"Firefighters" refuse to put out residents fire but stand arou

[NoSaint]

I honestly can't believe some of you are supporting this policy.

 

American's are not only losing compassion when it comes to their worldview but now towards their own neighbours.

Trust me... I'm not the only one to say this.

 

The almighty dollars rules everything.

 

 

This isnt just about the cost of putting the fire out.

 

If you want outrage you could just as easily direct it at the guy that decided to risk his own well being based on the fact that other people should pay for this service, not him -- because he is somehow above the community? Because they all owe it to him to fund his services? He rolled the dice and he lost (both on skipping out on the service AND on buring trash in his yard).... should these men have to put there own well being at risk to bail him out? He tried to beat the system and it bit him in the ass. Its not just about money, its just as much about morals, and ethics on both sides of the argument.

[Slayers]

Here is what somebody said about this and I agree:

 

"If one chooses to not pay the subscription fee, they're on their own. *BUT* should the need arise, they can call the FD and the FD should put the fire out as best they can. As a moral and professional responsibility.

 

Then they should place a lien on the property for the full cost of putting the fire out."

Anyway... I looked into it... I didn't know it was the owner's fault for burning trash that got out of hand. Yet, my argument is still the same with regard to the FD having a moral and professional responsibility if the need arises. Afterall, an out of hand fire is a public safety issue.

 

Also: I guess at a later time, somebody (other than the families innvolved) went to the fire station, walked up to the fire chief and cold cocked him.

 

How could the city place a Lien on a house that is not even in city limits?

 

The city has a fire dept. that covers the city and then they are nice enough to offer to come out of the city and cover the rial area for a fee of $75 I don't that that's much to ask for since it will cost them a lot more between fuel and man power to cover people that DO NOT even live in the city limits.

[KD in CA]

How could the city place a Lien on a house that is not even in city limits?

 

The city has a fire dept. that covers the city and then they are nice enough to offer to come out of the city and cover the rial area for a fee of $75 I don't that that's much to ask for since it will cost them a lot more between fuel and man power to cover people that DO NOT even live in the city limits.

 

That's the key point. Most of us live in urban areas so it's difficult to imagine not having services like fire protection that isn't part of the local municipality. But if you live in the sticks, there just isn't the local tax base to support that kind of stuff, so part of your cost of living in that area is to contribute to what is essentially a fire cooperative.

[Ramius]

It sucks for this guy, but he basically refused to purchase "insurance." He gambled that it wasn't worth his $75 to retain the fire department services and lost.

[Gary M]

See this is the thing. It sounds like the fire started away from the house at no negligence by the homeowner that lost their house! I see the FD losing this one in court.

 

"The Cranicks told 9-1-1 they would pay firefighters, whatever the cost, to stop the fire before it spread to their house."

 

 

Again, sounds like the fire started AWAY from the house, which I think the FD is liable for fee or no fee paid.

 

The courts will decide this one. Now if the fire started at the residence, I can possibly see the FD getting of the hook... Even know IMO opinion it is morally and ethically wrong.

 

What if life was an issue? Could the FD be charged with good samaritan laws that may be on the books?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Really? To a certain extent, I can see your point... But that quickly disolves in what I said above. The problem is even more compounded in that they came and watched. If you want your point to hold, they should have never come at all.

 

Looks like this guy is a triple loser. He was burning trash, so he could possible be the one charged with arson. And more than likely if he has home onwers ins it won't cover the loss.

 

BTW burning trash in tenn is illegal.

 

http://www.state.tn.us/environment/apc/pdf/OpenBurningBrochure.pdf

Edited October 5, 2010 by Gary M

[ExiledInIllinois]

These people were trying to get by with the "itll never happen to me attitude" which can do just as much, if not more damage to society then the firefighters lack of service with a smile in this situation. If they do bail out these people then how many other people will leach off the system the following year?

