The Hank Bullough era returns to Buffalo

[billsfreak]

I think you had couple of people trying to bet you $100. You'd be a couple of hundred dollars richer if you accepted those bets.

I read the article from John Wawrow that he feels Ralphie is putting together a succession plan, I hope that is true. While I do give credit to Ralphie for putting a team in Buffalo and keeping it here for all these years, he's done a ton of meddling and has made some really terrible decisions, which is why the Bills are where they are now and no respectable GM/coach/player wants to come here. Hopefully that changes with a new owner. Plus, I hope the new owner makes some front office changes, including firing Tom Modrak. Modrak has been here 10 years (which is the same amount of time of the Bills playoff drought)...coincedence?

I did have at least one person (Mike Oxhurtz-who also called me a coward for not betting), but like I said then, I was quite sure the Bills would be in the top 2 or 3 picks of the draft, but I still sit on sundays like every other Bills fan and hope for a victory, get frustrated by another defeat and then put a video from the 1990's in. In other words, like I said months ago, I am not going to cheer against them for money even though they are one of if not the worst teams in the NFL.

[first_and_ten]

So then Ralph would also be the reason the Bills won back-to-back league championships in 1964 & 1965, were one game away from playing Vince Lombardi's Green Bay Packers in Superbowl I the following season, and won an unprecedented (and probably never-to-be duplicated) four consecutive AFC titles from 1990 to 1993, yes?

 

(Just to make sure you're going to be consistent in passing out blame.)

I can only speak on the time period when i became a Bills fan until now, which would be 1970. What did RW do with Lou Saban? What did he do with Chuck Knox? He got lucky finding Bill Polian, and he fired him during the superbowl years. Who fires a GM that builds a superbowl team while they are still winning? I'll tell you who..Ralph Wilson. Remember Polian only got his break after the then GM , Terry Bledsoe suffered a heart attack. He found the pot of gold and then threw it away. Looking at the Ralph Wilson record since 1970, i can only guess that he got very lucky in 1964 and 1965. But if you want to credit Mr Wilson with those teams, then be my guest..as long as you give him credit for the mediocrity we now have. Lets all hug and give each other high fives for that great championship team of 36 years ago. Give me a break!!

Edited October 14, 2010 by first_and_ten

[tennesseeboy]

Sadly, there's no players on the current roster like Bruce Smith, Cornelius Bennett, Andre Reed, Jim Kelly, Darryl Talley, Wil Wolford, Kent Hull, etc. To even begin, we would have to hit homeruns on all of our drafts choices for the next 3 years.

And no players on the current roster like Terrel Owens, Incognito, Aaron Schobel,or Kawika Mitchell or Marshawn Lynch. The team gets weaker by the week.

[The Senator]

I can only speak on the time period when i became a Bills fan until now, which would be 1970. What did RW do with Lou Saban? What did he do with Chuck Knox? He got lucky finding Bill Polian, and he fired him during the superbowl years. Who fires a GM that builds a superbowl team while they are still winning? I'll tell you who..Ralph Wilson. Remember Polian only got his break after the then GM , Terry Bledsoe suffered a heart attack. He found the pot of gold and then threw it away. Looking at the Ralph Wilson record since 1970, i can only guess that he got very lucky in 1964 and 1965. But if you want to credit Mr Wilson with those teams, then be my guest..as long as you give him credit for the mediocrity we now have. Lets all hug and give each other high fives for that great championship team of 36 years ago. Give me a break!!

Check your facts, then come back and try again. If you're over 40 and a fan since 1970, you should already know the answers to a couple of your own questions:

 

1) What did RW do with Lou Saban?

 

Nothing. Lou quit on RW twice - in 1965 and again in 1976. (Lou quit on a lot of different organizations, some before even lasting a full season - which is why, even though I think he's deserving, to this day Saban is not on the Bills ' Wall of Fame ' despite the 2 AFL championships.)

 

2) What did he do with Chuck Knox?

 

Again, nothing. Knox left when his contract expired (after a 4-5 season) to run the Seahawks, who were offering a bundle of $$$$. New opportunity, bigger challenge, more money. It happens in every profession.

 

3) He got lucky finding Bill Polian, and he fired him during the superbowl years. Who fires a GM that builds a superbowl team while they are still winning? I'll tell you who..Ralph Wilson.

