Fitzmagic Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 (edited) I had a discussion today with some people about abortion and if it is necessary. I believed that mistakes lead to abortions and people need to use protection...however... until it is illegal (it probably never will be) - I believe it is ultimately up to the woman to do what she wants. As wrong as it may seem - it is legal and the woman can make the decision. Now... Enter religion. The person I was speaking to was quick to go against the procedure which is absolutely fine with me... but... when you start explaining how "a soul enters the embryo which makes it a human" - I want no part of the discussion. I respect religious morals but I really wish people could speak practically sometimes. Edited October 2, 2010 by Rust Belt Brotherhood
Wacka Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 I had a discussion today with some people about abortion and if it is necessary. I believed that mistakes lead to abortions and people need to use protection...however... until it is illegal (it probably never will be) - I believe it is ultimately up to the woman to do what she wants. As wrong as it may seem - it is legal and the woman can make the decision. Now... Enter religion. The person I was speaking to was quick to go against the procedure which is absolutely fine with me... but... when you start explaining how "a soul enters the embryo which makes it a human" - I want no part of the discussion. I respect religious morals but I really wish people could speak practically sometimes. The fertilized egg is a unique human and is alive. It has it's own unique genome and meets all seven of the criteria for life.
Fitzmagic Posted October 2, 2010 Author Posted October 2, 2010 The fertilized egg is a unique human and is alive. It has it's own unique genome and meets all seven of the criteria for life. The exact answer I wanted to hear. Practical.
The Dean Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 The fertilized egg is a unique human and is alive. It has it's own unique genome and meets all seven of the criteria for life. But not HUMAN life.
UConn James Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 (edited) The exact answer I wanted to hear. Practical. Another practical answer is that if a woman doesn't want a child enough that she'll snuff it out in its genesis, if forced to by the law, she also wouldn't care very much about it after its brought to term. At the risk of being labeled something I'm not, I will point out the fact that 80 percent of abortions are performed for residents of inner cities. We have enough unloved children with parents who can't be bothered to give a crap, feeding at the public trough and becoming a burden to society, and having an extremely high likelihood of a life of drugs and crime. It's just not practical for society to pick up the tab nor are there nearly enough homes to adopt all of these children if they're required by law to be born. The more misanthropic I get in my older age, the more people who feel they're owed something just for being here and who hurt others b/c they're pissed about their lot in life, the less morally absolute I become. I don't advocate abortion from the rooftops, nor do I think people of whatever color skin pigment shouldn't breed, etc. It would be best if birth control were used and effective 100 percent of the time, but we don't live in that world, and so we arrive at a nitty-gritty. If a woman/couple is not going to care for or about her/their children, then it's probably better that they have the decision to not have them, and for this choice to be made at the earliest possible stage. Speaking as a borderline libertarian, this life is all about choices and dealing with the consequences. Running to the state and saying that Mary shouldn't be allowed to do X because I plum just don't agree with it is the worst kind of politics. The axiom holds that if you don't want to have an abortion, don't have one. Just as I don't want someone else having control over me, I don't deign to make other peoples' choices for themselves when they weigh their circumstances. On the legal front, almost 40 years on from Roe, the notion of stare juris has taken a firm hold. It would be specious for abortion law to change back and forth every time the political balance of the court changes. For something as big as a definition of murder, it needs to be a national coda rather than this definition varying from state to state. There's wiggle room for the law to change about parental notification, pre-procedure counseling, etc. but the core of the law has been set. Edited October 2, 2010 by UConn James
thebug Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 Potential human. So what else could it turn out to be, if not human?
GoodBye Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 So what else could it turn out to be, if not human? A human hybrid.
Tolstoy Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 (edited) On the business of souls, the ancient Greeks simply saw it as the principle of life in a living organism, that which gives the living body its ability to move and change of its own accord, and which holds the body together. The difference between a live animal at one moment, and that same animal dead in the very next instant, is the absence of such a self-moving principle. Now whether that soul lives on after death is another question entirely, but that all living things possess it (including plants) seems a relatively self-evident truth. To deny the existence of soul in a living being is to run the danger of mechanism, whereby all that an animal is, is material parts put together in the right way, so that nothing in principle distinguishes a human being from a pile of dirt--except, that our parts are organized more fittingly (and how does that happen, one wonders, if there is no recourse to "soul"?). So, of course fertilized embryos have a soul (they are alive, right?), and of course they are human (they are not frog, cow, or dog, right?), and the actual structure of this individual living human organism possesses all the potential for human activities, so it is an actual human person to my mind. Edited October 2, 2010 by Tolstoy
The Dean Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 So what else could it turn out to be, if not human? Nothing. It could not live long enough to become human.
ajzepp Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 In my opinion, one of the confounding factors in the abortion debate, and the one thing that makes this a topic that will likely never be debated objectively, is the fact that this is one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) issues that feminists tie their movement to. I'm sorry, but if I were starting some sort of "Overweight Bills Fan" group designed to fight for our rights, the last issue I would hang my hat on would be baby killing. If it were packaged as an, "it's my right to do with my body as I please" thing only, I'd support it 100%. But the fact that abortion itself is so intimately tied into that, and arguably THE main issue linked to a woman's right to sovreignty over her body, it's hard for me to be on board with the movement. I think it's asinine how often the "rape" example comes up. That happens in less than 1% of all abortion cases. The fact is, both men and women practice sex haphazzardly and irresponsibly, and as a result there are millions of unwanted pregnancies. If I were a feminist, I'd want to focus on preaching and practicing responsible behavior, not the right to terminate a pregnancy.
ieatcrayonz Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 If not human, what? Canadian? Potential human. So you're saying "Canadian with a glimmer of hope"?
LeviF Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 Once they prove, both factually and empirically, that human life begins at conception, I will be against abortion on the basis that it is murder. Until then, in my eyes, it's up to the woman.
Dan Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 Have you seen all the idiots running around the world? I say abortions should be mandatory.
The Dean Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 Have you seen all the idiots running around the world? I say abortions should be mandatory. Nice new avatar, BTW. I'm no fan of the Buffalo w/Ribbon, but that is one of the nicer presentations I have seen of that logo. It is a nice clean look.
Dan Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 Nice new avatar, BTW. I'm no fan of the Buffalo w/Ribbon, but that is one of the nicer presentations I have seen of that logo. It is a nice clean look. Thanks. It's an old one. I found it lurking in an old directory from the late 90's. Not sure where I downloaded it from; maybe hyperbills.
Arkady Renko Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 The axiom holds that if you don't want to have an abortion, don't have one. Just as I don't want someone else having control over me, I don't deign to make other peoples' choices for themselves when they weigh their circumstances. It really comes down to whether we view all abortions as murder, some as murder or none as murder. If it is indeed murder, your axiom makes little sense because it is not just someone's "choices for themselves when they weigh their circumstances."
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