Sisyphean Bills Posted October 15, 2010 Posted October 15, 2010 There is difference between "constructive criticism" or difference of opinion and malicious intent. I'm sure JW didn't come to this expecting not to meet people who didn't agree with him. Its a shame that someone, especially one who has good inside information of the bills, is getting pushed out by someone who feels empowered behind the safety of their keyboard. I understand that its a message board and there are going to be those jerk-offs but when someone is personally attacking you whether its the internet or in person its not right and if he wants to stop contributing because of these people than more power to him. After awhile you get sick of the same people and its not even worth it. Unfortunately it sucks for us because the quality of this board will continue to decline if we keep losing posters like him. That's the real problem. Why come here at all if there is no information? The endless crying that every news piece, whether it is opinion or reporting, is somehow flawed or insufficient is absurd. Reporters don't make the Buffalo Bills suck. The Bills make the Bills suck. Buy some perspective.
shrader Posted October 15, 2010 Posted October 15, 2010 1. Wawrow is not a columnist, and doesn't write opinion pieces. Thanks for answering my question before I even asked it. I haven't read everything he's ever written, but I don't remember seeing a single opinion piece. Does the AP even have any of those? Anyway, there seem to be some ridiculous expectations out there of writers lately. If they're not bringing down a presidency or singlehandedly ending a war, people are going to complain. Who am I kidding, they'll complain even if the writer does something like that. Unfortunately, in the minds of so many people lately, there's no place for a basic recap of events.
SuperKillerRobots Posted October 15, 2010 Posted October 15, 2010 If you can't handle criticism, you shouldn't be a writer producing opinion pieces for the public to consume. If you can't handle what happens on an Internet-based message board, you shouldn't post on one. If you think that someone saying that the opinion pieces you write and produce for public consumption are bad and feel that is "attacking" you, you probably aren't cut out for that line of work. Don't put yourself in the public eye if you can't handle people disagreeing with your opinions/style/work product. How this is rocket science is beyond me. You're right to a certain extent, but the issue I believe is that John, Tim, and Lori all used their real names and we all knew who they were. Your name here, akm0404 for instance, means nothing to anyone. We don't know who you are, nor who I am. It is nearly impossible to have any sort of reseasonable debate because one person is completely anonymous while the other has not only his/her name attached to it, but in some cases, part of their professional careers. If someone on this board attacks me, I have absolutely no problem telling them that they're an idiot ir anything else along those lines because no one knows who either of us are. With these writers it's different. These guys can't really say anything that bad to you because they could lose their job or just be seen as unprofessional as a result of what tey say. I'm not going to get fired for anythign I say on here because no one knows who I am and no one knows where I work (or if I do for that matter). The rule should be that if you want to really get into it with one of these writers - or anyone who uses their real name - you should have to use your own real name and list your employer. That might even it out a little bit. That's the real problem. Why come here at all if there is no information? The endless crying that every news piece, whether it is opinion or reporting, is somehow flawed or insufficient is absurd. Reporters don't make the Buffalo Bills suck. The Bills make the Bills suck. Buy some perspective. That might be the smartest thing anyone has ever said on this board. Ever.
akm0404 Posted October 15, 2010 Posted October 15, 2010 1. Wawrow is not a columnist, and doesn't write opinion pieces. 2. There's a difference between legitimate criticism and personal attacks. 3. The latter are prohibited in the TBD Terms of Service, which some people choose to ignore. Over 20 has it right: why bother continuing to participate? Some of this stuff really makes me wonder what portion of the posters here have never been on other Internet-based message boards. I suspect that John Wawrow posts here to get his name out there more, so that his writings reach a wider audience. Or maybe just for fun, who knows. Most people "bother" continuing to participate here because they enjoy the back and forth that these Internet-based message boards offer. "You are a dummy" has grown to mean "I disagree with the opinion that you expressed in your previous posting" on Internet-based message boards. This may offend your humanistic sensibilities, but it's just the nature of the beast. You can try to keep your corner of the Internet from changing to meet these modern communicative norms, but you'll just end up with smaller debate amongst a hold-out crew of like-minded folks. That is a choice to be made by the owners of this domain, but successful Internet-based message boards and their posters have adapted to this style. And suggesting that, because John isn't a "columnist", his pieces are devoid of opinion rings hollow with me. So, I'll simply say that I disagree with the opinion that you expressed in your previous posting. Every writer injects their own style (which is generally colored by their opinions and life experiences) into their work, and people may or may not enjoy it and may or may not criticize it. I just generally dislike the whole notion of, "I was personally attacked for posting my opinions on an Internet-based message board! It isn't worth it to post here because my feelings were hurt!". Frankly, it isn't "worth" anything to post on a message board such as this. It's just a fun thing that we do to engender debate among a community of individuals sharing a similar interest. If you have any experience on such message boards, you should fully expect that you will catch some heat when you post things that others disagree with. You should expect criticism in the manner that it is generally delivered in this medium - with a bit of bite. You should also expect a bit stronger bite if you separate yourself from the "regular" contributors by positioning yourself as an authority or give yourself a bit of "celebrity". To not expect that to place a target on yourself for extra criticism seems foolish. Just my opinion, hopefully in a style that doesn't violate the Terms of Service The rule should be that if you want to really get into it with one of these writers - or anyone who uses their real name - you should have to use your own real name and list your employer. That might even it out a little bit. I didn't pick John's username, or decide for him that he should post here from a position of notoriety/quasi-celebrity. That was a decision that he made for himself, theoretically understanding fully how that type of persona is received on an Internet-based message board. If I claimed to be a notable, recognizable person, I'd expect that my non-anonymous status would change how my posts are perceived.