 

As Johnny Carson might have said, 'Wrong again, bison-breath!' Bill Polian was promoted up thru the ranks - just like Buddy Nix - and got fired only because he publicly humiliated RW's late daughter, calling her one of the most vile names you can use to refer to a woman (think 'c-word'). Polian's temper and foul mouth were legendary - as Marv Levy has stated more than once - and still Wilson recanted after Polian's outrageous outburst and allowed him to finish out the season so that his son would not have to transfer out of high school (St. Francis) in his senior year.

 

4) Looking at the Ralph Wilson record since 1970, i can only guess that he got very lucky in 1964 and 1965. But if you want to credit Mr Wilson with those teams, then be my guest..as long as you give him credit for the mediocrity we now have. Lets all hug and give each other high fives for that great championship team of 36 years ago. Give me a break!!

 

Um, it was 46 years ago. Ralph must have gotten very lucky in 1963 - the Bills 3rd season of existence - too, since they took the AFL East and went to the playoffs. He got pretty lucky in 1966 as well, when the Bills finished 9-4-1, went to the playoffs for the 4th consecutive season, and missed playing in the first Superbowl ever against Vince Lombardi's Green Bay Packers by one game.

 

He got lucky again in the mid '70s, early 80's, and thru the 'dynasty era' that really began with the 1988 season and lasted thru 1993. So hey, I guess the Bills had pretty decent times in 4 of their 5 decades of existence. Don't give Ralph any credit for that, though.

 

You want to blame him for the current (or previous) temporary mediocrity? Fine, I'm sure he accepts the blame. Just be sure you also throw an occasional bone to the guy who brought 2 AFL championships, 4 AFC championships, 10 division titles, and 17 playoff appearances to the football fans of Buffalo.

Edited October 14, 2010 by The Senator

[tennesseeboy]

"1) What did RW do with Lou Saban?

 

Nothing. Lou quit on RW twice - in 1965 and again in 1976. (Lou quit on a lot of different organizations, some before even lasting a full season - which is why, even though I think he's deserving, to this day Saban is not on the Bills ' Wall of Fame ' despite the 2 AFL championships.)"

 

you know the story of Lou Saban is one of the most interesting in all of sport. It is a wonder no one has written a book about him and his exploits over the course of his career. One can only wonder why he left so many opportunities often at moments of triumph or close to it.

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

Not to belabor the point but it looks to me like Witner is guarding the TEs a lot of times, not just our slow OLBs.

[mike oxhurtz]

I did have at least one person (Mike Oxhurtz-who also called me a coward for not betting), but like I said then, I was quite sure the Bills would be in the top 2 or 3 picks of the draft, but I still sit on sundays like every other Bills fan and hope for a victory, get frustrated by another defeat and then put a video from the 1990's in. In other words, like I said months ago, I am not going to cheer against them for money even though they are one of if not the worst teams in the NFL.

 

I'm glad you didn't accept the bet, because I'd be out $100 bucks. Sorry for coming across as a douche.

 

I did not expect to the Bills to be 0-5 at this point. I expected some growing pains with the defense, but this is ridiculous. The offense looks much better with Fitz in there compared to the previous seasons under Edwards & Losman, but even Fitz is not the franchise QB the Bills need.

[billsfreak]

I'm glad you didn't accept the bet, because I'd be out $100 bucks. Sorry for coming across as a douche.

 

I did not expect to the Bills to be 0-5 at this point. I expected some growing pains with the defense, but this is ridiculous. The offense looks much better with Fitz in there compared to the previous seasons under Edwards & Losman, but even Fitz is not the franchise QB the Bills need.

No problem. We are all suffering together, just some of us had lower expectations from the beginning.

[The Senator]

you know the story of Lou Saban is one of the most interesting in all of sport. It is a wonder no one has written a book about him and his exploits over the course of his career. One can only wonder why he left so many opportunities often at moments of triumph or close to it.

Well now you've given me a project to consider, TB, though someone like Ken Crippen (KRC) is certainly better suited to the task!

 

Couple of interesting tidbits about Lou (besides being a distant relative of 'bama coach Nick Saban) - apparently he played a key role in recruiting Jim Kelly to 'The U' before quitting Miami...

