Great Article Out of Milwaukee

[ExiledInIllinois]

IMO, this could really help BFLO and possibly restore its geographical importance as a "break in bulk" point that was destroyed when the Seaway opened in 1959... Of course that Seaway brought a city like Toronto into global prominence.

Closing Down The Front Door: The St. Lawrence Seaway

 

"One reason the idea of shutting the Seaway to overseas vessels remains a political taboo is that the Seaway is jointly owned with Canada - though the U.S. owns outright two of the Seaway locks that all oceangoing ships must pass through.

 

The sovereignty issue hasn't stopped Canadians from pushing to close the locks at Chicago; early this year the Province of Ontario filed a motion with the U.S. Supreme Court that stated:

 

"Our waters are interconnected, and irreparable harm to U.S. states will almost certainly entail similar irreparable harm to Ontario."

 

The Great Lakes states could make the same argument against any trouble that might be sailing up the Seaway at this very moment."

 

 

 

Also, I would like to add... What about the water Canada DIVERTS INTO (more water than Illinois/Chicago diverts out via the Chicago Diversion) the Great Lakes via the Hudson Bay into Lake Superior? Why aren't they stopping that diversion and possible avenue of disease and invasive species to the Lakes?

 

I am glad that this is finally being reported on. I am torn here. I want to see industry on both sides flourish. Industry does not have to be shut down for the enviro to be truly protected. Yet, my heart still feels for a city like BFLO that was totally killed by the Seaway. I guess blood is thicker than water or a job (especially at this stage in my life) to me.

 

Quite a 21st Century "water war" is brewing.

 

Just another note... Notice the map entitled "Open Door Policy." Read where they just dicovered this year a "fish killing virus" up in Lake Superior. Where did that come from? Again, what about the "side door" up in Canada through the Arctic. Like I noted above many people forget about this avenue because it is so remote and not populated.

Edited October 3, 2010 by ExiledInIllinois

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

Obviously, the solution to this situation is for New York State to do a 3-year government study, done by newly hired civil service employees with lucrative benefits.

 

That's what's made Buffalo the booming metropolis that it is!

 

[Marv's Neighbor]

Unfortunately, you can't undo 50 years of economic back sliding.

 

Even if the Seaway closed tomorrow we've already lost so much manufacturing capacity and railroad infrastructure that it would take 15-20 years just to rebuild enough to be competetive. WNY is so Tax-unfriendly toward business that Buffalo would have a hard time attracting any significant new action.

 

Access to Canada is totally inadequate. The Peace Bridge has become a joke. The International Bridge from Black Rock to Fort Erie has to be close to 100 years old and nobody's even talking about replacing that.

 

As much as I would like to see Buffalo have a big economic turn around, there's so much to be done and nobody to step up and start the process!

[The Poojer]

you bring such an interesting perspective to the backbone of how our country works. I take for granted the use and importance of our waterways to our health and economy. Water commerce to me seems like an ancient and outdated mode of doing business, yet you constantly remind me of how vital it still is in the modern world. Thanks.

 

IMO, this could really help BFLO and possibly restore its geographical importance as a "break in bulk" point that was destroyed when the Seaway opened in 1959... Of course that Seaway brought a city like Toronto into global prominence.

Closing Down The Front Door: The St. Lawrence Seaway

 

"One reason the idea of shutting the Seaway to overseas vessels remains a political taboo is that the Seaway is jointly owned with Canada - though the U.S. owns outright two of the Seaway locks that all oceangoing ships must pass through.

 

The sovereignty issue hasn't stopped Canadians from pushing to close the locks at Chicago; early this year the Province of Ontario filed a motion with the U.S. Supreme Court that stated:

 

"Our waters are interconnected, and irreparable harm to U.S. states will almost certainly entail similar irreparable harm to Ontario."

 

The Great Lakes states could make the same argument against any trouble that might be sailing up the Seaway at this very moment."

 

 

 

Also, I would like to add... What about the water Canada DIVERTS INTO (more water than Illinois/Chicago diverts out via the Chicago Diversion) the Great Lakes via the Hudson Bay into Lake Superior? Why aren't they stopping that diversion and possible avenue of disease and invasive species to the Lakes?

