starrymessenger Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 Any cursory observation of his college career or preseason work shows he has uncanny natural instincts. On some of his carries in the regular season so far I think he's hesitating a bit and picking the wrong hole, but he's shown plenty of flashes that indicates there isn't a major issue. I'm not really sure what devastating evidence you've uncovered to the contrary. He is obviously a great athlete and yes I've seen his highlight reel - but that is a college highlight reel. What I don't know is how much his achievements as a college player depend upon the existence of a signficant difference between his athleticism and that of his opponents on D - a margin which is at best much reduced in the pro ranks. Maybe he can't run quite the way he did in college in the pros. Maybe he has to adjust. I don't have any "devastating evidence". What I think I see is a RB who fails to see the hole, fails to see how the play is developing, and who does not create holes through changes in direction - for a point of comparison see the video clip and comments on Johnson in last weeks' Playbook, for example. The guys commenting on the Ravens game had the same thing to say when CJ tried to turn the corner in lieu of turning it upfield. On that play in particular, it was not just a case of his getting the important extra yards instead of looking for the home run ball, as they said. If he turned it upfield he had a much better chance of breaking it. Even you say he hesitates and picks the wrong hole. Lots of other posters in this thread have seen the same or similoar things. I'm just saying that bears watching and could be a problem.
John from Riverside Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 10-touch per game situational back. Everyone wants to crucify me every time I've said it (and I've been saying it since the draft). Would be a decent pick for a good team. For a bad team in need of a superstar, it just wasn't a sound selection. You are wrong People want to crucify you because of your lack of football knowledge. You waste draft picks by "reaching" for football players with that top pick.... Think of the players that people would have had no problem with had we used that pick to take them - Jimmie Clausen (just got started then moved to the bench by a team that has QB needs) - Brian Bulaga (looks very bad at right tackle right now) - Sam Bradford was not there - It looks like every LT we wanted is either struggling right now....or WASNT THERE to be drafted - Trade downs have to make sense....the fact that the bills did NOT trade down can also mean we were not being offered the right amount of value. Would you rather we got jipped on a trade? oh and - We did not know that Marshawn Lynch was even going to report...we also didn't know if he was going to stay out of trouble - Fred Jackson is a good back and he is also a little older back...the shelf life for running backs is very low - We had no way of knowing Joique Bell was going to look so good. So what did the bills do? They took what was widely considered to be one of the best offensive playmakers out of this draft for a team that at the time was seemed totally devoid of playmakers. Yesterday CJ didnt do much because the Ravens kicker kept kicking the ball out of the park for touchbacks.
Punch Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 He is obviously a great athlete and yes I've seen his highlight reel - but that is a college highlight reel. What I don't know is how much his achievements as a college player depend upon the existence of a signficant difference between his athleticism and that of his opponents on D - a margin which is at best much reduced in the pro ranks. Maybe he can't run quite the way he did in college in the pros. Maybe he has to adjust. I don't have any "devastating evidence". What I think I see is a RB who fails to see the hole, fails to see how the play is developing, and who does not create holes through changes in direction - for a point of comparison see the video clip and comments on Johnson in last weeks' Playbook, for example. The guys commenting on the Ravens game had the same thing to say when CJ tried to turn the corner in lieu of turning it upfield. On that play in particular, it was not just a case of his getting the important extra yards instead of looking for the home run ball, as they said. If he turned it upfield he had a much better chance of breaking it. Even you say he hesitates and picks the wrong hole. Lots of other posters in this thread have seen the same or similoar things. I'm just saying that bears watching and could be a problem. I clearly said that in observing him in college and the preseason he obviously has natural football instincts... I'm not referring to his athleticism. And yes, I acknowledged he's struggled here and there in making reads with the football, but that's natural for a rookie with limited touches. I don't think it's endemic of some fatal flaw, it's something that will work itself out as he becomes more involved and his experience level grows. Of course, his development needs monitoring, and I think each of the reasons I've given in this thread regarding how Gailey is bringing him along are directly related to just that. If he's still averaging 4 or 5 rushing attempts per game at the end of the season, then I'll be really disappointed. The O-line play and overall offensive rhythm have improved to the point that Gailey should feel more comfortable letting him loose. Hopefully, that's what happens.
