JM57 Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 After doing some research, I thought about it, and really Marv was only in control for one full offseason. Hired in January 2006, he had 3 months before the 2006 draft which had already been scouted for. 2007 was all Marv, and considering he was the GM for that season, we'll say the scouting for the 2008 draft was also all on him. I'll list the picks we made, and the ones who are gone will be in parentheses. 2006: Whitner, McCargo, Youboty, (Simpson), Williams, (Butler), Ellison, (Pennington), (Merz) 2007: (Lynch), Poz, (Edwards), (Wright), (Wendling), (Schouman), (Ah You) 2008: McKelvin, (Hardy), (Ellis), Corner, (Fine), (Bowen), (Omon), Bell, Steve Johnson, (Cox) The 2006 draft can be called solid. They may not be the best players in the league, but Whitner, Williams and Ellison are all starters (Ellison generally due to injury, but still he's started more games than he's sat). But come on? 1 pick left from 2007? 4 from 2008? 5 out of 17 picks? That's not how a team is built.
Green Lightning Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 After reading the thread on how 17 of 22 starters on the Steelers were drafted by the Steelers, your point is well taken. Nice post.
b stein 22 Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 After doing some research, I thought about it, and really Marv was only in control for one full offseason. Hired in January 2006, he had 3 months before the 2006 draft which had already been scouted for. 2007 was all Marv, and considering he was the GM for that season, we'll say the scouting for the 2008 draft was also all on him. I'll list the picks we made, and the ones who are gone will be in parentheses. 2006: Whitner, McCargo, Youboty, (Simpson), Williams, (Butler), Ellison, (Pennington), (Merz) 2007: (Lynch), Poz, (Edwards), (Wright), (Wendling), (Schouman), (Ah You) 2008: McKelvin, (Hardy), (Ellis), Corner, (Fine), (Bowen), (Omon), Bell, Steve Johnson, (Cox) The 2006 draft can be called solid. They may not be the best players in the league, but Whitner, Williams and Ellison are all starters (Ellison generally due to injury, but still he's started more games than he's sat). But come on? 1 pick left from 2007? 4 from 2008? 5 out of 17 picks? That's not how a team is built. Thats why Marv was the coach and not the GM in the early nineties. He also brought us Mr. Statue which did not end up great.
BillsVet Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 After doing some research, I thought about it, and really Marv was only in control for one full offseason. Hired in January 2006, he had 3 months before the 2006 draft which had already been scouted for. 2007 was all Marv, and considering he was the GM for that season, we'll say the scouting for the 2008 draft was also all on him. I'll list the picks we made, and the ones who are gone will be in parentheses. 2006: Whitner, McCargo, Youboty, (Simpson), Williams, (Butler), Ellison, (Pennington), (Merz) 2007: (Lynch), Poz, (Edwards), (Wright), (Wendling), (Schouman), (Ah You) 2008: McKelvin, (Hardy), (Ellis), Corner, (Fine), (Bowen), (Omon), Bell, Steve Johnson, (Cox) The 2006 draft can be called solid. They may not be the best players in the league, but Whitner, Williams and Ellison are all starters (Ellison generally due to injury, but still he's started more games than he's sat). But come on? 1 pick left from 2007? 4 from 2008? 5 out of 17 picks? That's not how a team is built. Not quite. Marv's drafts, the result of "consensus" were horrid. The mark of a decent starter is whether they can earn a contract extension or win big in UFA. Whitner won't be re-signed and neither will Ellison. Williams is high-energy, but part of a defense leading the league in rushing yards allowed. It's not a crusade like it was 2-3 years ago for me to say those drafts, particularly when viewed with who they missed picking, were brutal. They wouldn't be rebuilding if they had 3 legitimate NFL starters from each draft.
Punch Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 Curiously, when asked to comment the week following the dismissal, Marv said the Bills made a mistake in firing Jauron. If he was willing to defend his lone head coaching hire I wonder how he would defend these abysmal drafts? By defending Jauron he surely couldn't blame the lack of talent on coaching.
Bill from NYC Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 The 2006 draft can be called solid. They may not be the best players in the league, but Whitner, Williams and Ellison are all starters (Ellison generally due to injury, but still he's started more games than he's sat). I agree. As a matter of fact Rosie O'Donnell can be called a bathing beauty.
