and Davis); even less help from the draft (Troup, Carrington, Moats, Batten)

5. Players playing out of position - Kelsey, Williams, Stroud, Ellis (now cut), Mitchell (now released)

6. No production from #1 picks - McCargo and Maybin

7. No pressure on the QB - (see 1 though 6 above)

I agree with all but that with #4, those FA's were signed to play the 3-4. Edwards was a bad DC hire and it might be a good idea to can him and promote an assistant.

[JohnC]

I said this myself: "it's the same D as last year, why are they so much worse this year?"

Then I looked under the hood.

 

I may have some of this wrong due to injuries/midseason changes - esp moving LB around recently and not clear how Bills using WLB and JLB on depth - feel free to correct

Here is the starting DL:

________2010_____________2009

DE______Stroud___________Kelsay

DT______Williams_________Stroud

DT_______________________Williams

DE______Edwards__________Schobel

 

OLB_____Kelsay___________Ellison/Scott

ILB_____Davis____________Pozluszny

ILB_____?Torbor

OLB_____?Pozluszny_______Mitchell

 

What I see here is:

- 3 of 7 linemen are completely different

- 3 of the 4 remaining line starters are playing different positions

 

I keep reading others say "it's the same players".

I say the defensive line is significantly different than last year

Even if you disagree on the LB assignments - 3 of 7 different players and 2 of 4 returnees playing different positions

 

I wasn't a "hater", but I didn't give Schobel enough credit.

I'm thinking Mitchell was a better player than credited, too - Torbor is not an upgrade.

As a SLB, Kelsay looks kinda Green (and I don't mean color)

 

Whether you favor the 2009 group or the 2010 there really is little difference from a talent standpoint. Talentwise, both groups are inadequate. From a performance standpoint both groups are ineffective.

 

The solution to this pushover defense is to change the players. Over the next two years or so there will be a major personnel turnover. The Bills being grossly bad on defense has little to do with the scheme they are playing and more to do with a paucity of talent.

 

Our LBing corps is indisputably the worst in the league. The DL certainly ranks near the bottom. If one has the intestinal fortitude to watch the games all the way through it is apparent that the defense is physically weak compared to the opposition.

 

When you watch other teams play you usually see the qbs under some pressure. That doesn't happen when the Bills are on defense. How many times in a game do you see an opposing back running through a gaping hole big enough for a tractor trailer to go through? That doesn't happen when other teams play.

 

The Bills' defense is simply overmatched. The Jets game was an outright embarrassment. Everyone knew that the Jets were going to run the ball and our defense couldn't do anything to stop it. The opposing players were laughing all through the game.

 

A lack of effort or bad strategy has little to do with how bad our defense is. Our players are simply not good enough.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Schobel is the only significant difference. <...> This D last year was not one player away (Schobel) from being the worst in the League.

<...>

I'm calling BS on this.

 

I'm cool with fingering the coaching/FO - they are the ones who changed the roles, let some players go, and chose the players to bring in, after all.

That would explain WHY the defense is different. But the fact remains, it's different. Not the same players, same roles, suddenly losing their chops.

 

Isn't it a contradiction to point out that last year's D was "not just one player away from worst in the league", add the fact that 3 of 7 DL differ,

but still say "Schobel is the only significant difference"?

 

I don't think it's "meaningless" to point out 2-3 players on D are in different positions with different roles.

I think it's telling that a frustrated Stroud was observed punching the Gatorade cooler and yelling "does anyone here know what they're supposed to be doing?"

We'll have to "agree to disagree" on that one.

[FightClub]

I agree with all but that with #4, those FA's were signed to play the 3-4. Edwards was a bad DC hire and it might be a good idea to can him and promote an assistant.

 

My fear about Edwards is that he has agreed to take the bullet this year so the defense does just enough to lose games and they can get another high pick to waste. In exchange they promise they won't fire him in the off season. So we waste another year playing games with this team instead of selling out to win every opportunity we get. We will end up with the first pick next year but continued leadership from a DC that may well be in over his head.

 

Think about it, they can't have the offense suck or everyone will call for Gailey himself's head. So they deflect it by having the defense out of position throughout the game. If everyone is pissed at Edwards that causes less of a crisis.