akm0404 Posted October 26, 2010 Posted October 26, 2010 You are wrong People want to crucify you because of your lack of football knowledge. Except for the simple fact that I was right. Well, he's actually getting less than 10 touches per game. But either way, the Bills are treating him the way that many pundits thought that he'd have to be treated due to his frame and running style - with kid gloves. I wish more than anything else that Spiller was a superstar workhorse. Just doesn't look that way.
evilbuffalobob Posted October 26, 2010 Posted October 26, 2010 I knew that Spiller was a bit of a luxury when we drafted him as there were much bigger needs. But the offense needed a playmaker and I thought that if he lives up to the hype, he will be worth it. Watching yesterday, I believe that he headlines what is potentially another lousy draft. The really good ones have the vision to find the hole and then hit it. Lynch did not have that vision, Freddy does. Spiller doesn't have it either. On one running play going up the middle, there was a huge hole to the left. Spiller started that way, hesitated, went straight for a small gain. I am also disappointed that the guy still hasn't learned that the sideline is not his friend. If you want to bounce it outside fine, but then cut it up the field. This is what got him benched and he still hasn't learned. I also do not see the strength to break tackles, which is where the Johnson comparisons really break down. Spiller is young and may continue to develop. But right now he looks like a back-up running back and kick returner. He was an extravagance at #9, exactly what the media said. I hate it when they are right. Hard to have faith in Nix when his draft did not produce even one impact player. Troup is kind of average. Carrington doesn't dress. Forget about everybody else. For this team to get better, the drafting MUST get better. Find a pass rusher. I saw that hole to the left and could not believe the drunks in the booth didn't say anthing about it.
Dan Posted October 26, 2010 Posted October 26, 2010 The big rush is most football fans have the patience of 4 year olds. If you aren't dominating out of the box, people want to label you a bust. If you have a couple good games (or ever a very average half of a preseason game like Clausen), you're a star. Hot pocket mentality. I WANT IT NOW!!! Agreed.
akm0404 Posted October 26, 2010 Posted October 26, 2010 All of the other teams get it now. Only the Bills must wait. Maybe he'll get good in 3 years just in time for free agency.
4BillsintheBurgh Posted October 26, 2010 Posted October 26, 2010 I'm beginning to think it's not just the players that need to break out of their loser mentality.
Punch Posted October 26, 2010 Posted October 26, 2010 (edited) Except for the simple fact that I was right. Well, he's actually getting less than 10 touches per game. I guarantee people on this board do not dislike you because you can count. All of the other teams get it now. Only the Bills must wait. Maybe he'll get good in 3 years just in time for free agency. It's because you're a miserable condescending siphon. You apparently won't be happy until you've brought everyone here down to your level of Bills hatred. The few times where I agree with you are not worth the endless negativity you leave behind in every single thread. Edited October 26, 2010 by Punch
Dorkington Posted October 26, 2010 Posted October 26, 2010 I don't understand how Spiller is a bust when the plays he has been in there, he's done relatively well. Just because a veteran is higher on the roster than you does not mean you are a bust as a rookie. It means that you came into a team where you weren't expected to be the #1 guy right away. I'll call him a bust when he gets the starting role and stinks it up. Until then I'll enjoy that we have two backs that do different things, and do them well.
Fan in San Diego Posted October 26, 2010 Posted October 26, 2010 Chris Johnson rookie season: 16.7 attempts per game 1228 yards 4.9 yards per carry 9 touchdowns 43 receptions 260 receiving yards 1 receiving touchdown C.J. Spiller rookie season: 4.3 attempts per game 113 yards 4.3 yards per carry 0 touchdowns 13 receptions 48 receiving yards 1 receiving touchdown The numbers speak for themselves. Superstar vs. bit player. Also, Ryan Mathews (despite injury), has more than 2x the attempts and yards. Jahvid Best has more than 3x attempts and yards, with 5x the touchdowns. Both play on pretty bad teams (2 wins and 1 win respectively). The best case you can make for Spiller is that he is terribly misused and was a luxury backup running back pick for a team that almost no NFL-caliber players to begin with. But, compared to recent rookie running backs taken high (don't get me started on Adrian Peterson), he has made completely zero impact. Can we get the 1st 6 weeks of Johnson compared to the first 6 weeks of Spiller? If not the comparison is useless.