Lou Saban - Head Coaching Jobs

 

Case Institute of Technology (1950–1952)

Northwestern (1955)

Western Illinois (1957–1959)

Boston Patriots (1960–1961)

Buffalo Bills (1962–1965)

Maryland (1966)

Denver Broncos (1967–1971)

Buffalo Bills (1972–1976)

Miami (1977–1978)

Army (1979)

Central Florida (1983–1984)

Peru State (1991)

SUNY Canton (1995–2000)

Chowan (2001–2002)

 

 

And that's leaving out his stint as President of the New York Yankees (1981-1982), coming out of retirement in 1989 to coach high school football (Georgetown, SC), semi-pro team Middle Georgia Heat Wave (1990), Arena Football League's Milwaukee Mustangs (1994), and starting a football program at Alfred State - then quitting before ever coaching a game there!

 

Lou Saban's coaching tree includes:

 

Marty Schottenheimer (played LB for Bills under Saban)

Joel Collier

Cam Cameron

Bill Cowher* (under Schottenheimer at Cleveland & KC)

Herm Edwards

Tony Dungy*

Marvin Lewis

Ken Whisenhunt

Lovie Smith

Rod Marinelli

Mike Tomlin*

 

and...

 

Chan Gailey (Pittsburgh OC under Bill Cowher)

 

 

(*won a Superbowl as head coach)

 

 

With that in mind, can a Superbowl win be 'in the cards' for current Bills HC and Lou Saban 'descendant' Chan Gailey????

 

 

 

GO BILLSSS!!!!

 

Reverse the curse!!!!!

[tennesseeboy]

I think he had a brief stint with the football team at SUNY Alfred (a two year program) somewhere along the line...

 

I'd love to know more about what made him tick. He seems to have kind of sabotaged himself on a number of occassions.

[GRHater69]

2) What did he do with Chuck Knox?

 

Again, nothing. Knox left when his contract expired (after a 4-5 season) to run the Seahawks, who were offering a bundle of $$$$. New opportunity, bigger challenge, more money. It happens in every profession

 

 

There's some more history to Chuck Knox than was alluded to up thread. He basically soured on the organization over its failure to sign Tom Cousineau, not the first time, but the 2nd time after his stint in Montreal. He really wanted him, Wilson didn't want to pay that type of $$ to a linebacker (Wilson was actually right for once). Cousineau never really became a big time player and the Bills got a lot of nice draft picks for him. But at the time Knox felt betrayed. It didn't help that Stew Barber was running the front office and every year after '80 Knox had to deal with holdouts, Smerlas, Butler, Cribbs, etc.

[first_and_ten]

Check your facts, then come back and try again. If you're over 40 and a fan since 1970, you should already know the answers to a couple of your own questions:

 

1) What did RW do with Lou Saban?

 

Nothing. Lou quit on RW twice - in 1965 and again in 1976. (Lou quit on a lot of different organizations, some before even lasting a full season - which is why, even though I think he's deserving, to this day Saban is not on the Bills ' Wall of Fame ' despite the 2 AFL championships.)

 

2) What did he do with Chuck Knox?

 

Again, nothing. Knox left when his contract expired (after a 4-5 season) to run the Seahawks, who were offering a bundle of $$$$. New opportunity, bigger challenge, more money. It happens in every profession.

 

3) He got lucky finding Bill Polian, and he fired him during the superbowl years. Who fires a GM that builds a superbowl team while they are still winning? I'll tell you who..Ralph Wilson.

 

As Johnny Carson might have said, 'Wrong again, bison-breath!' Bill Polian was promoted up thru the ranks - just like Buddy Nix - and got fired only because he publicly humiliated RW's late daughter, calling her one of the most vile names you can use to refer to a woman (think 'c-word'). Polian's temper and foul mouth were legendary - as Marv Levy has stated more than once - and still Wilson recanted after Polian's outrageous outburst and allowed him to finish out the season so that his son would not have to transfer out of high school (St. Francis) in his senior year.

 

4) Looking at the Ralph Wilson record since 1970, i can only guess that he got very lucky in 1964 and 1965. But if you want to credit Mr Wilson with those teams, then be my guest..as long as you give him credit for the mediocrity we now have. Lets all hug and give each other high fives for that great championship team of 36 years ago. Give me a break!!

