BuffaloATL Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 You can always count on the Stadium Wall to rush to judgement on every player. How about letting Spiller adjust to the pro game before writing him off? Or maybe we can trade him for a 7th rounder, duuuuh,. PTR Exactly.
PromoTheRobot Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 Perhaps you don't watch enough football to realize this, but running back is the easiest and most common position for a rookie to come in and be the starter and make a big impact right away. Your opinion carries extra weight since your Ravens prediction. PTR
K-9 Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 I'm not saying that C.J. Spiller is no good. I'm saying that we made a blunder of epic proportions in drafting him. He gets no touches, makes zero impact. Rookies are making huge impact on good, contending teams. Our rookies make zero impact on a terrible team. He also just simply isn't as electric a player as Chris Johnson, who took over a role on that team by making huge plays when he touched the ball. We are both not using Spiller at all, and on the rare occasions that we do, he isn't making any impact. That is bad. We draft players and spend the next 3 years spouting off how we just need to give them time. Meanwhile, other NFL teams draft rookies who start and make an immediate impact. Why do we have to always wait? I'd be interested in knowing which rookies are making these huge impacts on which contending teams. Just use the current standings, select which teams are in the playoffs, and then report back on what rookies are having these huge impacts. GO BILLS!!!
akm0404 Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 Your opinion carries extra weight since your Ravens prediction. PTR Care to address his assertion that running back is the easiest position on the field for a rookie to make immediate impact? It is indefensible, so I'm going to just guess no.
bladiebla Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 4.7 ypc against one of the best defenses in the nfl... and you are ready to write him off based on some mistakes he made?
Dorkington Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 I wonder what his stats would be if he got the majority of the carries.
PromoTheRobot Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 Care to address his assertion that running back is the easiest position on the field for a rookie to make immediate impact? It is indefensible, so I'm going to just guess no. Yes...anyone who thinks they can evaluate a player watching him on TV for 6 games is a tool. Also anyone who thinks every great player hits the ground as a pro-bowler and doesn't have to grow into the role should stick to playing Madden because it's obvious that's where they get all their football smarts from. PTR
K-9 Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 (edited) Perhaps you don't watch enough football to realize this, but running back is the easiest and most common position for a rookie to come in and be the starter and make a big impact right away. This is one of my favorite myths. You are confusing the fact that RB is the easiest offensive position to transition to from college to pro with HOF RBs being easy to find. HOF RBs are taken in the first round far more often than not. Why is that? The simple fact is that if you think an RB is available that has that potential, you should take him if you don't already have one. Clearly, Spiller was the best RB in college (that is irrefutable by ANY statistical and performance measure)and the Bills feel he can be that special player. They didn't take him because they needed an RB, they took him because they feel he has the potential to be that once in a blue moon player. Maybe they screwed the pooch, maybe they didn't. That remains to be seen. Only an idiot would pronounce anything, good or bad, after six games. But I'll wait while you list all the HOF RBs taken in later rounds. I'll give you one; Terrell Davis, Denver Broncos. I'll give you another, Thurman Thomas and I dont' consider the second round as 'later' round. Now, give me five more from the modern era that weren't selected in the first two rounds. I'll wait. GO BILLS!!! Edited October 25, 2010 by K-9
CFLstyle Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 (edited) spiller's got some of the most talent in the NFL. I've never seen a RB as quick as him in Buffalo. He's barely even touched the ball and people are already whining? After a couple of nice runs, the first one which he almost took 92 yards for the TD from the 8, he had Ed Reed and Ray Lewis giving him props, they were saying nice run kid. some of the game's elite players know that this kid is special, but our very own fans are throwing him under the bus? ridiculous, hope this thread is still sticking around when he breaks out and becomes a superstar. A lot of people here are good at acting all tough and right after a couple of bad games. "see I told everyone it was a bad pick." Edited October 25, 2010 by CFLstyle
atlbillsfan1975 Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 I'm not saying that C.J. Spiller is no good. I'm saying that we made a blunder of epic proportions in drafting him. He gets no touches, makes zero impact. Rookies are making huge impact on good, contending teams. Our rookies make zero impact on a terrible team. He also just simply isn't as electric a player as Chris Johnson, who took over a role on that team by making huge plays when he touched the ball. We are both not using Spiller at all, and on the rare occasions that we do, he isn't making any impact. That is bad. We draft players and spend the next 3 years spouting off how we just need to give them time. Meanwhile, other NFL teams draft rookies who start and make an immediate impact. Why do we have to always wait? when you are on a bad team it is harder to make an impact. it is called a supporting cast. If you put Spiller on a team with a very good qb and oline, you would be seeing a much different player, imho.
