The Marv Drafts

[first_and_ten]

After reading the thread on how 17 of 22 starters on the Steelers were drafted by the Steelers, your point is well taken. Nice post.

Yes, a very nice post. However I don't put the blame on Marv. It belongs squarely on Ralph Wilson who again went on the cheap and hired Marv. Ralph had a bad experience with Tom Donohue and reacted with the Marv Hiring. A comfortable and cheap decision. Ralph does not want to pay for top notch football people. He wants cheap yes men. This mess is Ralph's doing.

[JPS]

Not quite. Marv's drafts, the result of "consensus" were horrid. The mark of a decent starter is whether they can earn a contract extension or win big in UFA. Whitner won't be re-signed and neither will Ellison. Williams is high-energy, but part of a defense leading the league in rushing yards allowed.

 

It's not a crusade like it was 2-3 years ago for me to say those drafts, particularly when viewed with who they missed picking, were brutal. They wouldn't be rebuilding if they had 3 legitimate NFL starters from each draft.

I think Whitner will be re-signed. Regardless of what you think about him, he's better at his position than Kelsay is at LB...and Kelsay got his...

[TheBows]

Marv simply wasn't a real GM. Good man, great coach, excellent leader of men. Not a GM - never should have had the job.

 

He said he wasn't cut out for it when he left, didn't really like the job. He's more of a general on the field type.

[Ray]

Marv's drafts did not kill the team although certainly could have been better. His drafts were '06 and '07 and he left after that....'08 was not his draft. There are decent/good NFL players from '06. I agree with those that have said M Lynch is a good back. Both he and K Williams have gone to Pro Bowls and he brought in F Jackson as well.

The poor drafts have gone back to J Butler as his last draft could have been the worst draft in the past 12 years for the Bills. Donahoe's were no great shakes either.

I think what has definitely hurt as well is the turnover....every few years you have someone with a different philosophy.

You could argue as sad as it is Marv has been the best "GM" in the past 10 years for the team....his two years were the most successful (that is a sad indictment on this frnachise).

[todd]

Ugh.

 

I wouldn't say they killed the team, but those drafts might have been the final bullet.

 

I like Marv. I think he's a quality guy & coach, but holy crap he botched those drafts. Also, his collaborative methodology allowed DJ too much input into the draft. I've heard that DJ had more say about the draft than people suspect, in particular selecting all those corners and then Maybin.

 

After doing some research, I thought about it, and really Marv was only in control for one full offseason. Hired in January 2006, he had 3 months before the 2006 draft which had already been scouted for. 2007 was all Marv, and considering he was the GM for that season, we'll say the scouting for the 2008 draft was also all on him.

I'll list the picks we made, and the ones who are gone will be in parentheses.

 

2006: Whitner, McCargo, Youboty, (Simpson), Williams, (Butler), Ellison, (Pennington), (Merz)

2007: (Lynch), Poz, (Edwards), (Wright), (Wendling), (Schouman), (Ah You)

2008: McKelvin, (Hardy), (Ellis), Corner, (Fine), (Bowen), (Omon), Bell, Steve Johnson, (Cox)

 

The 2006 draft can be called solid. They may not be the best players in the league, but Whitner, Williams and Ellison are all starters (Ellison generally due to injury, but still he's started more games than he's sat). But come on? 1 pick left from 2007? 4 from 2008? 5 out of 17 picks? That's not how a team is built.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I think Whitner will be re-signed. Regardless of what you think about him, he's better at his position than Kelsay is at LB...and Kelsay got his...

There is a big difference though. There are other NFL people that think Whitner is a solid player. Contrastingly, there was only 1 team in the NFL that was willing to make Kelsay the highest paid 31 year old OLB in the NFL.

 

Also, the player himself factors heavily into a re-sign. Do we really think Whitner is happy to be a Buffalo Bill? Does someone that is excited about where he is tweet about how embarrassing it is to play for a laughingstock? I'd say the chances are excellent that Donte is going to test free agency and going to be the Bills latest one contract and done secondary player.