 

Also, the common decency of helping someone across the road, shoveling a neighbors driveway, and running into a burning building are hardly comparable (i know they werent in this thread, but i think expecting some friendly help, and risking ones life are in two very different categories). I also imagine there are numerous issues with insurance, liability etc... What if one of the FD was injured? Or the person claimed that the water caused damages to the house?

 

It is a sad state that things like that have to be asked, but you wont see me argue that someone that declined to pay for emergency fire services, and then was burning trash on their yard, is somehow wronged when the fire department doesnt bail them out. Unfortunately this was a lesson learned the hardest of ways, they should be thankful that no one was hurt by their bad choices.

 

I totally hear what you are saying NoSaint... But when push comes to shove and the FD are there at the neighbors BECAUSE OF THE FREELOADER'S ACTIONS... One turns the hose on the house that didn't pay. Final, plain and simple common decency. You and I may have a grudge with the freeloader, but that doesn't or shouldn't have anything to do with our human decency, professional and moral obligation, and compassion towards the freeloaders stuff and animals/pets that died in the fire. I heard that he had a couple of dogs and cats that perished..

 

So much better for the FD to take the higher moral ground than worry about the "what ifs" and debase or civilization and culture.

 

Stuff like this is such a rallying cry against uncompassionate libertarianism. This kind of uncompassionate libertarianism flies directly opposite to humanitarianism. Think of the harm the FD did by not "bridging" the two.

 

This is just goning to get more people thinking that citizens shouldn't be able to opt out on stuff like this. This is a public safety issue and the money should be mandatorily taken out of taxes.

 

If we privatize these institutions, just think of the extortion that may/will become rampant. It has in our past history... Haven't we learned our lesson during the first 150 years of our country's existence?... These were the same exact systems in place during those times. Why were they changed? Now we are regressing back to our former past as a society.

 

Take what you want from my post.. I know some will not agree... Maybe you don't. So be it.

 

We are better than this... Both the freeloading homeowner and the non-compassion and professionalism shown by the FD and City Hall.

[ExiledInIllinois]

I honestly can't believe some of you are supporting this policy.

 

American's are not only losing compassion when it comes to their worldview but now towards their own neighbours.

Trust me... I'm not the only one to say this.

 

The almighty dollars rules everything.

 

You are totally right Kiwi. I am totally disgusted, ashamed and sorry that a lot in our American culture has not progreesed past the 9 year boy stage. Where did we go wrong?

 

Maybe it is the emphasis on sports and not enough emphasis on:

 

Trustworthy: Tells the truth, is honest, and keeps promises. People can depend on them.

Loyal

Helpful: Cares about other people and willingly volunteers to help others without expecting payment or reward.

Friendly

Courteous

Kind: Knows there is strength in being gentle and treats others as he wants to be treated. Without good reason, does not harm or kill any living thing.

Obedient

Cheerful: Looks for the bright side of life, cheerfully does tasks that come his way and tries to make others happy.

Thrifty

Brave: Can face danger although they are afraid and has the courage to stand for what they thinks is right even if others laugh at them or threaten her.

Clean and reverent

 

On my honor, I will do my best

To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;

To help other people at all times;

To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

 

 

When was this made? 1908.

 

Truly sad how a fire department, its crew and leaders along with a City Hall violated so much of the above out of selfishness over a 75 dollar grudge and fear people will not pay in the future! :wallbash:

 

This isn't about the freeloading homeowner, this is about people that are leaders in our country and how they are failing to measure up.

 

Again, I am truly sorry for my countrymen Kiwi.

Edited October 6, 2010 by ExiledInIllinois

[bills_fan]

People need to understand that actions (and the failure to act) have consequences. Don't pay the fee...take your chances. The FD was just following city orders. If they did not like the policy, vote to change it. Otherwise, it is in your best interests to pay the (reasonable $75 annual) fee for fire protection. Don't whine about it now....next time you'll pay the fee.