Orton's Arm Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 After doing some research, I thought about it, and really Marv was only in control for one full offseason. Hired in January 2006, he had 3 months before the 2006 draft which had already been scouted for. 2007 was all Marv, and considering he was the GM for that season, we'll say the scouting for the 2008 draft was also all on him. I'll list the picks we made, and the ones who are gone will be in parentheses. 2006: Whitner, McCargo, Youboty, (Simpson), Williams, (Butler), Ellison, (Pennington), (Merz) 2007: (Lynch), Poz, (Edwards), (Wright), (Wendling), (Schouman), (Ah You) 2008: McKelvin, (Hardy), (Ellis), Corner, (Fine), (Bowen), (Omon), Bell, Steve Johnson, (Cox) The 2006 draft can be called solid. They may not be the best players in the league, but Whitner, Williams and Ellison are all starters (Ellison generally due to injury, but still he's started more games than he's sat). But come on? 1 pick left from 2007? 4 from 2008? 5 out of 17 picks? That's not how a team is built. I tend to put the blame for the 2006 draft on Marv. You make the point that most of the scouting had been done prior to Marv's arrival in January of 2006. But the general manager's job largely consists of assimilating the scouting reports he's provided, and developing a gut feel reaction for each of the players under consideration. Three months seems like enough time to do a pretty solid job of that--especially for the first round picks. Besides that, it's not as though he replaced the scouting staff after the 2006 draft was over. So if the problem with the 2006 draft was bad scouting, Marv still deserves blame for having failed to upgrade the scouts at any point during his time as GM. Only one success story emerged from the 2006 draft: Kyle Williams. Brad Butler could have been a success story had he not prematurely retired. As for Whitner: he's typically good in run support and good at tackling; but not a guy you'd want in one-on-one coverage against a good tight end. Squandering the eighth overall pick on a player with his limitations was among the first and greatest mistakes of Marv's regime. Likewise, only one success story emerged from the 2007 draft: Poz. And even there it was only a partial success. Whitner, Poz, and Kyle Williams aren't a lot to show for Marv's two drafts as GM. It's a little early to evaluate the 2008 draft. McKelvin will need to become a consistent starter and a shutdown corner for him to be considered a success story. He also needs to avoid going first-contract-and-out; though if he does go first-contract-and-out the blame will hardly be Marv's. The other two potential success stories from that draft are Bell and Steve Johnson; though it's far too early to determine what kinds of careers they'll have. In a few years it should be clearer whether the 2008 draft was a success or a failure. But to the degree that it was either, I'm not sure how much of the credit or blame should go to Marv. That draft didn't happen on his watch. Those who did the scouting for the 2008 draft had been hired before Marv's time as GM. The only real indirect influence he had on the 2008 draft was the selection of Jauron as head coach.
Zulu Cthulhu Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 And out of the 10 remaining on the team, only 3 (k williams, poz, mckelvin) would get any sort of real playing time on any other team. I don't buy whitner starting on another team unless they were ravaged by injuries. Tack on a half point for Butler and we got 3.5 guys that matter out of 3 years of drafts. Not gonna cut it.
flopagamo Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 Marv simply wasn't a real GM. Good man, great coach, excellent leader of men. Not a GM - never should have had the job.
