Are there any "hidden gems" on this defense???

[BillsVet]

Hard to talk about hidden gems when most of the candidates haven't taken the field or play sparingly. Moats, Batten, Carrington, and Troup aren't seeing enough PT to even know if they'll be productive. It's not their fault, but I'd like to see these guys play significant time before anointing them hidden gems because personnel genius Buddy Nix drafted them.

 

That said, Kyle Williams is the only defender picked beyond Round 3 who became a decent player since the last rebuilding commenced in 2006.

Edited October 30, 2010 by BillsVet

[PDaDdy]

Kyle Williams is fantastic. If you can't recognize that you're either clueless or a hater.

 

If Williams was fantastic the defense would be better as a whole stopping the run. I like Kyle Williams. I think he was a nice surprise as a D-lineman. A late round pick that made it as a starter. I am neither a hater or clueless. One thing you will notice about defensive schemes and in particular the great defenses in the league. If you want a GREAT cover 2 defense you need a warren sap or two. If you want GREAT 3 - 4 you need a great NT that can anchor your line.

 

Be honest. Although I like Kyle Williams can he really be mentioned in the same sentence as Kris Jenkins, Vince Wilfork and Jason Fergesun(retired/resigned)??? Seriously! That is only our division. Consider the likes of a Haloti Ngata etc. Williams isn't anywhere near the same level as those guys. He is a lunch pail type player that comes to work every week and does a pretty decent job. He is NOT a star, he is NOT an anchor around which the d-line is built.

 

Good find? Sure. Little golden nugget? Maybe. Hidden gem? I don't agree.

Edited October 30, 2010 by PDaDdy

[sllib olaffub]

This is a subject I've thought about, as well.

I think if we had a different coordinator we'd see different production out of these guys, and I think if the spots were entirely open to best talent and most capable of real production based on game day work, I think we'd see a few changes in the lineup - G. Wilson, for instance, at times looked much better than D. Whitner.

 

Anyway, I'm hoping our secondary is still pretty good when given a good pass rush. I think we'll find out next year because I'm guessing they address the linebackers and maybe an end, and leave the secondary alone for the most part for one more year. Now, we'll get Batten back next year. He might be pretty good. I think Moats has the build and the talent to be a real solid linebacker. I like K.Williams and Troupe as rotation - but, if we could get a second rounder for K. Williams then I'd take it. Hopefully Carrington will pan out.

 

I'm thinking we can work with Poz and Moats, hope Batten has something and Coleman develops. We've got Davis for another year. I think we should add two good LB's - starters, that can get to the QB. One very good one. And then we add a very good DE. If we did that I think we could see, with the added experience, enough of quality out of the defense to know, the next year (2012), where we'll need to fine tune.

I've said it before - I'll say it again - I would like to see these young guys get more playing time: Moats, Coleman, Carrington, Troupe, and Maybin, just so we better know, next year, what we need.

 

As for K. Williams, having now gotten playing time as a NT, and maybe added five pounds to his playing frame, I think if you put him in a 4-3, Tampa 2 defense with a good DT to play with, then you've got a real game changing player, one who will make big plays. All alone, though, and he isn't great. That is why I would support trading him - for a good draft pick - to a team like the Texans, who have a lot of the pieces in place.

[qdawg in philly]

Kyle is a beast!! Mckelvin is inconsistent and hasn't played up to that 11th pick! Moats and Coleman will be great in time! And we have to see what Danny Batten will offer!

Troup and Carrington will be good next year! With time comes experience! Its a good young nucleus! Just need a little time!

But I agree with Talley, build the d around kyle!!!

 

This is a subject I've thought about, as well.

I think if we had a different coordinator we'd see different production out of these guys, and I think if the spots were entirely open to best talent and most capable of real production based on game day work, I think we'd see a few changes in the lineup - G. Wilson, for instance, at times looked much better than D. Whitner.

 

Anyway, I'm hoping our secondary is still pretty good when given a good pass rush. I think we'll find out next year because I'm guessing they address the linebackers and maybe an end, and leave the secondary alone for the most part for one more year. Now, we'll get Batten back next year. He might be pretty good. I think Moats has the build and the talent to be a real solid linebacker. I like K.Williams and Troupe as rotation - but, if we could get a second rounder for K. Williams then I'd take it. Hopefully Carrington will pan out.

 

I'm thinking we can work with Poz and Moats, hope Batten has something and Coleman develops. We've got Davis for another year. I think we should add two good LB's - starters, that can get to the QB. One very good one. And then we add a very good DE. If we did that I think we could see, with the added experience, enough of quality out of the defense to know, the next year (2012), where we'll need to fine tune.