[Hplarrm]

I think the answer to the question as to whether the Marv drafts killed the Bills is

 

Emphatically NO.

 

This is not a defense of the clearly demonstrable lack of results provided by the players Marv drafted. The answer is emphatically no because even a fatal wound dealt to an already dead body does not kill it.

 

The Bills as a team were already dead by the time Marv was put in charge. His leading the team when they added Jauron merely played with a rotting corpse of a team that was dealt mortal and ultimately fatal blows before Marv was wheeled in out of retirement and the HOF to prop up Mr. Ralph's team (and as with any indictment of Marv, TD, Butler or Polian the buck stops with the big guy who writes the checks.

 

My sense of the actual answer to the question of what killed the Bills is:

 

Wound 1: Mr. Ralph fires Polian- A grievous wound as the man most responsible for assembling the great teams of the early 90s was let go by Mr. Ralph apparently due to some perceived snipe by Polian at a member of Mr. Ralph's family. A bad football move but understandable as ragging on the boss's family is generally not tolerated. Polian is a great football guy (and proved himself to be one of the best by not only assembling the Bills but winning an SB with Indy. Serious but not a killer as shown by the team getting back to the SB post Polian with a team which was clearly Butler's (which ironically is also a tribute to Polian since he hired Butler but this was a clear post-Polian team).

 

Wound 2: Butler leaves the team high and dry and Mr. Ralph justifiably but with horrible results fires Bum's kid for giving up publicly while the Bills were still mathematically in it (a horrible lesson was pointed out when an Indy team with the same record as when Wade-O said No mas! made the playoffs.

 

Still this was a mortal wound due to the manner in which Butler left and it clearly involved Mr. Ralph as a prime participant in this debacle even though the actual torching of the Bills body was caused by Butler (who not only refused to re-negotiate during the season and then summarily left for sunny CA taking some Bills quality with him, but arguably tanked his last draft with the selection of bust Erik Flowers as his #1.

 

Leaving in the manner he did was actually the mortal wound in my book that signaled the death of great teams of the 90s. Again, there is plenty of blame to honestly go around here (Butler only escapes a lot of derision here because he is dead) but the buck not only stops at Mr. Ralph's door as the owner but he clearly meddled in decisions which the pro football guys should have made which he messed up (one might argue to what extent he is culpable for errors like the dumb contract given to RJ and the way the Flutie deal was set-up so that when he played as we hoped we were then forced to extend him and still have an untenable cap hit for the QB position. The fact is only Mr. Ralph could make the handshake deal- which publicly ignored the salary cap and it is my guess part of the reason his HOF honor got stalled- with Jimbo which was a blatant miscalculation of how much he had left as a player.

 

This mortal wound is on Mr. Ralph.

 

Wound 3: You actually have to give the guy in charge some credit because even though the dismissal of Butler/Wade was a fatal wound (compounded by M. Ralph tilting at windmills trying to keep the last year of Wade's contract even though the Bills like it or not signed the entire deal they fired him from- the canning may have been justified after Wade-O gave up before the fat lady sang but still the Bills owed Phillips under the contract Mr. Ralph signed).

 

The hiring of TD was a very nice move as he was a man who clearly had the requisite football knowledge for a GM and he was available having been booted from Pitts. He made great use of his last year still under contract by getting a job with the media which allowed him to still collect Pitts money but still be in the game collecting info and building contacts on someone else's dime). A great get in a horrible situation after the Butler mortal wound.