 

Um, it was 46 years ago. Ralph must have gotten very lucky in 1963 - the Bills 3rd season of existence - too, since they took the AFL East and went to the playoffs. He got pretty lucky in 1966 as well, when the Bills finished 9-4-1, went to the playoffs for the 4th consecutive season, and missed playing in the first Superbowl ever against Vince Lombardi's Green Bay Packers by one game.

 

He got lucky again in the mid '70s, early 80's, and thru the 'dynasty era' that really began with the 1988 season and lasted thru 1993. So hey, I guess the Bills had pretty decent times in 4 of their 5 decades of existence. Don't give Ralph any credit for that, though.

 

You want to blame him for the current (or previous) temporary mediocrity? Fine, I'm sure he accepts the blame. Just be sure you also throw an occasional bone to the guy who brought 2 AFL championships, 4 AFC championships, 10 division titles, and 17 playoff appearances to the football fans of Buffalo.

Check your facts and come back and try again...Bill polian was promoted to Gm after Terry Bledsoe suffered a heart attack. Obviously you also have a hard time understanding when a question is asked in a rhetorical sense. I know what happened to Saban and Knox. Your rose colored glasses need to come off so that you can get a clearer understanding of why those men left this organization. Simply put, they got sick and tired of a cheap meddling owner who's desire for winning was only surpassed by his desire to make money. He is cheap. Bill polian cared about winning. You can really believe that nonsense about Ralph's daughter if you want to but the real reason was money. Polian wanted to spend money to make the team better...Ralph did not. The name calling is a convenient excuse used by guys like you. And um , I know it was 46 years ago. I made a typo. We're not all perfect like you seem to think you are. Just the fact that you need to come up with AFL teams to argue your case is in itself a testament to the mediocrity that RW has buit here. And how can you say that you are sure he accepts the blame? Are you now in a position to speak for him? As one poster once put..wrong again Bison Breath.

[billsfreak]

2) What did he do with Chuck Knox?

 

Again, nothing. Knox left when his contract expired (after a 4-5 season) to run the Seahawks, who were offering a bundle of $$$$. New opportunity, bigger challenge, more money. It happens in every profession

 

 

There's some more history to Chuck Knox than was alluded to up thread. He basically soured on the organization over its failure to sign Tom Cousineau, not the first time, but the 2nd time after his stint in Montreal. He really wanted him, Wilson didn't want to pay that type of $$ to a linebacker (Wilson was actually right for once). Cousineau never really became a big time player and the Bills got a lot of nice draft picks for him. But at the time Knox felt betrayed. It didn't help that Stew Barber was running the front office and every year after '80 Knox had to deal with holdouts, Smerlas, Butler, Cribbs, etc.

Wilson did actually offer Knox an extension, but it was either not enough, or Knox was already tired of Wilson's BS and couldn't wait to get out of town. Plus I think part of it was, he thought the team he had here had reached it's pinnacle wasn't going to get any better.

[thewildrabbit]

There's a lot of George Edwards bashing going on this evening, but I wonder how justified it really is.

 

He might totally suck, but how can we truly gauge his skill as a defensive coordinator when he has the Keystone Cops to work with.

 

What defensive coordinator could make this group of journeymen-level players winners? There is not a single star on the defense. Not a one. And don't think Byrd is a star. He had a fluke season in which he played centerfield and racked up some stats.

 

Name one player on the current defense that would have started for the Bills during their glory days. How many would start for today's Patriots or the Saints?

 

We were snake bitten by injuries taking out first stringers the last several years, but our current level of starters is below the "replacements" we were fielding in those times.

 

Might turn out that George Edwards is the suckiest DC ever, but when converted DE Chris Kelsey is all we got to cover tight ends, I don't think we can categorically blame him just yet.

 

If there's any finger pointing going on, it should be directed at all the so-called personnel staff and the bean counters at One Bills Drive who have been making absolutely horrible personnel decisions for 10+ years. I think a monkey with a deck or tarot cards could do better. I don't mean this as a personal attack on the players, because I'm sure they're fine human beings, and give their all, and want to win as badly as we do, but for the most part, they're simply not superbowl-caliber players.

I disagree about the players, this same basic core of players played much better under Perry Fewell then they did for Jauron. This same basic group of players is playing worse for Edwards then they did for Jauron or Fewell.