Dorkington Posted October 26, 2010 Posted October 26, 2010 The comparison is worthless regardless... Johnson came into a backfield ready for him to be the #1 guy. The Bills already had two #1 guys when Spiller came in and gave them a 3rd option for #1. They since got rid of Lynch (which I'm sad about still), so I'd imagine as the season goes on, Spiller will get more use, and next season we'll see him get even more touches vs Freddie.
K-9 Posted October 26, 2010 Posted October 26, 2010 Can we get the 1st 6 weeks of Johnson compared to the first 6 weeks of Spiller? If not the comparison is useless. While we're at it, can we get the exact same QB, OL, WRs, TEs, opposing defenses, down/distance, and game situations for EVERY CJ Johnson run and catch in his first six games? The comparison between Spiller and Johnson would still be useless, but at least we'd have a bit more context to make such a useless comparison. GO BILLS!!!
John from Riverside Posted October 26, 2010 Posted October 26, 2010 Because they don't. You are assuming they are. It's rare that a rookie even sees the field much less starts day one. Remember Marv Levy? Bills rookies rarely saw play in year one. Your post is more emotional ranting than reasoned argument. If you look at every NFL rookie you will find some will contribute more than others, but just because Spiller isn't a pro bowler yet doesn't mean he won't develop into a great player. And puh-leeeze save the Aaron Maybin comparison. Spiller has already shown he can make plays in the NFL. What has Aaron Maybin done in two years? PTR Jesus look at all those defensive backs in his "stats" If we took a defensive back the fans might literally burn the stadium to the ground. Thats the difference between KNOWING football and spitting out a bunch of numbers. C.J. Spiller has barely gotten any playing time. To compare Chris Johnson's 251 carries as a rookie to Spiller on his way to getting about 80 his rookie season is ridiculous. Throwing away the 1st two games, Spiller has 18 carries for 104 yards. Not too shabby. I can't believe this is what people resort to b!tching about. I didn't like the pick, but he is not a bust, not even close, not after six whole games and not after this or next season. I will say I agree though, that if a rookie is going to make a contribution, especially at a skill position, it will most likely be a RB. What I am wondering is if Fitzy keeps this up...and we still end up with the 1st pick and it happens to be Andrew Luck....will people be bitching that we did that? CJ Spiller was the best RB on the board (and it was a need given the complete unknown with Lynch at the time) we went into the draft needing offensive play makers and so thats what the bills did. It was a solid pick and the right pick. He isn't getting carries like Chris Johnson because the RB in front of him is playing very well. - There was no OT worth of that pick at the time - I like Pouncy but it was not worthy of that pick...and we have NO IDEA what the bills were getting for trade down offers It was the right thing to do.....and keep in mind RB's get dinged up all the time....it is a very grueling position. All the crybaby's will stop talking about this should god forbid there is a injury to the position that takes the hardest hits in the game. FOLKS OTHER TEAMS PLAYERS ARE TALKING ABOUT HOW GOOD OUR RUNNING BACKS ARE. For christ sake While we're at it, can we get the exact same QB, OL, WRs, TEs, opposing defenses, down/distance, and game situations for EVERY CJ Johnson run and catch in his first six games? The comparison between Spiller and Johnson would still be useless, but at least we'd have a bit more context to make such a useless comparison. GO BILLS!!! The one useful stat I have seen in this thread is the amount of carries per game compared between Johnson and Spiller. Anyone who knows ANYTHING about football understand that running backs NEED CARRIES in order to produce the numbers......because you will have to get the ball to break off the big runs....you get minus yardage carries, +2, +5, etc etc then you break off a big run (and you naysayers know damn well Spiller is capable of that) and it all adds up to a whole body of work.
akm0404 Posted October 26, 2010 Posted October 26, 2010 It's because you're a miserable condescending siphon. I'm sorry that I made you feel sad
Punch Posted October 26, 2010 Posted October 26, 2010 I'm sorry that I made you feel sad More condescension, eh? I feel you.
akm0404 Posted October 26, 2010 Posted October 26, 2010 Guys, I'm not saying that C.J. Spiller is no good or he is a bust. I'm just expressing my frustration that we wasted such a high draft pick on a player that doesn't get on the field. I don't know why ya'll don't want C.J. getting 25 touches a game if he is such an explosive game-changer. It really feels like a waste on many levels that our coaching staff has relegated him to the role of bit player, especially in light of many other rookies getting significant meaningful playing time. And if the reason why we don't let C.J. Spiller play is that Fred Jackson is just too good to limit his attempts, it really begs the question of why we drafted a player at a position manned by an untouchable incumbent. Either our coaching staff is wasting one of the league's superstar talents by depriving him of touches, or they think that he isn't as good as the #1 guy on the depth chart. Both of those options make me frown. Let's get C.J. 25 touches next game so we can get some return on our investment!