 

However, though Mr. Ralph did a nice job of applying the paddles to shock a body without a heartbeat, he still messed up dealing with the dead body by completely failing to manage TD properly as an employee. Perhaps stung by the duplicity of Butler he simply turned over the car keys to TD giving him unprecedented power. TD then made some pretty outstanding deals (his stealing a 1st from Arthur Blank for Peerless was negotiating art) but he seemed to still be exercising the demons brought to him in getting fired by a guy he hired in Pitts. He hired an HC, GW, who in retrospect was clearly not ready for primetime. He then seemed to exercise power in a manner designed to protect himself from not getting Cowhered again rather than building a winner.

 

TD used the paddles to restore a heartbeat to a dead body but seemed to have such fun restarting the heart he then put the paddles on the brain of the corpse and got canned for shocking the body again.

 

Wound Four: Marv comes out of retirement. His drafts were actually not bad in the immediate term (Whitner for example filled a clear need for this team which had been left by the TD reign of error and proved to be the best safety taken in this draft even though he was the second safety taken, but he turned out to be simply a good starter and not a Pro Bowl quality player- likewise, the McCargo pick was a clear miss by Marv but this only emphasizes that their much later pick of Williams was an impressive piece of work).

 

Still despite a nice start, a draft which produced nice starter work from picks such as Simpson, Ellison, and the afore mentioned Williams did not have any staying power.

 

However, I would claim clearly that this Marv draft did not kill the Bills because the body was already twice if not thrice dead due to Mr. Ralph proving to be a poor manager of employees such as TD, Butler, and Polian.

 

You honestly need to give Mr. Ralph credit for making a great buy at a cheap price for the Bills and holding this asset while its value sky-rocketed. He could have left and he did not and we have to be grateful for that. However, along with this honest praise must come honest indictment as his poor management killed the great 90s Bills team.

[....lybob]

2002 - Bills take Mike Williams shocking many who think Bryant Mckinnie the #1 OT

 

2003- Bills take Willis McGahee even though his leg was almost torn off and they had Travis Henry- not a great draft as out of the three most wanted players (Dallas Clark, Boss Bailey, and William Joseph) only Clark went on to have a good career.

 

2004- Bills take Lee Evans and use our 2nd and next years 1st to trade back into the 1st round with Dallas and take J.P Losman- a lot of people were wishing for Tommy Harris, Vince Wilfork, or Will Smith when the Bills took Evans and J.P. Losman was on nobody's radar we thought the move up was for Wilfork but that has never been confirmed. Looking back I don't think Evans was a bad pick even though I prefer taking the good big man when possible, but there is no doubt that Losman was a very expensive reach.

 

2005- no 1st, Parrish in the 2nd Kevin Everett 3rd- I would have liked Vince Jackson but in reality Parrish contributed more than Jackson for his first three seasons because of his awesome return ability and Kevin Everett was just very unlucky and never got a chance to show his full ability.

 

2006- the killer- Whitner over Ngata trading up for McCargo who was thought by many as a 3rd-4th round value.

 

2007- Lynch, Poz, and Edwards- didn't work out but I can't really criticize I thought they were all reasonable picks.

 

2008. -Mckelvin - two problems 1. do you really take a CB when an OT like Clady is there and 2. if you're set on taking a CB why McKelvin over Cromartie, at the time we were looking for a larger CB to face Moss.

 

2009 - Another killer Aaron Maybin just a horrible pick - the rest of the draft seemed pretty good

 

2010- Really didn't like the Spiller pick but who knows

 

in summery a history off bad drafting combined with poor luck

[EastRochBillsfan]

Tom Modrak pulled the names off ofthe draft board from 2006-2009.

 

He was overruled on a few choices, but those drafts are his. I don't want to absolve Marv for his failure but you need to understand these drafts were Tom Modrak's doing.

And you know this HOW? If only we actually knew who picked what we'd really know if Modrak should be canned or not.

[Buftex]

2002 - Bills take Mike Williams shocking many who think Bryant Mckinnie the #1 OT

 

2003- Bills take Willis McGahee even though his leg was almost torn off and they had Travis Henry- not a great draft as out of the three most wanted players (Dallas Clark, Boss Bailey, and William Joseph) only Clark went on to have a good career.