BuffaloWings Posted October 15, 2010 Posted October 15, 2010 This is all becoming more disturbing every day. First Graham departs because we bash him endlessly while he's good enough to take time and post here. Then Lori's frequenting of the board becomes less & less. Now Wawrow. This combined with my wife's co-worker - he's a Jacksonville fan and went to the game last Sunday. He was treated worse than garbage before, during, and after the game. His wife (who went with him, even though she doesn't care for football too much) was actually afraid of being physically harmed. I'm beginning to think the Patriots* fan who filed a suit a few years back (I think) wasn't far off with his or his pregnant wife's stories. I'm a fan of this team, but I'm completely embarrassed when I hear this stuff. What gives Bills fans the right to harass other team's fans when our team can't even win a game? What happened to civility & sportsmanship?
Peace Posted October 15, 2010 Posted October 15, 2010 Thanks for answering my question before I even asked it. I haven't read everything he's ever written, but I don't remember seeing a single opinion piece. Does the AP even have any of those? Anyway, there seem to be some ridiculous expectations out there of writers lately. If they're not bringing down a presidency or singlehandedly ending a war, people are going to complain. Who am I kidding, they'll complain even if the writer does something like that. Unfortunately, in the minds of so many people lately, there's no place for a basic recap of events. If you read stories about the Bills or Sabers, you have read him.
dave mcbride Posted October 15, 2010 Posted October 15, 2010 (edited) If you can't handle criticism, you shouldn't be a writer producing opinion pieces for the public to consume. If you can't handle what happens on an Internet-based message board, you shouldn't post on one. If you think that someone saying that the opinion pieces you write and produce for public consumption are bad and feel that is "attacking" you, you probably aren't cut out for that line of work. Don't put yourself in the public eye if you can't handle people disagreeing with your opinions/style/work product. How this is rocket science is beyond me. This sort of thinking is basically an attempt to legitimize a-holes. It's common on this board, and it's sheer sophistry. I realize that trying to maintain intelligent discussion and a sense of decorum on an internet message board is difficult, but throwing up one's hands under the guise of a "get used to it - it's the nature of the beast" sort of argument is a defeatist rationalization. I'll never give in to that. He's also a reporter, not an opinion columnist. Edited October 15, 2010 by dave mcbride
VABills Posted October 15, 2010 Posted October 15, 2010 If you read stories about the Bills or Sabers, you have read him. What are Sabers?
tennesseeboy Posted October 15, 2010 Posted October 15, 2010 not a lot of civility on the board. We have people threatening physical violence and questioning people's right to be alive. Doesn't phase me, but I can see how some might be put off by it. I just consider the source and keep on keepin'on.
akm0404 Posted October 15, 2010 Posted October 15, 2010 He's also a reporter, not an opinion columnist. When he posts on this message board, he's just a guy with an opinion like me and you.
VABills Posted October 15, 2010 Posted October 15, 2010 This sort of thinking is basically an attempt to legitimize a-holes. It's common on this board, and it's sheer sophistry. He's also a reporter, not an opinion columnist. Wow Dave, you're a Bills fan and an O's fan. How the hell do you wake up in the morning?
mattsox Posted October 15, 2010 Posted October 15, 2010 Yep, sucks when people become abusive and personally start attacking people. It just has come with the internet nowadays. Had my own personal attacks and had it happen to loved ones. Makes you a whole lot more critical of what you post on here.
VABills Posted October 15, 2010 Posted October 15, 2010 OMG incivility! Usually when one is fan of a team, they can at least spell the name of that team. Especially if it is only 6 letters.