Dawgg Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 After doing some research, I thought about it, and really Marv was only in control for one full offseason. Hired in January 2006, he had 3 months before the 2006 draft which had already been scouted for. 2007 was all Marv, and considering he was the GM for that season, we'll say the scouting for the 2008 draft was also all on him. I'll list the picks we made, and the ones who are gone will be in parentheses. 2006: Whitner, McCargo, Youboty, (Simpson), Williams, (Butler), Ellison, (Pennington), (Merz) 2007: (Lynch), Poz, (Edwards), (Wright), (Wendling), (Schouman), (Ah You) 2008: McKelvin, (Hardy), (Ellis), Corner, (Fine), (Bowen), (Omon), Bell, Steve Johnson, (Cox) The 2006 draft can be called solid. They may not be the best players in the league, but Whitner, Williams and Ellison are all starters (Ellison generally due to injury, but still he's started more games than he's sat). But come on? 1 pick left from 2007? 4 from 2008? 5 out of 17 picks? That's not how a team is built. I was pointing this out all along and was chastised by the homers on this board
justnzane Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 Not quite. Marv's drafts, the result of "consensus" were horrid. The mark of a decent starter is whether they can earn a contract extension or win big in UFA. Whitner won't be re-signed and neither will Ellison. Williams is high-energy, but part of a defense leading the league in rushing yards allowed. It's not a crusade like it was 2-3 years ago for me to say those drafts, particularly when viewed with who they missed picking, were brutal. They wouldn't be rebuilding if they had 3 legitimate NFL starters from each draft. really? I think he is one of the few pieces of the puzzle worth keeping. His play this season has surpassed his previous seasons. Of course, he is getting a ton of tackles because the guys in front of him can't do their jobs, but with an average safety, the Bills rush D would be even worse. The '06 draft was a decent draft as it did produce whitner, williams, butler, and ellison. While Ellison is not a true starter, he has been servicable. However, you can't fault Marv for a player retiring prematurely to become a politician (Butler). Let's face it, Brad Butler was 20 times the lineman that Cornell Green is, and it shows by the amount of screwups Green commits compared to the rest of the line. The '07 and '08 drafts didn't pan out as well and they are a bigger part of why the team is in the straits that they are in. But some of this cannot be faulted on the scouting dept. as it is the job of the coaches to actually develop these talents. Must I remind you that pre-concussion Trent Edwards looked like a legit NFL QB. Had Dick and co. actually did their jobs as coaches during the camps and practices more players would have developed as opposed to having some aversion to contact and the weight room.
Spiderweb Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 Thats why Marv was the coach and not the GM in the early nineties. He also brought us Mr. Statue which did not end up great. Mr Statue? That is universally reserved for Bledso, and no, Marv did not bring him in. That was Donahoe.
Buftex Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 really? I think he is one of the few pieces of the puzzle worth keeping. His play this season has surpassed his previous seasons. Of course, he is getting a ton of tackles because the guys in front of him can't do their jobs, but with an average safety, the Bills rush D would be even worse. The '06 draft was a decent draft as it did produce whitner, williams, butler, and ellison. While Ellison is not a true starter, he has been servicable. However, you can't fault Marv for a player retiring prematurely to become a politician (Butler). Let's face it, Brad Butler was 20 times the lineman that Cornell Green is, and it shows by the amount of screwups Green commits compared to the rest of the line. The '07 and '08 drafts didn't pan out as well and they are a bigger part of why the team is in the straits that they are in. But some of this cannot be faulted on the scouting dept. as it is the job of the coaches to actually develop these talents. Must I remind you that pre-concussion Trent Edwards looked like a legit NFL QB. Had Dick and co. actually did their jobs as coaches during the camps and practices more players would have developed as opposed to having some aversion to contact and the weight room. That is it. Right there. I honestly can't think of a single player, other than maybe Jason Peters, who turned into a better football player during their time in Buffalo. Guys come in as projects, collect a paycheck for a few years, and leave the same player they were. Is it possible that every single guy the Bills drafted during those years was a bust? Or, is it that they weren't developed?
NaPolian8693 Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 The whole thing just stinks. I have such fond memories of Marv, and always will, but the GM debacle tarnishes the legacy.
Buftex Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 The whole thing just stinks. I have such fond memories of Marv, and always will, but the GM debacle tarnishes the legacy. I hear you. However, his image isn't tarnished with me. I thought Marv as GM was a disaster from the moment it was announced, and I think Marv realized it too. I give him some credit for stepping down. I also don't think he was as directly responsible for the drafts as a GM is with a typical NFL team. I really do think he was just a face to put on the franchise, one that would evoke better times for the restless fan base. I seem to remember, upon his resignation, Marv said some things that indicated that he was less than thrilled with the working situation. He defended some of the miscues during his tenure, by saying, something to the effect of "We tried to do some things, while staying in the framework of what the franchise was capable of. The realitys for the Buffalo Bills are not necessarily the same as those of the 31 other NFL teams." He seemed to indicate, to me, that it was unrealistic to expect a lot, in terms of a quick turnaround, given the parameters put on the team, by the owner.