[NoSaint]

I totally hear what you are saying NoSaint... But when push comes to shove and the FD are there at the neighbors BECAUSE OF THE FREELOADER'S ACTIONS... One turns the hose on the house that didn't pay. Final, plain and simple common decency. You and I may have a grudge with the freeloader, but that doesn't or shouldn't have anything to do with our human decency, professional and moral obligation, and compassion towards the freeloaders stuff and animals/pets that died in the fire. I heard that he had a couple of dogs and cats that perished..

 

So much better for the FD to take the higher moral ground than worry about the "what ifs" and debase or civilization and culture.

 

Stuff like this is such a rallying cry against uncompassionate libertarianism. This kind of uncompassionate libertarianism flies directly opposite to humanitarianism. Think of the harm the FD did by not "bridging" the two.

 

This is just goning to get more people thinking that citizens shouldn't be able to opt out on stuff like this. This is a public safety issue and the money should be mandatorily taken out of taxes.

 

If we privatize these institutions, just think of the extortion that may/will become rampant. It has in our past history... Haven't we learned our lesson during the first 150 years of our country's existence?... These were the same exact systems in place during those times. Why were they changed? Now we are regressing back to our former past as a society.

 

Take what you want from my post.. I know some will not agree... Maybe you don't. So be it.

 

We are better than this... Both the freeloading homeowner and the non-compassion and professionalism shown by the FD and City Hall.

 

 

I think i agree with elements of this post, more than some of the previous. I do think there is a big difference between my saying that this man was not a victim, and that the fire department shouldnt have helped out -- atleast to a base degree. I think they could and most likely should have done SOMETHING. Hell, they could even have a billing and liability waiver drawn up that the people could have signed upon their arrival. In its simplest terms, everyone came out a loser here, and it was all set in action by this mans social loafing, followed up by illegal and reckless actions... and as you point out, the fire departments strict (and callous) following of there rules.

Edited October 6, 2010 by NoSaint

[Buftex]

I honestly can't believe some of you are supporting this policy.

 

American's are not only losing compassion when it comes to their worldview but now towards their own neighbours.

Trust me... I'm not the only one to say this.

 

The almighty dollars rules everything.

 

 

Tea-baggers! Everyone is a teabagger, until it happens to them!

[Chef Jim]

They offered to pay the money... But that is another matter. The FD wanted to be dicks and teach these "people a lesson." IMO, that is not being decent. Whatever happened to cheerdul service even if the person or department feels they are "being played?"

 

I am just arguing the point of decency. Obviously, this FD and City Hall did not have any decency... Either did the workers who would not risk their own job and take matters into their own hands by leading. That's what is all about. Helping people in need. Leading. A sense of honor.

 

You may be right. Again, I am looking at it from a decency issue. Given the situation myself, I can't say I would call 911 and ask for help. The problem is they attempted to fight the fire before it spread to the house and were over-matched. That was a poor choice they made (not paying). Nobody "gets exactly what they asked for in this situation." That is just cold.

 

We really are losing our ideals and way when it comes to unselfish service to others. This FD should have taken this opportunity to crystallize the habit of helpfulness. It should be everyone's life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others no matter how much people are paid.

 

The truly sad part is, this FD and City Hall lost so much more than the 75 bucks they would have gained if the family "did it right" in the first place. They have lost their way. The FD and City Hall lost their way as leaders in the community.

 

This is what we are supposed to teach our youth? What this FD and City Hall did. We are really in trouble folks...

 

 

 

No. Yet, if it became a health hazard after a few weeks... Yes. Then send them the bill.

 

If they don't pay the fee but the FD puts the fire out anyway, what's the incentive to pay the fee in the first place?

[Lori]

Interesting debate. Curious as to the logistics at work here, I looked up the "city" of South Fulton, and discovered that not only is it smaller than my own tiny rural town, their entire department consists of two engines, a pumper, a brush truck, a cascade system (to refill SCBA), and 17 volunteer firefighters (of which only five had achieved basic FF1 certification in 2008). Seriously, it's remarkable that a department of that size could even survive, much less provide coverage outside the city limits.