 

2004- Bills take Lee Evans and use our 2nd and next years 1st to trade back into the 1st round with Dallas and take J.P Losman- a lot of people were wishing for Tommy Harris, Vince Wilfork, or Will Smith when the Bills took Evans and J.P. Losman was on nobody's radar we thought the move up was for Wilfork but that has never been confirmed. Looking back I don't think Evans was a bad pick even though I prefer taking the good big man when possible, but there is no doubt that Losman was a very expensive reach.

 

2005- no 1st, Parrish in the 2nd Kevin Everett 3rd- I would have liked Vince Jackson but in reality Parrish contributed more than Jackson for his first three seasons because of his awesome return ability and Kevin Everett was just very unlucky and never got a chance to show his full ability.

 

2006- the killer- Whitner over Ngata trading up for McCargo who was thought by many as a 3rd-4th round value.

 

2007- Lynch, Poz, and Edwards- didn't work out but I can't really criticize I thought they were all reasonable picks.

 

2008. -Mckelvin - two problems 1. do you really take a CB when an OT like Clady is there and 2. if you're set on taking a CB why McKelvin over Cromartie, at the time we were looking for a larger CB to face Moss.

 

2009 - Another killer Aaron Maybin just a horrible pick - the rest of the draft seemed pretty good

 

2010- Really didn't like the Spiller pick but who knows

 

in summery a history off bad drafting combined with poor luck

 

 

 

Donohoe definitely took some risks early in the draft, which didn't pay off, but the Bills drafted much better, in the later rounds, back then. Also, while everyone blasts the McGahee pick (and there is valid criticism to be made), there was a lot going on, behind the scenes, at the time, with Travis Henry that we weren't privy to, at the time. He was a talented, hard playing back for the Bills, but he had lots of off the field issues. TD gambled that he could get another year out of him, before he got suspended or killed, and used that time to let McGahee get back into football shape. McGahee has had a decent pro career, but was viewed by many (TD included) as a "once in a generation" kind of player. I don't think it was as bad a pick as some make it out to be. McGahee was a bonehead, but didn't have the off-field baggage that Henry had been collecting since his rookie year.

 

One player (a mediocre one at that) left on the squad from the 2007 draft? That is just awful. Not blaming Marv (see my earlier post in this thread) but there has been a lack of focus since TD left. McKelvin, I think, when all is said and done, will be the best player to come out of the "Marv Era" drafts...but if things continue as they have been, some other team will benefit from his play, once his original contract expires.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Buftex

[Buffalo Barbarian]

After reading the thread on how 17 of 22 starters on the Steelers were drafted by the Steelers, your point is well taken. Nice post.

 

Here is praying that Whaley can bring some of that Pittsburg mojo with him.

[The Senator]

I think the answer to the question as to whether the Marv drafts killed the Bills is

 

Emphatically NO.

 

This is not a defense of the clearly demonstrable lack of results provided by the players Marv drafted. The answer is emphatically no because even a fatal wound dealt to an already dead body does not kill it.

 

The Bills as a team were already dead by the time Marv was put in charge. His leading the team when they added Jauron merely played with a rotting corpse of a team that was dealt mortal and ultimately fatal blows before Marv was wheeled in out of retirement and the HOF to prop up Mr. Ralph's team (and as with any indictment of Marv, TD, Butler or Polian the buck stops with the big guy who writes the checks.

 

My sense of the actual answer to the question of what killed the Bills is:

 

Wound 1: Mr. Ralph fires Polian- A grievous wound as the man most responsible for assembling the great teams of the early 90s was let go by Mr. Ralph apparently due to some perceived snipe by Polian at a member of Mr. Ralph's family. A bad football move but understandable as ragging on the boss's family is generally not tolerated. Polian is a great football guy (and proved himself to be one of the best by not only assembling the Bills but winning an SB with Indy. Serious but not a killer as shown by the team getting back to the SB post Polian with a team which was clearly Butler's (which ironically is also a tribute to Polian since he hired Butler but this was a clear post-Polian team).