Punch Posted October 26, 2010 Posted October 26, 2010 Guys, I'm not saying that C.J. Spiller is no good or he is a bust. I'm just expressing my frustration that we wasted such a high draft pick on a player that doesn't get on the field. I don't know why ya'll don't want C.J. getting 25 touches a game if he is such an explosive game-changer. It really feels like a waste on many levels that our coaching staff has relegated him to the role of bit player, especially in light of many other rookies getting significant meaningful playing time. And if the reason why we don't let C.J. Spiller play is that Fred Jackson is just too good to limit his attempts, it really begs the question of why we drafted a player at a position manned by an untouchable incumbent. Either our coaching staff is wasting one of the league's superstar talents by depriving him of touches, or they think that he isn't as good as the #1 guy on the depth chart. Both of those options make me frown. Let's get C.J. 25 touches next game so we can get some return on our investment! I think most of us do... I certainly would like to see him get more touches. I also think Chan is bringing him along this way intentionally. Did you see Rob Gronkowski ignore his blitz pickup assignment last night for Dallas? Tony Romo has a broken clavicle and is out for 8-10 weeks--- ie, the season. Spiller was awful in that regard, but has steadily improved. IMHO, giving him the ball 20-25 times per game this early in the year will not dramatically alter the Bills fortunes for 2010 but will only serve to add unnecessary miles to his treads. He should be getting those kinds of touches by the end of the season, so we can enter 2011 with a complete, all around, and confident RB. Maybe it's not the approach a lot of teams have taken, but I think it's reasonable considering the current state of the team. If he's still averaging 4 rushing attempts per game in a few weeks, I'll be pretty disappointed. For now, not so much.
John from Riverside Posted October 26, 2010 Posted October 26, 2010 Guys, I'm not saying that C.J. Spiller is no good or he is a bust. I'm just expressing my frustration that we wasted such a high draft pick on a player that doesn't get on the field. I don't know why ya'll don't want C.J. getting 25 touches a game if he is such an explosive game-changer. It really feels like a waste on many levels that our coaching staff has relegated him to the role of bit player, especially in light of many other rookies getting significant meaningful playing time. And if the reason why we don't let C.J. Spiller play is that Fred Jackson is just too good to limit his attempts, it really begs the question of why we drafted a player at a position manned by an untouchable incumbent. Either our coaching staff is wasting one of the league's superstar talents by depriving him of touches, or they think that he isn't as good as the #1 guy on the depth chart. Both of those options make me frown. Let's get C.J. 25 touches next game so we can get some return on our investment! Maybe its because he had Freddie Jackson in front of him and is producing just fine.....and there is no reason to give a rookie 25 carries when there is a perfectly fine producing back as the main ball carrier for now so they are easing him in a little slower and allowing him to produce on special teams first and spelling the main ball carrier And BEFORE you put up the argument again as to why we wasted a draft pick on a backup running back.....once again keep in mind Jackson is playing one of the most physical grueling easy to get hurt positons on th team.....and CJ is waiting in the wings.
NaPolian8693 Posted October 27, 2010 Posted October 27, 2010 Maybe its because he had Freddie Jackson in front of him and is producing just fine.....and there is no reason to give a rookie 25 carries when there is a perfectly fine producing back as the main ball carrier for now so they are easing him in a little slower and allowing him to produce on special teams first and spelling the main ball carrier And BEFORE you put up the argument again as to why we wasted a draft pick on a backup running back.....once again keep in mind Jackson is playing one of the most physical grueling easy to get hurt positons on th team.....and CJ is waiting in the wings. So by this logic, every team should spend their top draft pick on a backup running back, no matter how stable their current running back situation is. You never know when someone is going to get hurt!
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