 

I am glad that this is finally being reported on. I am torn here. I want to see industry on both sides flourish. Industry does not have to be shut down for the enviro to be truly protected. Yet, my heart still feels for a city like BFLO that was totally killed by the Seaway. I guess blood is thicker than water or a job (especially at this stage in my life) to me.

 

Quite a 21st Century "water war" is brewing.

 

Just another note... Notice the map entitled "Open Door Policy." Read where they just dicovered this year a "fish killing virus" up in Lake Superior. Where did that come from? Again, what about the "side door" up in Canada through the Arctic. Like I noted above many people forget about this avenue because it is so remote and not populated.

[MarkyMannn]

Unfortunately, you can't undo 50 years of economic back sliding.

 

Even if the Seaway closed tomorrow we've already lost so much manufacturing capacity and railroad infrastructure that it would take 15-20 years just to rebuild enough to be competetive. WNY is so Tax-unfriendly toward business that Buffalo would have a hard time attracting any significant new action.

 

Access to Canada is totally inadequate. The Peace Bridge has become a joke. The International Bridge from Black Rock to Fort Erie has to be close to 100 years old and nobody's even talking about replacing that.

 

As much as I would like to see Buffalo have a big economic turn around, there's so much to be done and nobody to step up and start the process!

 

Don't count out railroads so quick. Capacity is measured in more than just track. Plus there are 3 rr bridges between buffalo & Niagara Falls. Frontier yard would be re-opened. NS has put millions into Bison yard, plus huge up-grades to the old Erie southern tier line to build capacity

[ExiledInIllinois]

you bring such an interesting perspective to the backbone of how our country works. I take for granted the use and importance of our waterways to our health and economy. Water commerce to me seems like an ancient and outdated mode of doing business, yet you constantly remind me of how vital it still is in the modern world. Thanks.

 

 

 

I know I should be watching the Bills... But they suck.

 

Your point is exactly what I am trying to illustrate and why Chicago has always been a global player even know other rust belt cities have went done the tubes. Canada is the real problem here. They are playing off the US dysfunction. What demised BFLO made Toronto.

 

Back to Chicago... What made them a global power is still in play today. Water transport is still done very cheaply in Chicago to compete with the global market. Chicago has two doors to the globe. The canals or back door can stay open year round even through the thickest ice. The rest of the lake areas would like nothing more than closing that down.

 

The main Great Lakes paradigm here is pitted against the rogue "Chicago." They are a rogue because of the Chicao diversion... They aren't playing ball with the main paradigm, they never have. They are the "thorn" in the main establishment's side.

 

Think about it this way. If they close the Welland Canal/diversion down... That is the canal in Canada that bypasses the Niagara Falls (think of The falls as a natural dam, what you see is an "active spillway" for nothing more than "aesthetics")... If they close the eight locks on the Welland, Lake Erie's water elevation will RAISE by 6" to 12"! That also rasies the lake water in Huron and Lake Michigan by about 4" to 2" respectively.

 

This is a "water war." The lakes are nothing more than an artificail fishery made by the main paradigm in play. This is no different the unnatural situation created in the St. Lawrence, NYS Barge Canal System, Trent-Severn (Lake Ontario to Lake Huron canals) Welland, Chicago Diversion, The Soo, and the Ogoki Diversion (Canada through Superior via the Actric).

 

Who's the only "non-player" here? The Chicago Diversion. Yet, believe it or not the Chicago Diversion IS NEEDED for the general health of the lakes. Now do the global economic math it does for the Midwest region of the United States.

 

Indiana Study

 

“Indiana’s three-port system serves the world’s most productive industrial and agricultural region and relies on a combination of strategic location, specialized facilities and – most importantly – intermodal connections such as the Chicago locks to do so,” said Jody Peacock, director of corporate affairs for the Ports of Indiana. “The port and maritime activity on the Indiana lakeshore are responsible for 104,567 total jobs, $14.2 billion of economic activity and $567 million of state and local tax revenue. The Chicago locks are an essential piece of this infrastructure, and are vital to the overall economic health of Indiana’s lakeshore economy. Not to mention, the locks directly contribute to $1.9 billion in economic activity to the regional economy and 17,655 jobs themselves."