 

But in the end, once they DID respond ...

Washington, DC – International Association of Fire Fighters General President Harold Schaitberger

today issued the following statement on the September 29 fire in Obion County, Tennessee:

“The decision by the South Fulton Fire Department to allow a family’s home to burn to the ground was

incredibly irresponsible. This tragic loss of property was completely avoidable. Because of South

Fulton’s pay-to-play policy, fire fighters were ordered to stand and watch a family lose its home.

“Everyone deserves fire protection because providing public safety is among a municipality’s highest

priorities.

“Instead, South Fulton wants to charge citizens outside the city for fire protection. We condemn South

Fulton’s ill-advised, unsafe policy. Professional, career fire fighters shouldn’t be forced to check a list

before running out the door to see which homeowners have paid up. They get in their trucks and go.”

Agreed, pay-to-play EMS services are untenable. Time for Obion County to set up fire protection districts to make sure every part of the county is covered ... like the eight fire departments in the county, including the one in South Fulton, suggested they do in 2008. Someone want to ring up the county commissioners and see what happened to that proposal?

 

Adding one more note from the local newspaper: http://www.nwtntoday.com/news.php?viewStory=46801

Vowell said people always think they will never be in a situation where they will need rural fire protection, but he said City of South Fulton personnel actually go above and beyond in trying to offer the service. He said the city mails out notices to customers in the specified rural coverage area, with coverage running from July 1 of one year to July 1 the next year.

At the end of the enrollment month of July, the city goes a step further and makes phone calls to rural residents who have not responded to the mail-out.

“These folks were called and notified,” Vowell said. “I want to make sure everybody has the opportunity to get it and be aware it’s available. It’s been there for 20 years, but it’s very important to follow up.”

Mayor Crocker added, “It’s my understanding with talking with the firefighters that these folks had received their bill and they had also contacted them by phone.”

[bartshan-83]

I'm sort of torn.

 

I think that it's the guy's own fault for not paying and if the FD had put it out, everyone is exactly right that there is no incentive to pay. EVER.

 

OTOH, to have the capability to save the guy's house and instead allow it to burn to the ground is a pretty cold policy. The firefighters aren't in the wrong...they were doing their jobs.

 

I'd offer that a good policy would be to put out a fire even if the person didn't pay, but slap a HEAVY punitive fine onto it. I'm talking $2K-$5K.

 

Sort of like medical insurance. If you decide to forgo coverage and you rip up your knee, a doctor isn't going to refuse to treat you. But you are gonna get tagged with that $20K bill when he's done.

[Lori]

Time for Obion County to set up fire protection districts to make sure every part of the county is covered ... like the eight fire departments in the county, including the one in South Fulton, suggested they do in 2008. Someone want to ring up the county commissioners and see what happened to that proposal?

Oh, gee, guess what?

 

http://www.ucmessenger.com/news.php?viewStory=46976

 

Posted: Tuesday, October 5, 2010 1:07 pm

 

By CHRIS MENEES

Staff Reporter

 

An interlocal agreement for county-wide fire protection that has been two years in the making is being sent to the Obion County Commission for a vote.

The Obion County Budget Committee voted at its session Monday morning at the Obion County Court-house to send the Interlocal Agreement for County Wide Fire Protection to the full commission for a vote when it convenes Oct. 18.

The lengthy and detailed agreement was presented to the budget committee by fire committee vice chairman Tim Doyle, who explained the committee met as recently as last week and “tweaked it a little.”

Barn door, horse, et cetera, et cetera.

[Captain Caveman]

The almighty dollars rules everything.

 

My father taught me that you get what you pay for. That includes government, services, etc....

[The Avenger]

My father taught me that you get what you pay for. That includes government, services, etc....