H2o Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 Let's not forget Darren McFadden who was, by all accounts, a bust until this year. Way too early on all of the negative talk about Spiller.
Dan Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 You can always count on the Stadium Wall to rush to judgement on every player. How about letting Spiller adjust to the pro game before writing him off? Or maybe we can trade him for a 7th rounder, duuuuh,. PTR Thank you. I was hesitant to read this thread; but eventually had to confirm my initial assumption that even in the midst of a great offensive performance, there's still people that will find something to complain about. I guess we should take comfort in knowing that some things will never change. No matter what happens on Sunday, there will be someone at TSW on Monday complaining. In part, I think this team has sucked for so long that people no longer even know how to watch the game. The season isn't so much about watching football as it is calling out players and predicting drafts. Someone actually suggested yesterday... "if Fitz finishes as the #2 rated passer this season, we should trade him and draft a new QB". Clearly that individual has lost all ability to grasp the nuances of reality. The need for instant gratification has become rampant and veils entirely too many senseless comments and decisions.
akm0404 Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 I'd be interested in knowing which rookies are making these huge impacts on which contending teams. AFC East: New York Jets - Kyle Wilson (1st Round) - #3 corner (who has seen playing time at #2 corner) on one of the best defenses in the NFL. John Conner (5th Round) - Making impact at FB. Quickly nicknamed "The Terminator" for his punishing blocking style. New England Patriots - Devin McCourty (1st Round) - #2 corner starts at RCB. Averaging 5 tackles per game and had a monster pick to clinch the game against San Diego. Rob Gronkowski (2nd Round) - #1/#2 tight end, already has 3 touchdowns. Brandon Spikes (3rd Round) - Starting ILB. Aaron Hernandez (4th Round) - #1/#2 tight end, obviously making a huge impact with 355 yards (13.1 avg). Zoltan Mesko (5th Round) - 3rd in the NFL in net punting. Dominates our own Brian Moorman in every statistical category. AFC Central: Pittsburgh Steelers - Maurkice Pouncey (1st Round) - Starting center for perhaps the best team in the NFL, and anchors a dominant rushing attack. Tennessee Titans - Derrick Morgan (1st Round) - Was averaging a sack per game before falling to injury. Alterraun Verner (4th Round) - Huge impact as their starting RCB, averaging 5+ tackles per game with 2 picks. AFC West: Kansas City Chiefs - Eric Berry (1st Round) - Making a huge impact on the KC defense - 2 takeaways, plenty of tackles. Dexter McCluster (2nd Round) - Dynamic rushing/receiving/returning threat has produced similarly to C.J. Spiller and gets comparable touches. 2 touchdowns. Tony Moeaki (4th Round) - Huge impact TE with multiple touchdowns and an 11.2 yard average per catch. NFC East: Washington Redskins - Trent Williams (1st Round) - Obvious. Franchise LT. Had essentially no draft picks, but still nailed it. Philadelphia Eagles - Brandon Graham (1st Round) - One of the million pass rushers better than Aaron Maybin straight out of college. Sacks, forced a fumble. Solid player, and not even a starter. NFC North: Chicago Bears - J'Marcus Webb (7th Round) - Now their starting RT. Hit a homerun on the son of Richmond Webb. Green Bay Packers - Bryan Bulaga (1st Round) - Now their starting RT. Been playing very well as of late. Certainly making an impact. NFC South: Atlanta Falcons - Sean Weatherspoon (1st Round) - Starting OLB. Averaging more than 10 tackles per game, with a sack. Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Gerald McCoy (1st Round) - Obvious. Mike Williams (4th Round) - 28 for 365 and 3 touchdowns with a mediocre quarterback. Huge impact, literally winning games for them (see last week). New Orleans Saints - Patrick Robinson (1st Round) - Starting CB/Nickel-back. NFC West: Seattle Seahawks - Russell Okung (1st Round) - Franchise LT. Earl Thomas (1st Round) - Huge impact SS has already made game-changing plays. 30 tackles and 4 picks. Wow. St. Louis Rams - Only 1 win back, wow. Sam Bradford (1st Round) - Franchise QB. Superstar in the making. Rodger Saffold (2nd Round) - Franchise left tackle. Enough said. Obviously this was a pointless excercise and required a lot of work and will be summarily disregarded by those that think the Bills need to give time to all of their bust draft choices. These teams all have legitimate starters playing for them, players that see the field every down and make huge contributions. On good teams. We have none. This leaves out all of the excellent rookies that are seeing huge playing time and are making big impacts for bad teams. Ryan Mathews, Jahvid Best, Dez Bryant, Rolando McClain, Ndamukong Suh, Joe Haden, the list goes on and on. TLDR; summary: The Bills give no rookie meaningful playing time, despite having the least talented roster in the NFL. Nearly every other team has rookies making significant contributions, including some of the best teams in the NFL.