 

 

Ask yourself the question why Chicago and NW Indiana region can still compete with globe and others in the Great Lakes regions can't... Remember: grain out to the globe and steel in (seems hard to believe... But that is the grim reality with steel) from the globe.

 

The canals in Chicago also have a leg up with new container shipping... Almost 30 containers can be floated on a barge, now times that by a 8-15 barge tow that can float in 9 feet of water. Even know many think water and canal transport is out moded, this mode of transportaion given adequate geography is stil the cheapest. Water transport on the Amazon is what is making Brazil a global player in the grain market. We gotta stop thinking about what happened to Buffalo and the Erie Canal. Imagine if BFLO had a modern bulk water root to NYC that could stand the test of wiinter like it does in Chicago?

 

The main paradigm would like nothing more that shut the Chicago canals down (or at least make it cost a ton more money by replumbing it) before GLOBAL container shippping really takes off on the inland waterways of America.

 

Again... It may seem I am on one side of the debate. I am not, I am trying to bring the total perspective and scope of this situation. Let's not be hypocritical here and examine the whole situation.

[DC Tom]

Just another note... Notice the map entitled "Open Door Policy." Read where they just dicovered this year a "fish killing virus" up in Lake Superior. Where did that come from? Again, what about the "side door" up in Canada through the Arctic. Like I noted above many people forget about this avenue because it is so remote and not populated.

 

More likely came from the lower Great Lakes, since it's been in Erie and Ontario for a while.

 

Your point about the "back door" into the lakes is valid nonetheless.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Don't count out railroads so quick. Capacity is measured in more than just track. Plus there are 3 rr bridges between buffalo & Niagara Falls. Frontier yard would be re-opened. NS has put millions into Bison yard, plus huge up-grades to the old Erie southern tier line to build capacity

 

We need to find a way to shut down the St. Lawrence route... Make Canada irrlevant and "break bulk" through BFLO instead of bypassing BFLO. Grain is being shipped to the WORLD. Shut the Welland Canal down and intermodal the commodity through Western New York.

 

This would make BFLO geograhically relevant to the world instead of a dead-end right/starboard turn down lake or a dead-end left/hard port turn up the lake!

 

Now mix the new moded container shipping that enters from the globe or leaves out.tntra

 

If the enviros want to really want to protect the Great Lakes, sever all of the unnatural elements in the basin naviagtionally/industrially and leave the Great Lakes basin to recreation and INTRA-water transport. With this, I firmly believe BFLO can grow intermodally.

 

I am willing to throw Chicago under the bus, the way I see it now... The main Great Lakes paradigm will do nothing BUT screw BFLO economically. Enjoy your Bills in Toronto!

 

Shake the tree from the roots.

[ExiledInIllinois]

More likely came from the lower Great Lakes, since it's been in Erie and Ontario for a while.

 

Your point about the "back door" into the lakes is valid nonetheless.

 

I know, becuase they have just found it (fish killing virus) in Superior and it has been in other parts of the lower lakes. Yet, really no fuss until Superior has become infected. Why? Are they worried about the Ogoki Diversion and what happens if if gets into northern Ontario? Think of all the lakes and streams up there.

 

Usually Surperior is immune and the last to be affected. One of the 4 Asian carp is grass carp... They have been all over the lakes now... Except Superior... They are having a hard time moving through the Soo. Now open up the bio-virus threat and things get even scarier, no "door" is immune.

 

On the sampling front, here are the numbers from:

 

AsianCarp.org

 

I know I talk about this alot. I really wish more people would care...

 

Do the Bills really suck or what?