 

Yes, but at what point do things stop being "a la carte"/use based and fall into that category of government services covered under "for the common good"?

 

People like to complain about taxes and how government should be incredibly small and then forget about the unseen givernment services that benefit them on a dily basis - the streets/stoplights/bridges you use to get to the airport, the cops/EMS folks who would attend to you if you had an accident on the way there, the FDA inspectors who made sure that sausage in your McMuffin wasn't rancid, the air traffic controller who makes sure your flight doesn't crash into another, the TSA guy who screens your bag and keeps the guns out, the CDC folks who tracks/warns you and fellow travelers if an epidemic flu is spreading....the list goes on and on......

 

You COULD pay for everything on an as-used basis is you lived in some sort of Milton Friedman utopia, but it's simply not practical and in the long run, I don't think it would be any cheaper or more equitable. Certain things exist for the common good and should be funded via everyone's taxes regardless of use - I think firefighting and public safety fall into that category, but maybe I'm just some sort of rabid Marxist pinko.........

[bills_fan]

Yes, but at what point do things stop being "a la carte"/use based and fall into that category of government services covered under "for the common good"?

 

People like to complain about taxes and how government should be incredibly small and then forget about the unseen givernment services that benefit them on a dily basis - the streets/stoplights/bridges you use to get to the airport, the cops/EMS folks who would attend to you if you had an accident on the way there, the FDA inspectors who made sure that sausage in your McMuffin wasn't rancid, the air traffic controller who makes sure your flight doesn't crash into another, the TSA guy who screens your bag and keeps the guns out, the CDC folks who tracks/warns you and fellow travelers if an epidemic flu is spreading....the list goes on and on......

 

You COULD pay for everything on an as-used basis is you lived in some sort of Milton Friedman utopia, but it's simply not practical and in the long run, I don't think it would be any cheaper or more equitable. Certain things exist for the common good and should be funded via everyone's taxes regardless of use - I think firefighting and public safety fall into that category, but maybe I'm just some sort of rabid Marxist pinko.........

 

 

I was hearing you unil that part. You realize TSA stands for Thousands Standing Around right?

[ExiledInIllinois]

I think i agree with elements of this post, more than some of the previous. I do think there is a big difference between my saying that this man was not a victim, and that the fire department shouldnt have helped out -- atleast to a base degree. I think they could and most likely should have done SOMETHING. Hell, they could even have a billing and liability waiver drawn up that the people could have signed upon their arrival. In its simplest terms, everyone came out a loser here, and it was all set in action by this mans social loafing, followed up by illegal and reckless actions... and as you point out, the fire departments strict (and callous) following of there rules.

 

+1

 

Fair enough. I know they are just animals/pets... But the guy's pets died in the fire... I mean they were right there wetting the soil around the neighbor's house so it wouldn't catch fire. Everybody is a loser here, now he is saying he "forgot" to pay. :rolleyes: Did he pay previous years? If he did, the FD wil look even more cold. I know the FD and City Hall may have been played by a non-paying resident... But, come on! When push comes to shove, you put the grudge down and do the right thing... Sort the mess out in the end.

 

The uber liberals will have a field day with an uncompassionate story like this and rightly so! Is this what wew are becoming? Our society was full of crap like before we started to look at things different post-New Deal.

 

If they don't pay the fee but the FD puts the fire out anyway, what's the incentive to pay the fee in the first place?

 

Then I guess whole towns burn and nobody does anything. :rolleyes:

 

Are we really this shallow? I understand what you are saying, but who cares? Let's cross that bridge when we get to it. It should be mandatory in whatever he pays via taxes. He probably paid something in taxes, just not the "added protection." ?? If nobody pays, then they make it mandatory or a lien is slapped on the house or whatever... People still pay their taxes all the time. I am surprised the insurance company didn't make it mandatory. They gotta be fuming.