akm0404 Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 Yes...anyone who thinks they can evaluate a player watching him on TV for 6 games is a tool. Also anyone who thinks every great player hits the ground as a pro-bowler and doesn't have to grow into the role should stick to playing Madden because it's obvious that's where they get all their football smarts from. PTR Why does just about every other NFL team get significant contributions from their rookies? Why is it that only Buffalo is subjected to waiting for years for their draft choices to develop into superstar players (which they don't, as evidenced by the fact that we haven't seen a superstar in a decade). Why must we wait when every other team has a guy come in every year and thrive?
Punch Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 AFC East: New York Jets - Kyle Wilson (1st Round) - #3 corner (who has seen playing time at #2 corner) on one of the best defenses in the NFL. John Conner (5th Round) - Making impact at FB. Quickly nicknamed "The Terminator" for his punishing blocking style. New England Patriots - Devin McCourty (1st Round) - #2 corner starts at RCB. Averaging 5 tackles per game and had a monster pick to clinch the game against San Diego. Rob Gronkowski (2nd Round) - #1/#2 tight end, already has 3 touchdowns. Brandon Spikes (3rd Round) - Starting ILB. Aaron Hernandez (4th Round) - #1/#2 tight end, obviously making a huge impact with 355 yards (13.1 avg). Zoltan Mesko (5th Round) - 3rd in the NFL in net punting. Dominates our own Brian Moorman in every statistical category. AFC Central: Pittsburgh Steelers - Maurkice Pouncey (1st Round) - Starting center for perhaps the best team in the NFL, and anchors a dominant rushing attack. Tennessee Titans - Derrick Morgan (1st Round) - Was averaging a sack per game before falling to injury. Alterraun Verner (4th Round) - Huge impact as their starting RCB, averaging 5+ tackles per game with 2 picks. AFC West: Kansas City Chiefs - Eric Berry (1st Round) - Making a huge impact on the KC defense - 2 takeaways, plenty of tackles. Dexter McCluster (2nd Round) - Dynamic rushing/receiving/returning threat has produced similarly to C.J. Spiller and gets comparable touches. 2 touchdowns. Tony Moeaki (4th Round) - Huge impact TE with multiple touchdowns and an 11.2 yard average per catch. NFC East: Washington Redskins - Trent Williams (1st Round) - Obvious. Franchise LT. Had essentially no draft picks, but still nailed it. Philadelphia Eagles - Brandon Graham (1st Round) - One of the million pass rushers better than Aaron Maybin straight out of college. Sacks, forced a fumble. Solid player, and not even a starter. NFC North: Chicago Bears - J'Marcus Webb (7th Round) - Now their starting RT. Hit a homerun on the son of Richmond Webb. Green Bay Packers - Bryan Bulaga (1st Round) - Now their starting RT. Been playing very well as of late. Certainly making an impact. NFC South: Atlanta Falcons - Sean Weatherspoon (1st Round) - Starting OLB. Averaging more than 10 tackles per game, with a sack. Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Gerald McCoy (1st Round) - Obvious. Mike Williams (4th Round) - 28 for 365 and 3 touchdowns with a mediocre quarterback. Huge impact, literally winning games for them (see last week). New Orleans Saints - Patrick Robinson (1st Round) - Starting CB/Nickel-back. NFC West: Seattle Seahawks - Russell Okung (1st Round) - Franchise LT. Earl Thomas (1st Round) - Huge impact SS has already made game-changing plays. 30 tackles and 4 picks. Wow. St. Louis Rams - Only 1 win back, wow. Sam Bradford (1st Round) - Franchise QB. Superstar in the making. Rodger Saffold (2nd Round) - Franchise left tackle. Enough said. Obviously this was a pointless excercise and required a lot of work and will be summarily disregarded by those that think the Bills need to give time to all of their bust draft choices. These teams all have legitimate starters playing for them, players that see the field every down and make huge contributions. On good teams. We have none. This leaves out all of the excellent rookies that are seeing huge playing time and are making big impacts for bad teams. Ryan Mathews, Jahvid Best, Dez Bryant, Rolando McClain, Ndamukong Suh, Joe Haden, the list goes on and on. TLDR; summary: The Bills give no rookie meaningful playing time, despite having the least talented roster in the NFL. Nearly every other team has rookies making significant contributions, including some of the best teams in the NFL. So, basically you have nothing to do during the day? Unless shitting on cautiously optimistic Bills fans is your dayjob.