 

Lets not forget the horrendous amount of injuries Jaurons teams suffered from, this current team has lost a few for various game but not like years past where 20 guys went on IR each year.

 

This defense is what happens when you have a guy who was an assistant LB coach last season and now asked to run an entire defense, setup play calls and game plans. Chan Gailey could have hired any number of experienced NFL assistant defensive coordinators, he chose someone with no real experience at his job, so the team suffers as this dc learns how to do his job.

 

You can blame Edwards for his lacking the knowledge and skills to build a good defense, or you could blame the guy who hired him.

[The Senator]

Check your facts and come back and try again...Bill polian was promoted to Gm after Terry Bledsoe suffered a heart attack. Obviously you also have a hard time understanding when a question is asked in a rhetorical sense. I know what happened to Saban and Knox. Your rose colored glasses need to come off so that you can get a clearer understanding of why those men left this organization. Simply put, they got sick and tired of a cheap meddling owner who's desire for winning was only surpassed by his desire to make money. He is cheap. Bill polian cared about winning. You can really believe that nonsense about Ralph's daughter if you want to but the real reason was money. Polian wanted to spend money to make the team better...Ralph did not. The name calling is a convenient excuse used by guys like you. And um , I know it was 46 years ago. I made a typo. We're not all perfect like you seem to think you are. Just the fact that you need to come up with AFL teams to argue your case is in itself a testament to the mediocrity that RW has buit here. And how can you say that you are sure he accepts the blame? Are you now in a position to speak for him? As one poster once put..wrong again Bison Breath.

Is that all you can come up with - throwing my own quips back at me? So besides being an incessant whiner and total idiot, I guess you're also devoid of any original thought? What's your next witty comeback gonna be - "Oh yeah?" or "I know you are, but what am I?"

 

Let's see, you can't add/subtract, can't type, and can't seem to get it through your seemingly empty skull that if you want to blame Ralph Wilson for the Bills' periods of mediocrity - even total, all-out 'suckitude' - that's just fine with me; just make sure you also credit him for the good times. Be consistent in your assignation of credit as well as blame. That's all I ask.

 

Moron.

Edited October 15, 2010 by The Senator

[The Senator]

Check your facts and come back and try again...Bill polian was promoted to Gm after Terry Bledsoe suffered a heart attack. Obviously you also have a hard time understanding when a question is asked in a rhetorical sense. I know what happened to Saban and Knox. Your rose colored glasses need to come off so that you can get a clearer understanding of why those men left this organization. Simply put, they got sick and tired of a cheap meddling owner who's desire for winning was only surpassed by his desire to make money. He is cheap. Bill polian cared about winning. You can really believe that nonsense about Ralph's daughter if you want to but the real reason was money. Polian wanted to spend money to make the team better...Ralph did not. The name calling is a convenient excuse used by guys like you. And um , I know it was 46 years ago. I made a typo. We're not all perfect like you seem to think you are. Just the fact that you need to come up with AFL teams to argue your case is in itself a testament to the mediocrity that RW has buit here. And how can you say that you are sure he accepts the blame? Are you now in a position to speak for him? As one poster once put..wrong again Bison Breath.

Oh, and one more thing...apparently you don't read, either...

 

The Bills haven’t had a franchise quarterback since Hall of Famer Jim Kelly retired following the 1996 season. Since then, nine players have started at least eight games, with Drew Bledsoe holding the job for the longest tenure, from 2002-04. Buffalo has already shuffled quarterbacks this year, with Ryan Fitzpatrick(notes) taking over the starting job in Week 3, and Trent Edwards(notes) being released a week later.

 

Wilson spoke as the Bills enter their bye week, and a day after he watched his team blow a 10-point first-half lead in a 36-26 loss to Jacksonville. Buffalo is off to an 0-5 start for the fifth time in franchise history, and first since 1985. Buffalo has allowed 30 points in four straight games for the first time in team history. It’s a stretch during which the Bills have been outscored 146-77. And the team’s already in jeopardy of missing the playoffs for an 11th straight year.

 

Wilson took full responsibility for the team’s decade-long woes, a stretch in which they’ve only had one winning season (a 9-7 finish in 2004) since 2000. The Bills are on their sixth coach (including Perry Fewell, who finished last season on an interim basis), and fifth general manager over that stretch.