 

Wound 2: Butler leaves the team high and dry and Mr. Ralph justifiably but with horrible results fires Bum's kid for giving up publicly while the Bills were still mathematically in it (a horrible lesson was pointed out when an Indy team with the same record as when Wade-O said No mas! made the playoffs.

 

Still this was a mortal wound due to the manner in which Butler left and it clearly involved Mr. Ralph as a prime participant in this debacle even though the actual torching of the Bills body was caused by Butler (who not only refused to re-negotiate during the season and then summarily left for sunny CA taking some Bills quality with him, but arguably tanked his last draft with the selection of bust Erik Flowers as his #1.

 

Leaving in the manner he did was actually the mortal wound in my book that signaled the death of great teams of the 90s. Again, there is plenty of blame to honestly go around here (Butler only escapes a lot of derision here because he is dead) but the buck not only stops at Mr. Ralph's door as the owner but he clearly meddled in decisions which the pro football guys should have made which he messed up (one might argue to what extent he is culpable for errors like the dumb contract given to RJ and the way the Flutie deal was set-up so that when he played as we hoped we were then forced to extend him and still have an untenable cap hit for the QB position. The fact is only Mr. Ralph could make the handshake deal- which publicly ignored the salary cap and it is my guess part of the reason his HOF honor got stalled- with Jimbo which was a blatant miscalculation of how much he had left as a player.

 

This mortal wound is on Mr. Ralph.

 

Wound 3: You actually have to give the guy in charge some credit because even though the dismissal of Butler/Wade was a fatal wound (compounded by M. Ralph tilting at windmills trying to keep the last year of Wade's contract even though the Bills like it or not signed the entire deal they fired him from- the canning may have been justified after Wade-O gave up before the fat lady sang but still the Bills owed Phillips under the contract Mr. Ralph signed).

 

The hiring of TD was a very nice move as he was a man who clearly had the requisite football knowledge for a GM and he was available having been booted from Pitts. He made great use of his last year still under contract by getting a job with the media which allowed him to still collect Pitts money but still be in the game collecting info and building contacts on someone else's dime). A great get in a horrible situation after the Butler mortal wound.

 

However, though Mr. Ralph did a nice job of applying the paddles to shock a body without a heartbeat, he still messed up dealing with the dead body by completely failing to manage TD properly as an employee. Perhaps stung by the duplicity of Butler he simply turned over the car keys to TD giving him unprecedented power. TD then made some pretty outstanding deals (his stealing a 1st from Arthur Blank for Peerless was negotiating art) but he seemed to still be exercising the demons brought to him in getting fired by a guy he hired in Pitts. He hired an HC, GW, who in retrospect was clearly not ready for primetime. He then seemed to exercise power in a manner designed to protect himself from not getting Cowhered again rather than building a winner.

 

TD used the paddles to restore a heartbeat to a dead body but seemed to have such fun restarting the heart he then put the paddles on the brain of the corpse and got canned for shocking the body again.

 

Wound Four: Marv comes out of retirement. His drafts were actually not bad in the immediate term (Whitner for example filled a clear need for this team which had been left by the TD reign of error and proved to be the best safety taken in this draft even though he was the second safety taken, but he turned out to be simply a good starter and not a Pro Bowl quality player- likewise, the McCargo pick was a clear miss by Marv but this only emphasizes that their much later pick of Williams was an impressive piece of work).

 

Still despite a nice start, a draft which produced nice starter work from picks such as Simpson, Ellison, and the afore mentioned Williams did not have any staying power.

 

However, I would claim clearly that this Marv draft did not kill the Bills because the body was already twice if not thrice dead due to Mr. Ralph proving to be a poor manager of employees such as TD, Butler, and Polian.