PromoTheRobot Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 (edited) Why does just about every other NFL team get significant contributions from their rookies? Why is it that only Buffalo is subjected to waiting for years for their draft choices to develop into superstar players (which they don't, as evidenced by the fact that we haven't seen a superstar in a decade). Why must we wait when every other team has a guy come in every year and thrive? Because they don't. You are assuming they are. It's rare that a rookie even sees the field much less starts day one. Remember Marv Levy? Bills rookies rarely saw play in year one. Your post is more emotional ranting than reasoned argument. If you look at every NFL rookie you will find some will contribute more than others, but just because Spiller isn't a pro bowler yet doesn't mean he won't develop into a great player. And puh-leeeze save the Aaron Maybin comparison. Spiller has already shown he can make plays in the NFL. What has Aaron Maybin done in two years? PTR Edited October 25, 2010 by PromoTheRobot
K-9 Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 AFC East: New York Jets - Kyle Wilson (1st Round) - #3 corner (who has seen playing time at #2 corner) on one of the best defenses in the NFL. John Conner (5th Round) - Making impact at FB. Quickly nicknamed "The Terminator" for his punishing blocking style. New England Patriots - Devin McCourty (1st Round) - #2 corner starts at RCB. Averaging 5 tackles per game and had a monster pick to clinch the game against San Diego. Rob Gronkowski (2nd Round) - #1/#2 tight end, already has 3 touchdowns. Brandon Spikes (3rd Round) - Starting ILB. Aaron Hernandez (4th Round) - #1/#2 tight end, obviously making a huge impact with 355 yards (13.1 avg). Zoltan Mesko (5th Round) - 3rd in the NFL in net punting. Dominates our own Brian Moorman in every statistical category. AFC Central: Pittsburgh Steelers - Maurkice Pouncey (1st Round) - Starting center for perhaps the best team in the NFL, and anchors a dominant rushing attack. Tennessee Titans - Derrick Morgan (1st Round) - Was averaging a sack per game before falling to injury. Alterraun Verner (4th Round) - Huge impact as their starting RCB, averaging 5+ tackles per game with 2 picks. AFC West: Kansas City Chiefs - Eric Berry (1st Round) - Making a huge impact on the KC defense - 2 takeaways, plenty of tackles. Dexter McCluster (2nd Round) - Dynamic rushing/receiving/returning threat has produced similarly to C.J. Spiller and gets comparable touches. 2 touchdowns. Tony Moeaki (4th Round) - Huge impact TE with multiple touchdowns and an 11.2 yard average per catch. NFC East: Washington Redskins - Trent Williams (1st Round) - Obvious. Franchise LT. Had essentially no draft picks, but still nailed it. Philadelphia Eagles - Brandon Graham (1st Round) - One of the million pass rushers better than Aaron Maybin straight out of college. Sacks, forced a fumble. Solid player, and not even a starter. NFC North: Chicago Bears - J'Marcus Webb (7th Round) - Now their starting RT. Hit a homerun on the son of Richmond Webb. Green Bay Packers - Bryan Bulaga (1st Round) - Now their starting RT. Been playing very well as of late. Certainly making an impact. NFC South: Atlanta Falcons - Sean Weatherspoon (1st Round) - Starting OLB. Averaging more than 10 tackles per game, with a sack. Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Gerald McCoy (1st Round) - Obvious. Mike Williams (4th Round) - 28 for 365 and 3 touchdowns with a mediocre quarterback. Huge impact, literally winning games for them (see last week). New Orleans Saints - Patrick Robinson (1st Round) - Starting CB/Nickel-back. NFC West: Seattle Seahawks - Russell Okung (1st Round) - Franchise LT. Earl Thomas (1st Round) - Huge impact SS has already made game-changing plays. 30 tackles and 4 picks. Wow. St. Louis Rams - Only 1 win back, wow. Sam Bradford (1st Round) - Franchise QB. Superstar in the making. Rodger Saffold (2nd Round) - Franchise left tackle. Enough said. Obviously this was a pointless excercise and required a lot of work and will be summarily disregarded by those that think the Bills need to give time to all of their bust draft choices. These teams all have legitimate starters playing for them, players that see the field every down and make huge contributions. On good teams. We have none. This leaves out all of the excellent rookies that are seeing huge playing time and are making big impacts for bad teams. Ryan Mathews, Jahvid Best, Dez Bryant, Rolando McClain, Ndamukong Suh, Joe Haden, the list goes on and on. TLDR; summary: The Bills give no rookie meaningful playing time, despite having the least talented roster in the NFL. Nearly every other team has rookies making significant contributions, including some of the best teams