 

“The blame falls on me because I made those selections,” Wilson said. “And I don’t want to blame somebody else. I take the blame.”

 

And Wilson is well aware of how fans have begun to criticize him for the team’s troubles.

 

“Oh yeah,” he said. “I know that, and I don’t blame them.”

 

 

(I don't have to speak for him - that's from the VERY widely circulated AP writer John Warwow's interview with the man himself - link)

 

 

Do you have any idea at all what an annoying, incessant little whiner you are?

[GRHater69]

Polian was not promoted to GM after Bledsoe's heart attack. He acted in the role of GM along with Norm Pollom until Bledsoe's health allowed him to return. He was promoted to GM after Bledsoe was fired at the conclusion of the '85 season. One of the things that sealed the deal for Bledsoe was the god awful trade for Vince Feragamo.

[Thurman#1]

Who decided to covert Chis Kelsay to a LB? Who decided to take a bad 4-3 team and turn it into an abysmal 3-4 team?

 

No doubt the personnel people suck, but so does George Edwards.

 

 

Who converted to the 3 - 4?

 

"“You adjust to what your players do best,” Gailey said. “That’s one reason I hired George Edwards, because he has the knowledge of certain types of 3-4 (defenses) to be able to adjust people and put them in the best possible position to do their job.” - Chan Gailey

 

http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thedailydolphin/2010/02/25/chan-gailey-george-edwards-will-help-bills-nose-tackles/

 

Gailey and Nix converted to the 3 - 4. They might not have announced it before they picked up Edwards, but it was a decision they'd made. Gailey has said he wanted the 3 - 4 because as an offensive coordinator, he had a harder time dealing with 3 - 4 defenses.

[Thurman#1]

I disagree about the players, this same basic core of players played much better under Perry Fewell then they did for Jauron. This same basic group of players is playing worse for Edwards then they did for Jauron or Fewell.

 

 

 

#1 It's not the same group. Quite a few differences, the primary one being that our best player, Schobel, retired, leaving us without a pass rush.

 

#2 Under Jauron and Fewell, they were playing in a scheme for which they had been selected because they had the size and physical talents to handle their position in that scheme. Now, they're playing in a scheme for which they're NOT the right size and mostly DON'T have the correct physical talents to succeed at their new positions. Kelsay, for instance, was correctly sized and had the talent to be a decent run-stopping DE in a 4 -3 scheme, and could even get a few sacks when the other teams were double-teaming Schobel on the other side. Now he's supposed to be covering recievers. And you actually wonder why he's playing worse for Edwards than for Jauron or Fewell?

 

#3 In a 4 - 3, they were playing positions they had manned for years, most of them. They were instinctive, because they knew their responsibilities and had the experience. Now, they're playing positions they hadn't played before OTAs this year. Which means they have to think rather than just reacting.

 

#4 The Tampa Two works best with smaller quicker players. The 3 - 4 works best with huge strong guys in the front seven. How surprising is it that those small guys aren't doing well in the scheme made for huge guys?

 

This isn't Chinese algebra.

 

They're playing worse because they don't fit the defense. And the Bills knew that would happen, tried to minimize it, and did the best they could but this was in the cards from the moment they committed to the 3 - 4. The Bills don't mind sucking this year ... we're rebuilding, and our goal is to be one of the best teams in football in 2012 or 2013 regardless of whether that hurts us this year.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Thurman#1

[Scraps]

Who converted to the 3 - 4?

 

"“You adjust to what your players do best,” Gailey said. “That’s one reason I hired George Edwards, because he has the knowledge of certain types of 3-4 (defenses) to be able to adjust people and put them in the best possible position to do their job.” - Chan Gailey

 

http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thedailydolphin/2010/02/25/chan-gailey-george-edwards-will-help-bills-nose-tackles/

 

Gailey and Nix converted to the 3 - 4. They might not have announced it before they picked up Edwards, but it was a decision they'd made. Gailey has said he wanted the 3 - 4 because as an offensive coordinator, he had a harder time dealing with 3 - 4 defenses.

 

Fine, have it your way. Does the sorry excuse for talent that we had for a defense work better in a 4-3 or a 3-4? The results speak for themselves. Gailey and Nix suck.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Scraps