I've said it before - I'll say it again - I would like to see these young guys get more playing time: Moats, Coleman, Carrington, Troupe, and Maybin, just so we better know, next year, what we need.

 

As for K. Williams, having now gotten playing time as a NT, and maybe added five pounds to his playing frame, I think if you put him in a 4-3, Tampa 2 defense with a good DT to play with, then you've got a real game changing player, one who will make big plays. All alone, though, and he isn't great. That is why I would support trading him - for a good draft pick - to a team like the Texans, who have a lot of the pieces in place.

Are u serious? He is our best defensive player by far! He may need another year considering this is his first year at nt! Wish we had some real lb tho!

 

This is a subject I've thought about, as well.

I think if we had a different coordinator we'd see different production out of these guys, and I think if the spots were entirely open to best talent and most capable of real production based on game day work, I think we'd see a few changes in the lineup - G. Wilson, for instance, at times looked much better than D. Whitner.

 

Anyway, I'm hoping our secondary is still pretty good when given a good pass rush. I think we'll find out next year because I'm guessing they address the linebackers and maybe an end, and leave the secondary alone for the most part for one more year. Now, we'll get Batten back next year. He might be pretty good. I think Moats has the build and the talent to be a real solid linebacker. I like K.Williams and Troupe as rotation - but, if we could get a second rounder for K. Williams then I'd take it. Hopefully Carrington will pan out.

 

I'm thinking we can work with Poz and Moats, hope Batten has something and Coleman develops. We've got Davis for another year. I think we should add two good LB's - starters, that can get to the QB. One very good one. And then we add a very good DE. If we did that I think we could see, with the added experience, enough of quality out of the defense to know, the next year (2012), where we'll need to fine tune.

I've said it before - I'll say it again - I would like to see these young guys get more playing time: Moats, Coleman, Carrington, Troupe, and Maybin, just so we better know, next year, what we need.

 

As for K. Williams, having now gotten playing time as a NT, and maybe added five pounds to his playing frame, I think if you put him in a 4-3, Tampa 2 defense with a good DT to play with, then you've got a real game changing player, one who will make big plays. All alone, though, and he isn't great. That is why I would support trading him - for a good draft pick - to a team like the Texans, who have a lot of the pieces in place.

Are u serious? He is our best defensive player by far! He may need another year considering this is his first year at nt! Wish we had some real lb tho!

[rpcolosi]

interesting post...

 

of the current vets, I think the only person who could end up really shocking people (if he were to be on a different team or get the chance to play) is Yobouty. I'm not a huge fan of Corner and think Florence has frankly looked horrible this year. I dont think ashton will ever be a shut down CB (as we hope McKelvin might) but he could be a solid #2 who is able to blitz the qb. also he's from OSU so you know he's a "sure tackler."

 

the only guys of the VETERANS worth building around are Kyle Williams, McGee, McKelvin, Byrd and Dwan Edwards. Poz doesnt look like he is going to be brought back - he can't stay healthy, and though he's a good tackler, he rarely has teh ability to stand up a RB at the point of attack (over=pursuing and getting dragged by MJD a few weeks ago ring any bells?), he is not a great pass rusher, and can not shed blocks well.

 

Of the younger group, I've really, really liked what I've seen from Troupe in a short amount of time. The guy has very active hands, and like Dwan Edwards, has been seen running back downfield to make tackles. He has held up decently well at the POA and has taken on 2 blockers a few times, something I havent seen a NT do for the Bills in a long time. He and Kyle Williams are a nice duo to have in the middle there. I'd even be interested to see Williams at end.

 

Carrington could go the route of Chris ellis or he could develop into something of a player, only time will tell. The thing he's got going for him is that he's the right size for a 3-4 end. Ellis had the size but lacked speed as a 3-4 OLB, though he did seem to have some pass rush ability in those first few games. Frankly, Gailey saw 3 years of Chris Ellis while at GT, I get the feeling he wasn't too afraid of him...

 

Moats,Coleman,Batten - LB is our weakest position on this team and I am expecting these guys to all make huge strides next year. The first two look to be possibly edge rushers and have the size for it, the big question is, do they have teh speed. I still dont see an LB on this roster who can cover a tight end (ellison/bryan scott can poorly) so that needs to be addressed - but I believe Moats and Coleman can eventually provide a pass rush. Also, everyone here has forgotten Batten but the kid was an absolute stud in college. It's a shame he is hurt. Maybe He goes the route of Nic Harris, or maybe not... this is a great piece on him. I'm excited to see him inside - I really think he will end up replacing Poz for us and eventually will be an upgrade. The kid just had a knack for making plays:

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1278737

 

and moats/coleman - i'll let yall praise those two..

 

GO BILLS!