in the NFL. Thanks for the list. A lot of work went into it and I appreciate you making an honest effort here. I thought you would keep it to the 'contending' teams but that's OK as I get your point about giving rookies opportunities. Let's throw out any rookie taken before Spiller. With the exception of McClain, the Bills probably would have taken any of them if they were available. Definetely would have taken ANY of the top five before they took Spiller. My larger point is that ALL of the contending teams, with the exception of a couple (Seahawks, Skins, etc.) were ALREADY considered contending teams. They had their cores established and can afford to start rookies that round out the squad. Those teams would still be contending without any of them in their lineups. Taking nothing away from any of those players but they're like Henry Jones, Thomas Smith, John Fina, etc. were back in the day. I'll just agree to disagree with many of your other rookies. To cite Webb as having a huge impact on the Bears OLine is just an example. They have the worst OLine in the league. It's like us starting Howard. GO BILLS!!!
akm0404 Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 Thanks for the list. A lot of work went into it and I appreciate you making an honest effort here. I thought you would keep it to the 'contending' teams but that's OK as I get your point about giving rookies opportunities. All of the teams listed are in contention to win their division and make the playoffs. That's what I assumed "contenders" meant. Because they don't. You are assuming they are. It's rare that a rookie even sees the field much less starts day one. Remember Marv Levy? Bills rookies rarely saw play in year one. Except for like, all of those rookies that I listed off. It isn't rare, pretty much every single team has at least one rookie in their starting offense or defense.
buffaloaggie Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 Because they don't. You are assuming they are. It's rare that a rookie even sees the field much less starts day one. Remember Marv Levy? Bills rookies rarely saw play in year one. Your post is more emotional ranting than reasoned argument. If you look at every NFL rookie you will find some will contribute more than others, but just because Spiller isn't a pro bowler yet doesn't mean he won't develop into a great player. And puh-leeeze save the Aaron Maybin comparison. Spiller has already shown he can make plays in the NFL. What has Aaron Maybin done in two years? PTR C.J. Spiller has barely gotten any playing time. To compare Chris Johnson's 251 carries as a rookie to Spiller on his way to getting about 80 his rookie season is ridiculous. Throwing away the 1st two games, Spiller has 18 carries for 104 yards. Not too shabby. I can't believe this is what people resort to b!tching about. I didn't like the pick, but he is not a bust, not even close, not after six whole games and not after this or next season. I will say I agree though, that if a rookie is going to make a contribution, especially at a skill position, it will most likely be a RB.
C-zone Umpa Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 I knew that Spiller was a bit of a luxury when we drafted him as there were much bigger needs. But the offense needed a playmaker and I thought that if he lives up to the hype, he will be worth it. Watching yesterday, I believe that he headlines what is potentially another lousy draft. The really good ones have the vision to find the hole and then hit it. Lynch did not have that vision, Freddy does. Spiller doesn't have it either. On one running play going up the middle, there was a huge hole to the left. Spiller started that way, hesitated, went straight for a small gain. I am also disappointed that the guy still hasn't learned that the sideline is not his friend. If you want to bounce it outside fine, but then cut it up the field. This is what got him benched and he still hasn't learned. I also do not see the strength to break tackles, which is where the Johnson comparisons really break down. Spiller is young and may continue to develop. But right now he looks like a back-up running back and kick returner. He was an extravagance at #9, exactly what the media said. I hate it when they are right. Hard to have faith in Nix when his draft did not produce even one impact player. Troup is kind of average. Carrington doesn't dress. Forget about everybody else. For this team to get better, the drafting MUST get better. Find a pass rusher. HES A FRIGGIN ROOKIE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hes a guy that imposed his will at will in college..............there is going to be a huge change he needs to get used to! Give him a break hes made one bad play!!
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