Sisyphean Bills Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 (edited) really? I think he is one of the few pieces of the puzzle worth keeping. His play this season has surpassed his previous seasons. Of course, he is getting a ton of tackles because the guys in front of him can't do their jobs, but with an average safety, the Bills rush D would be even worse. Whitner may be tweeting and pedicuring his way off the team. They might keep him at the right price (assuming he is willing), but it's not exactly that he is irreplaceable. Edited October 13, 2010 by Sisyphean Bills
Gabe Northern Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 Tom Modrak pulled the names off ofthe draft board from 2006-2009. He was overruled on a few choices, but those drafts are his. I don't want to absolve Marv for his failure but you need to understand these drafts were Tom Modrak's doing.
bills_fan_in_raleigh Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 Marv simply wasn't a real GM. Good man, great coach, excellent leader of men. Not a GM - never should have had the job. He was really only a good leader of men, he was able to get the guys to perform but as a coach he was outcoached in all 4 SBs so hard to accept the "great coach" comment
BillsPhan Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 After doing some research, I thought about it, and really Marv was only in control for one full offseason. Hired in January 2006, he had 3 months before the 2006 draft which had already been scouted for. 2007 was all Marv, and considering he was the GM for that season, we'll say the scouting for the 2008 draft was also all on him. I'll list the picks we made, and the ones who are gone will be in parentheses. 2006: Whitner, McCargo, Youboty, (Simpson), Williams, (Butler), Ellison, (Pennington), (Merz) 2007: (Lynch), Poz, (Edwards), (Wright), (Wendling), (Schouman), (Ah You) 2008: McKelvin, (Hardy), (Ellis), Corner, (Fine), (Bowen), (Omon), Bell, Steve Johnson, (Cox) The 2006 draft can be called solid. They may not be the best players in the league, but Whitner, Williams and Ellison are all starters (Ellison generally due to injury, but still he's started more games than he's sat). But come on? 1 pick left from 2007? 4 from 2008? 5 out of 17 picks? That's not how a team is built. Yes, Marv's drafts sucked. One break we need to give him however, was Brad freakin' Butler retiring heading into the prime of his career. Some out here may say "so what"? I say the guy could have been an excellent right tackle or even left tackle down the line....we'll never know. He did a good job at guard as a 6th round draft choice (or was he a 5th rounder, I don't remember?), and he was going to be moved out to right tackle when he made the unbelievable decison to quit football altogether. No GM could be "blamed" for that one. As far as the players Marv drafted who didn't retire, most of them should have never even started NFL careers. He was really only a good leader of men, he was able to get the guys to perform but as a coach he was outcoached in all 4 SBs so hard to accept the "great coach" comment That's too bad that you don't accept the "great coach" comment. Fortunately for Marvin, the Hall of Fame voters did. He got "out-coached" in the first Super Bowl, but of course he should have still won it if Norwood kicks the 47 yarder. In the next 3 SB's, Marv may or may not have been "out-coached", but they were out-talented more then anything else.
mikef292004 Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 After doing some research, I thought about it, and really Marv was only in control for one full offseason. Hired in January 2006, he had 3 months before the 2006 draft which had already been scouted for. 2007 was all Marv, and considering he was the GM for that season, we'll say the scouting for the 2008 draft was also all on him. I'll list the picks we made, and the ones who are gone will be in parentheses. 2006: Whitner, McCargo, Youboty, (Simpson), Williams, (Butler), Ellison, (Pennington), (Merz) 2007: (Lynch), Poz, (Edwards), (Wright), (Wendling), (Schouman), (Ah You) 2008: McKelvin, (Hardy), (Ellis), Corner, (Fine), (Bowen), (Omon), Bell, Steve Johnson, (Cox) The 2006 draft can be called solid. They may not be the best players in the league, but Whitner, Williams and Ellison are all starters (Ellison generally due to injury, but still he's started more games than he's sat). But come on? 1 pick left from 2007? 4 from 2008? 5 out of 17 picks? That's not how a team is built. Ok good post - However butler was a solid pick, he just retired..That can't be put on Marv.. Neither can Lynch - That was a solid pick too, the guy is a great back.. Thats all I have - thanks for your time..
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