 

Also - its important to note - Nix and Co. must have clearly seen that LB is a huge, huge weakness before this season as they drafted Batten and Moats and snatched Coleman up right away. They knew awhile ago we had crap in the cupboard and I've got a feeling knew Poz was serviceable for a year and that A. Davis would be a great mentor, but truthfully they need young blood. Ayodele won't be back, though Torbor and Ellison could provide good ST and depth for us.

[Green Lightning]

I think you'll see Troup developing nicely. He's still learning technique but he's plenty strong and will get stronger. He's already getting double-teamed and I think he'll be collapsing pockets soon. I like Coleman and Moats and wish they would sit Kelsay and play Carrington.

[Hplarrm]

Specifically (as the little woman is off for a girls' weekend in NYC and I have nothing on the agenda until this evening-

 

Marcus Stroud- On the backend of his career and not a hidden gem- highest and best use may be situational but too big a cap hit for this role

 

Kyle Williams- a far better player than expected from his pre-draft pronosticating and he has improved with his play. However, not hidden at all and play which won him Pro Bowl alternate status is likely best he will do.

 

Chris Kelsay- must be an incredibly solid character guy or he has compromising pictures of Littman and Mr. Ralph as his play on the field does not at all merit the two huge contracts post draft he has gotten from the Bills

 

Paul Posluszny - a hidden gem only to the extent that his injuries and his performance on the field have not lived up to his lofty second round pick status. I think he could become a reasonable flexible starter quality LB in the NFL (a Kavika Mitchell level player) but not only is he not hidden but there still remain injury questions that make it hard to rely on his good brain and some good speed.

 

Dwan Edwards- Also not hidden from anyone as his previous play has scored him a pretty good contract from the Bills but it appears doubtful he can carry a team on his substantial shoulders but can be a good player with a good team around him.

 

Torell Troup- so far so good as he clearly has not singlehandedly made this a good team against the rush (did anyone really expect that would be the case). However, his simplu a mammoth guy and you cannot teach size. Being able to credibly get PT is good enough so far for a youngster (Maybin has shown how bad it can be for ranking or utilizing a young player,

 

Reggie Torbor- journeyman who has stepped up nicely to a starter role because the Bills were forced to do so. No expectations he can be a hidden gem.

 

Andra Davis- another Kavika Mitchell level player, He may even win you one or two games a season with crunchtime plays but is neither hidden nor good enough to lead a team like a Ray Lewis does. Not being as good as the best is not the requirement for adequacy but no one should fool themselves that he is the best LB ever.

 

Spencer Johnson- Another adequate but not great player- I would say he has made a couple of nice plays that impressed me but I have seen nothing by which I would say he is a hidden gem.

 

Antonio Coleman-No secret he is a back-up level player at best

 

Akin Ayodele - also no secret about this back-up level player

 

Alex Carrington - I do have not seen him even around for many snaps so the jury is still way out

 

Arthur Moats- some impressive plays during pre-season but if this guy is gonna contribute for us its gonna be on ST.

 

Keith Ellison- not a surprise anymore and can play the pass well but no one mistakes him for a run stopper

 

John McCargo- he's still cashing paychecks from this team? Oh yeah a hidden anti-gem

 

Aaron Maybin- He's still cashing paychecks from this team. Oh yeah, maybe he will blossom when they dhift him to safety.

 

Reggie Torbor- actually already over his head a bit as a starter.

 

Arthur Moats- he actually might be a hidden gem as a special teamer,

 

And the rest- though personally I prefer the Professor and Mary Anne

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[jr1]

Maybin and McCargo could buy a lot of gems with the money they stole from the Bills

[Spiderweb]

too well hidden. cant find any

 

Drat, I was going to add of course we've got a number of hidden gems, but they're well hidden. That's why they're "hidden gems".

[CSBill]

Aaron Maybin . . . seriously, watch him tear it up next year

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Specifically (as the little woman is off for a girls' weekend in NYC and I have nothing on the agenda until this evening-

 

What? Y'all aren't going to do the laundry and vacuum? JK...I think....

 

Great list here. Now I'm going to dive into it with a scissors

 

Kyle Williams- "Number 95 is the only one with a motor. Draft around him" - Darryl Talley

 

Paul Posluszny - you say: he could become a reasonable flexible starter quality LB in the NFL (a Kavika Mitchell level player)

I concur. I think all his injuries and the changing defensive schemes have hindered his development.

With a good draft, he could become quality depth. A stud...he aint. Is it true that Posluzny means "glass" in polish?

 

Dwan Edwards- you say: can be a good player with a good team around him. I agree. Solid. He's also got mileage - need to groom his replacement

 

Torell Troup- I have hopes for this guy.

 

Andra Davis- You say: another Kavika Mitchell level player I concur. Quality depth.