 

You honestly need to give Mr. Ralph credit for making a great buy at a cheap price for the Bills and holding this asset while its value sky-rocketed. He could have left and he did not and we have to be grateful for that. However, along with this honest praise must come honest indictment as his poor management killed the great 90s Bills team.

fixed.

[nick in* england]

I have been saying for years now that this is not an individual problem (the GM - whoever it is) but a cultural/organisational problem in the Front Office. It needs cleaning out. Talent evaluation by the Buffalo Bills has been exceptionally poor in the last 10-12 years.

[Big Buffalo]

After doing some research, I thought about it, and really Marv was only in control for one full offseason. Hired in January 2006, he had 3 months before the 2006 draft which had already been scouted for. 2007 was all Marv, and considering he was the GM for that season, we'll say the scouting for the 2008 draft was also all on him.

I'll list the picks we made, and the ones who are gone will be in parentheses.

 

2006: Whitner, McCargo, Youboty, (Simpson), Williams, (Butler), Ellison, (Pennington), (Merz)

2007: (Lynch), Poz, (Edwards), (Wright), (Wendling), (Schouman), (Ah You)

2008: McKelvin, (Hardy), (Ellis), Corner, (Fine), (Bowen), (Omon), Bell, Steve Johnson, (Cox)

 

The 2006 draft can be called solid. They may not be the best players in the league, but Whitner, Williams and Ellison are all starters (Ellison generally due to injury, but still he's started more games than he's sat). But come on? 1 pick left from 2007? 4 from 2008? 5 out of 17 picks? That's not how a team is built.

Just think about the players available at those draft spots were we chose. Nata and Orakpo just to name a few.

[Sisyphean Bills]

One could argue that the 2 drafts Marv presided over in 06 and 07 are actually better than the draft classes of Donahoe's last 4 years. The 06 and 07 drafts both yielded 1 Pro Bowl player, whereas there were none from 02-05. The 07 draft class is looking worse now as the new regime jettisons players from the draft obviously.

 

A strong argument could also be made that our best draft of the millenium was the one before Tom Modrak was brought in, namely the class of 2001. Coincidence? Given the abundance of data from 2002 onwards, probably not. Building through the draft on the advice of this guy, given the track record, could easily be another 10 years of wandering in the wilderness.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Sisyphean Bills

[spartacus]

And you know this HOW? If only we actually knew who picked what we'd really know if Modrak should be canned or not.

Bills fans are the most gullible in the world

 

 

Only in their fantasy world does the Director of College Scouting have no responsibility or accountability for 10 years of failed drafts.

 

Yeah- at the end of each year, he spins the story that he wanted to pick the pro bowl player each year, but he was outvoted by some unnamed mystery man in the organization.

 

OK- only Bills fans would buy that self-serving crap

 

You would think after the first few years of such abuse, he might get pissed and leave the Bills.

 

 

 

 

 

[BillsVet]

I think Whitner will be re-signed. Regardless of what you think about him, he's better at his position than Kelsay is at LB...and Kelsay got his...

 

This is a sad statement. DW is easily replaceable, and being the 8th overall pick he's as close to being a bust without actually being one.

 

Marv's drafts were the result of consensus, which translates to compromise. Why this team decided to rebuild its secondary before the OL and DL was beyond me. I can excuse them for holding onto JP in 06 and not drafting Cutler (like Modrak claimed he wanted to do) but there was no reason to draft DW. I was blasted for having the audacity to note that Marv had no NFL experience handling the highest ranking position on the football side of the house. And now 4 years later it's clear that while his intention to replicate the Polian years was nice, he didn't have Butler, Smith, or Adams to help him make decisions. In their place he had Modrak, Guy, and Jauron who won't go down as much beyond mediocre talent evaluators.

 

Also find it funny that Modrak's survived through 4 different GM's. Maybe he (like Overdorf) can't be fired without the owner's personal consent?