BuffaloWings Posted October 15, 2010 Posted October 15, 2010 not a lot of civility on the board. We have people threatening physical violence and questioning people's right to be alive. Doesn't phase me, but I can see how some might be put off by it. I just consider the source and keep on keepin'on. Good point and I agree, but we're now in the day & age where people can take one simple criticism on a message board (albeit usually with less tact than anything Rex Ryan says) and turn it into a harassment lawsuit. People these days are either becoming more ultra-sensitive by the minute or are just looking for ways to make an extra buck.
dave mcbride Posted October 15, 2010 Posted October 15, 2010 Wow Dave, you're a Bills fan and an O's fan. How the hell do you wake up in the morning? Not an O's fan, actually. I'm just using them as an analogy to the Bills (bad team for a decade in a big money eastern division and with an erratic owner). I'm actually ... cringe ... a Yankees fan. Say what you will, but it offers some compensation for my Bills fandom. When he posts on this message board, he's just a guy with an opinion like me and you. That's hardly the point. The larger issue is rationalizing asinine behavior because, hey, it's the Internet, and anything goes.
VABills Posted October 15, 2010 Posted October 15, 2010 Not an O's fan, actually. I'm just using them as an analogy to the Bills (bad team for a decade in a big money eastern division and with an erratic owner). I'm actually ... cringe ... a Yankees fan. Say what you will, but it offers some compensation for my Bills fandom. Okay. But Yankees? You couldn't at least cheer for a team which doesn't represent the same crap that the *pats pull in the NFL?
dave mcbride Posted October 15, 2010 Posted October 15, 2010 Okay. But Yankees? You couldn't at least cheer for a team which doesn't represent the same crap that the *pats pull in the NFL? What can I say? I live in NY, they're always on, and my ten year old son - who is far better than I ever was at baseball - is a huge Yankees fan who wants to go to the occasional game. I can't justify it, however.
Bill from NYC Posted October 15, 2010 Posted October 15, 2010 This really is a shame. JW is a very good guy and obviously does have inside info that others are not privy to. akm makes some sense above, and the internet culture is something that is still probably in the developmental stage, or so one would think. Still, there is such a thing as going too far. Recently, a poster insulted the mother of another poster. Immediately thereafter, people were receptive to this, and actually were telling him great spots to get wings. I can't understand this, but maybe its because I am older than most posters. Wrt reporters, the beating they take is absurd. Writing isn't easy, and they are not obligated to pretend that the Bills do not suck.
Lori Posted October 15, 2010 Posted October 15, 2010 Some of this stuff really makes me wonder what portion of the posters here have never been on other Internet-based message boards. I suspect that John Wawrow posts here to get his name out there more, so that his writings reach a wider audience. Or maybe just for fun, who knows. Most people "bother" continuing to participate here because they enjoy the back and forth that these Internet-based message boards offer. "You are a dummy" has grown to mean "I disagree with the opinion that you expressed in your previous posting" on Internet-based message boards. This may offend your humanistic sensibilities, but it's just the nature of the beast. You can try to keep your corner of the Internet from changing to meet these modern communicative norms, but you'll just end up with smaller debate amongst a hold-out crew of like-minded folks. That is a choice to be made by the owners of this domain, but successful Internet-based message boards and their posters have adapted to this style. I'd like to think that after 12 years and with more than 10,000 registered users, The Stadium Wall would qualify as successful. And since you were replying to me, I've been here (and on several other boards) since the mid-'90s. And suggesting that, because John isn't a "columnist", his pieces are devoid of opinion rings hollow with me. So, I'll simply say that I disagree with the opinion that you expressed in your previous posting. Every writer injects their own style (which is generally colored by their opinions and life experiences) into their work, and people may or may not enjoy it and may or may not criticize it. I just generally dislike the whole notion of, "I was personally attacked for posting my opinions on an Internet-based message board! It isn't worth it to post here because my feelings were hurt!". Frankly, it isn't "worth" anything to post on a message board such as this. It's just a fun thing that we do to engender debate among a community of individuals sharing a similar interest. If you have any experience on such message boards, you should fully expect that you will catch some heat when you post things that others disagree with. You should expect criticism in the manner that it is generally delivered in this medium - with a bit of bite. You should also expect a bit stronger bite if you separate yourself from the "regular" contributors by positioning yourself as an authority or give yourself a bit of "celebrity". To not expect that to place a target on yourself for extra criticism seems foolish. Just my opinion, hopefully in a style that doesn't violate the Terms of Service To think that anyone deserves to be attacked merely because of their job description is what seems foolish to me. As for John and Tim "choosing" to post under their own names, using a pseudonym to write about a subject they cover is simply not an option. It would be unethical at best -- and in fact, under the current ESPN social-media policy, it might be a fireable offense.
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