 

Antonio Coleman-You say: No secret he is a back-up level player at best I say: my jury is out for this guy.

He led the SEC in tackles for loss and sacks, and from bits I saw he did it with brains/technique, not brawn or speed.

That bodes well for ability to transition to the level where everybody's strong and fast.

As a rookie, they are asking him to transition from DE to LB and learn a new scheme, which is slowing his progress.

Yet unlike Maybin, he's actually seeing the field. He's a smart guy - 2 degrees.

Give him an off-season to condition and learn and see what you get. If he wants it bad enough -- he could be a "sleeper".

(Send him to Don Beebe's "House of Speed" )

 

Alex Carrington - you say: jury is still way out I concur. I wish he were getting more playing time.

 

Arthur Moats- you say: if this guy is gonna contribute for us its gonna be on ST. I say: Jury is still out. What I see, I like.

He's another one that they're asking to transition from DE to LB. Give him time. I like that he is described as an "overachiever".

That's another way of saying "How bad do you want it? Bad enough."

 

I add: Danny Batten. Wish he hadn't been injured. I guess total lack of visibility could make him a hidden gem.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

That's who I'd keep on DL, either because they're decent, or the jury is still out. If we're lucky, there are 4 true starters there.

 

Big screaming needs IMO: strong-side linebacker, middle linebacker, and DE.

[Beerball]

I'm surprised that in 2 pages nobody has mentioned Byrd in either a positive or negative light. You certainly can't consider his play this year gem-like.

 

1. Has his play deteriorated because of coaching? Scheme?

 

2. Was his play last year an anomoly?

 

3. Was his play last year a mirage? Did he get picks because he was in the right place at the right time?

 

4. Did he make plays last year because he was the beneficiary of some of some terrible passes?

 

#4 is my answer and I said so last year. I hope I'm wrong, but he has been disappointing this season.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Beerball

[Bob in STL]

This season we have had discovered some "hidden gems" on offense (Fitz, Johnson) and revived some old unused talent (Parrish). My question is there anyone on this defense that could be a late bloomer? Carrington? Troup? I wish I could say Maybin....but I won't.

 

Kyle Williams is a solid player.

 

The jury is still out on Troup, and Carrington is an unknown.

 

LB is lacking in talent. We have nothing. I do not see Moats as anything more than special teams. I still hope he develops.

 

In the secondary the top prospects are McKelvin and Bryd. Neither are "hiddden gems" since they are high drfat picks.

 

We had some but we let one go to New Orleans and other one plays for the Jets.

 

Overall it looks like slim pickins' on defense. That could be why we give up 34 points per game?

Edited October 31, 2010 by Bob in STL

[Stenbar]

We may not have enough capable linebackers to do this. Also it is easy to run against as you have big linemen against smaller linebackers. The bills get run over regularly anyway. Why make it easier?

Or maybe it won't be any worse.

The very first time I heard they were going to switch to a 3-4 defense I cringed. Not because I like or dislike the 3-4 or 4-3 its the fact that we had drafted the front seven to playa 4-3 for ten yrs and the worst part of our defense in my opinion were our linebackers, now were gonna play les dl man and play more of our terrible linebackers. I had the feeling we were going to get alot worse, then when they didnt really go out and bring in mass lbrs in freeagency that could play as a good starter at the position I figured that the Bills were really looking forward to a total rebuild job, tearing down before getting better. Which I dont mind as long as we dont draft like we have the past ten yrs. But I dont see any hidden gems on this defense whatsoever.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I'm surprised that in 2 pages nobody has mentioned Byrd in either a positive or negative light. You certainly can't consider his play this year gem-like.

 

1. Has his play deteriorated because of coaching? Scheme?

 

2. Was his play last year an anomoly?

 

3. Was his play last year a mirage? Did he get picks because he was in the right place at the right time?

 

4. Did he make plays last year because he was the beneficiary of some of some terrible passes?

 

#4 is my answer and I said so last year. I hope I'm wrong, but he has been disappointing this season.

 

How about this?

 

5. His play isn't up to last year 'cuz he's still not 100% back to football shape after surgury/infection in groin injury this summer, now knee injury

 

I also think he benefited from poor QB pressure and "less-porous bad" run defense vs. this year: no QB pressure and "sieve-like bad run defense.

(I had to think how to word that -- I started out with "better" run defense, couldn't let that through)

[Kelly the Dog]

Kyle Williams is the most overrated underrated player in recent memory. He's a decent player. He tries incredibly hard. He's an over-achiever. He does way better than he should.

 

And he consistently gets beat, over-matched and doesn't make a lot of plays. Which is why he is a decent and not good player. Not to mention playing in a bad defense for him.