 

The personnel is bad, but not so bad as to be allowing 35 points game in and game out. Coaching has an absolute ton to do with it and I am just terrified some of it is intentional for draft positioning.

[Bob in STL]

I agree with all but that with #4, those FA's were signed to play the 3-4. Edwards was a bad DC hire and it might be a good idea to can him and promote an assistant.

 

 

Yes, they were signed to play the 3-4 and their help has been marginal so far. The Bills scrapped the 3-4.

 

As a DC, Edwards is a rookie and he need to do doing more to help his players get to the QB. Canning him and promoting an assistant is not the answer. If they do replace him, lets bring in an experienced DC with a track record of sucess.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Lets keep this simple.

 

1. They lost their best player - Schobel Can't argue. I wasn't a big fan, now I feel I underrated him

2. The coaching is much worse - Fewell vs. Edwards Agree. Think Edwards is way over his head

3. Mostly the same personnel as last year and that defense was also last in rushing yards alowed only point I disagree - 3 of 7 are different, fact Jack. Last year's run defense was bad, this year's run defense is -- worse than bad

4 Marginal help from free agents (Edwards and Davis); even less help from the draft (Troup, Carrington, Moats, Batten) I think Edwards and Davis have been solid. It's Torbor and Ayodele who trouble me from the talent evaluation POV.

5. Players playing out of position - Kelsey, Williams, Stroud, Ellis (now cut), Mitchell (now released) This seems to be a point of contention. I'd love to hear what former football players say about the difference here. It seems like a significant factor to me. Like you've been a knight on the chessboard, now you need to figure out how to be an effective bishop, and you can't learn it with your head, it has to get down to the level of gut, automatic reaction.

6. No production from #1 picks - McCargo and Maybin Emphatically must agree

7. No pressure on the QB - (see 1 though 6 above)

[nucci]

The D sucked last year and it sucks this year. No difference.

[sweatpantsjoe]

When John Fox, Marvin Lewis or Mike Singletary are available, one of them will come in and fix this mess. Or I can hope....

[bluecarter]

Last year Buffalo was a 4-3 bend but don't break system. They had marginal pressure, but the meat an potatoes was for the other team to mess up. They were a great defense in the Red zone as well, using the shorter field to their advantage. Another main point is our defense is under sized for the 3-4, before Buffalo was fast and ran all over the field making up for their lack of size issue. I'd say if all the staff is smart next draft (free agency) and they stay away from the offense and focus on building up the 3-4 Line, and the Linebacker Corps., they should be vastly improved.

 

Honestly I'm a big fan of the 3-4. We ran it in the 90's, and it has severed buffalo well. They just need to become stout on defending the run. Last week was a great game to grow from. The team held Ray Rice, and Willis to 136 yards. I considered that to be a great stat, and I know when the run defense is brought up to a top of the NFL all the rest of the defense will come along and feed off of that fact. Also I don't think Edwards is a bad Defense coach. I think this is a tall order for someone to complete and win at the same time.

 

My biggest complaint is why were we giving Kelsay contract extensions? I think Buffalo has always treated him so well for poor production.

 

Also this is just all apart of bottoming out. NO ONE LIKES IT!

[jr1]

George Edwards is the only person in the world that could make me miss the Tampa 2

[BillsVet]

Biggest difference? The pass rush by a mile. The 34 outside backers have not been able to replace the rush provided by Schobel in a 43. As a result of lacking pass-rush, the team has allowed 14 passing TD's in 6 games.

 

And I haven't even started with the rush defense, allowing 174 ypg.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Yes, they were signed to play the 3-4 and their help has been marginal so far. The Bills scrapped the 3-4.

 

As a DC, Edwards is a rookie and he need to do doing more to help his players get to the QB. Canning him and promoting an assistant is not the answer. If they do replace him, lets bring in an experienced DC with a track record of sucess.

Edwards is not exactly a "rookie" DC. http://www.browsebiography.com/bio-george_edwards.html

 

However, I totally agree that firing him to promote the next "Alex Van Pelt" type to DC would be moronic. How many times do some people have to see the promote from within philosophy blow up anyway?