[Marv's Neighbor]

Don't count out railroads so quick. Capacity is measured in more than just track. Plus there are 3 rr bridges between buffalo & Niagara Falls. Frontier yard would be re-opened. NS has put millions into Bison yard, plus huge up-grades to the old Erie southern tier line to build capacity

I'm glad to hear that! Obviously you still live in the area and are more aware. Back to my point, how old are the Bridges into Canada? Both the International and Niagara Falls Suspension Bridges have to be between 80-100 years old. They may be adequate now but there's no way to easily expand them. IF Buffalo could make a turn around, they would be inadequate to say the least. Forget any type of high speed operations over those!

 

I grew up in S Buffalo. I've been gone since 1970, but when I get back am always amazed at how many RR overpasses are not even there anymore. How many former rights of way seem to be abandoned. They are a mirror of the areas economic decline. They didn't all go away overnight, but were gradually phased out and removed.

 

I hope Buffalo can turn around but it's been such a long slide down, it will take a lot to bring it back.

[ExiledInIllinois]

I'm glad to hear that! Obviously you still live in the area and are more aware. Back to my point, how old are the Bridges into Canada? Both the International and Niagara Falls Suspension Bridges have to be between 80-100 years old. They may be adequate now but there's no way to easily expand them. IF Buffalo could make a turn around, they would be inadequate to say the least. Forget any type of high speed operations over those!

 

I grew up in S Buffalo. I've been gone since 1970, but when I get back am always amazed at how many RR overpasses are not even there anymore. How many former rights of way seem to be abandoned. They are a mirror of the areas economic decline. They didn't all go away overnight, but were gradually phased out and removed.

 

I hope Buffalo can turn around but it's been such a long slide down, it will take a lot to bring it back.

 

On that note... With so much in BFLO gone and things wide open... Getting the right of way will be a breeze and CHEAP! My point is if they really want to get tough on protecting the Great Lakes, they need to seal it off... That means sealing a city like Toronto from global waterborne traffic. Let those commodities that ship through the St. Lawrence break bulk in other places... Like BFLO and then head to the coast.

 

You don't see NYS innvolved in the 5 state lawsuit against Illinois. Why? They were in on it when it went to the Supreme Court last spring. Why aren't they now? Doesn't NYS really want to protect the lakes? What are they afraid of by not jumping into this recent federal lawsuit?

 

Imagine if the Welland closed? The Welland has been the "super-highway" for all the invasive species that exist today in the lakes. This could only help BFLO restore any geographical transportation advantage that is once had.

[ExiledInIllinois]

If anybody is interested:

 

Here is an Indiana site that explains all the Great Lakes water diversions:

 

GL Water Diversion

 

Also, info on VHS or fish killing virus, this year (2010) it was found in Lake Superior for the first time:

 

VHS

 

Ebola-like virus killing Great Lakes fish

By: Katie Allison Granju, Producer

4/30/2007

By Dennis Cauchon

USA TODAY

 

From one post:

 

"This is the first time a virus has affected so many different fish species from so many fish families in the Great Lakes. VHS virus is an invasive species, but scientists are not sure how it arrived. It may have come in with migrating fish from the Atlantic Ocean or may have hitch-hiked in ballast water from ships."

 

 

Now, which begs the question that I hinted and DCTom touched on with a response. What can get into the Great Lakes via Ontario Canada's arctic diversions into the lakes? Surely a bio invasive like other virus can enter that way. This stuff thrives in cold water. Like Tom said, most likely this VHS didn't come that way because it was discoverd in Lake Superior last... But what is next? Swing around Hudson Bay and that is real close to Labrador and the St. Lawrence outlet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MarkyMannn]

I'm glad to hear that! Obviously you still live in the area and are more aware. Back to my point, how old are the Bridges into Canada? Both the International and Niagara Falls Suspension Bridges have to be between 80-100 years old. They may be adequate now but there's no way to easily expand them. IF Buffalo could make a turn around, they would be inadequate to say the least. Forget any type of high speed operations over those!

 

Well the Intl RR bridge was built in 1873 But today all traffic between the US and Canada comes over that bridge.

 

Of the 2 in the Falls, one was closed within the last 10 years or so, the second is only used for Amtrak