 

You just can't privatize or give people the option here... They are just too stupid and put others at risk. This guy put his neighbor at risk, that is why the FD showed up in the first place.

 

Are we really going down this road? The days when public service can extort its citizens will return upon us. Notice I said: "return."

 

I'm sort of torn.

 

I think that it's the guy's own fault for not paying and if the FD had put it out, everyone is exactly right that there is no incentive to pay. EVER.

 

OTOH, to have the capability to save the guy's house and instead allow it to burn to the ground is a pretty cold policy. The firefighters aren't in the wrong...they were doing their jobs.

 

I'd offer that a good policy would be to put out a fire even if the person didn't pay, but slap a HEAVY punitive fine onto it. I'm talking $2K-$5K.

 

Sort of like medical insurance. If you decide to forgo coverage and you rip up your knee, a doctor isn't going to refuse to treat you. But you are gonna get tagged with that $20K bill when he's done.

 

Civil disobedience... If I was a firefighter there, I would have told my chief to !@#$ off and turn the hose to the house... Thy would have had to frog-march me off. Anyway, that is exactly what I heard they did to the homeowner.. Frog-march him off... I read that the cops came and took him off his property. Supposedly, he was trying to use garden hoses to fight the fire.

 

Anyway... Pets died (dogs and cats)...

 

Yes, but at what point do things stop being "a la carte"/use based and fall into that category of government services covered under "for the common good"?

 

People like to complain about taxes and how government should be incredibly small and then forget about the unseen givernment services that benefit them on a dily basis - the streets/stoplights/bridges you use to get to the airport, the cops/EMS folks who would attend to you if you had an accident on the way there, the FDA inspectors who made sure that sausage in your McMuffin wasn't rancid, the air traffic controller who makes sure your flight doesn't crash into another, the TSA guy who screens your bag and keeps the guns out, the CDC folks who tracks/warns you and fellow travelers if an epidemic flu is spreading....the list goes on and on......

 

You COULD pay for everything on an as-used basis is you lived in some sort of Milton Friedman utopia, but it's simply not practical and in the long run, I don't think it would be any cheaper or more equitable. Certain things exist for the common good and should be funded via everyone's taxes regardless of use - I think firefighting and public safety fall into that category, but maybe I'm just some sort of rabid Marxist pinko.........

 

 

24/7/365, the LOCK OPERATOR that makes sure billions of dollars of cargo gets to market safely and towns don't flood... Even on Christmas morning...

 

 

Yet, all joking aside.. That is why my job is owned by the gov't... Not privatized. In the past, when they did privatize public service jobs like mine... There was rampant corporate extortion. A lot of companies that owned the public infrastructure would only serve what was in the company's best interest... Screw their competition.

Edited October 6, 2010 by ExiledInIllinois

[KD in CA]

Yes, but at what point do things stop being "a la carte"/use based and fall into that category of government services covered under "for the common good"?

 

In this case, at the town line. There's only so much gov't service you can provide for rural populations. That's why those folks tend to be pretty self sufficient.

[ExiledInIllinois]

In this case, at the town line. There's only so much gov't service you can provide for rural populations. That's why those folks tend to be pretty self sufficient.

 

 

True... But the FD was right there wetting down the soil soas not to let the neighbors house catch... :wallbash:

 

Didn't seem like they were too "overburdened.'

 

Seemed like they had a "score to settle."

 

Like Lori posted the quote... Its irresponsible from the people who want to lead.

 

I guess the son went to the station and punched the Chief out... He is now charged with assualt, I guess rightly so. Anyway, supposedly the guys grandson was burning the trash... :wallbash:

 

I really want to know if the family paid in years past??? Did they really forget. Maybe when the FD came door to door to put the squeeze on, they didn't have the cash and really just let it slip. Who knows??

 

Firefighters "checking lists on who paid." "Get in the truck and go." Priceless responses!

Edited October 7, 2010 by ExiledInIllinois