fansince88 Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 Anybody here ever get a raise at work. How much harder do you work? Dont have a problem locking up Kelsay. Rebuilding people! Keep the top of what you got and unload the rest. If he has a stronger supporting staff he is a better player.
TheChimp Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 Anybody here ever get a raise at work. How much harder do you work? Dont have a problem locking up Kelsay. Rebuilding people! Keep the top of what you got and unload the rest. If he has a stronger supporting staff he is a better player. You're just the guy I have been looking for to sell my broken toaster to for $1000.
sllib olaffub Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 (edited) I don't see things that way. In Kelsay we have an OLB who is no good, who is exploited by our opposition, and who was no good as a DE, either. Unless I'm way out of touch with salaries in the NFL, you take six million a year and you can pay for a legit NFL starting OLB - one who, I'd say, should average six to eight sacks a year. Not two years. The bit about having to replace another area - the way he's played it should be capable of finding a low round rookie to take his place. Danny Batten, next year, should be that man. I just don't see how we could do much worse lining up just about any serviceable OLB that is looking for a modest contract, or a rookie. I would rather see us try out a few rookies at the spot and have them actually play worse than for us to accept mediocrity at a position, give it a pretty high pay check, and say we're not pursuing upgrades. Man, at his salary, wouldn't that mean a good OLB is going to cost us like 10 or more million a year? What the heck kind of presidence is this setting? It would not surprise me to see, after this season, Nix or Gailey fighting about someone going over their head and doing this - because it doesn't make sense and I just can't see Nix and Gailey being happy with Kelsay's production. It could be the Edwards move, and this one, are being done by someone else, and these guys are being told to deal with it. Either way, yet again, it reflects negatively on our team and the cause and effect consequences of this are just crap. By the way, this means we're paying Kelsay more than - whatever it ends up being - a million dollars a year per sack!! Edited October 2, 2010 by sllib olaffub
papazoid Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 paying Kelsay $6mil/yr is like saying he is close to being one of the top ten LB's in the NFL. below are 2009 franchise and transistion tag values for linebackers. ( i couldn't find the same chart for 2010 but some players got new deals like Patrick Willis) Linebackers 2009 Player Total DeMarcus Ware $11,435,693 Karlos Dansby $9,678,000 Brian Urlacher $9,175,511 Keith Bulluck $9,108,670 Bart Scott $9,000,000 » Franchise: $9.68 million. Brandon Chillar $7,906,250 Joey Porter $7,200,000 Terrell Suggs $7,020,000 Calvin Pace $6,686,862 Lance Briggs $6,516,666 » Transition: $8.373 million.
....lybob Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 Mulled it over and no resigning Kelsay still doesn't make sense, no way and no how - save that six mill a year and when we are done with Chan and Nix use that money for better management and coaching.
Conch Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 paying Kelsay $6mil/yr is like saying he is close to being one of the top ten LB's in the NFL. below are 2009 franchise and transistion tag values for linebackers. ( i couldn't find the same chart for 2010 but some players got new deals like Patrick Willis) Linebackers 2009 Player Total DeMarcus Ware $11,435,693 Karlos Dansby $9,678,000 Brian Urlacher $9,175,511 Keith Bulluck $9,108,670 Bart Scott $9,000,000 » Franchise: $9.68 million. Brandon Chillar $7,906,250 Joey Porter $7,200,000 Terrell Suggs $7,020,000 Calvin Pace $6,686,862 Lance Briggs $6,516,666 » Transition: $8.373 million. But Kelsay is about the 50th ranked player at his spot out of 64. You can easily get a draft pick and plug him in every three years. Overpay TE, Kelsay,Fitz...trade instead of pay Greer, Winfield, Clemens, Lynch (probable), Peters. It is a pretty Black vs White policy.
Sisyphean Bills Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 But Kelsay is about the 50th ranked player at his spot out of 64. You can easily get a draft pick and plug him in every three years. Overpay TE, Kelsay,Fitz...trade instead of pay Greer, Winfield, Clemens, Lynch (probable), Peters. It is a pretty Black vs White policy. They paid Stroud, Owens, Evans, Dockery, Walker.
Swift Sylvan Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 The thing is Kelsay was on the team when we had the #2 ranked defense several years ago. He might not be worth the 6 million, he might be out of position, but he CAN be part of a really good defense as a starting player. Maybe he needs more talent around him for that to work.....but he should be able to be serviceable at least.
San-O Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 The thing is Kelsay was on the team when we had the #2 ranked defense several years ago. He might not be worth the 6 million, he might be out of position, but he CAN be part of a really good defense as a starting player. Maybe he needs more talent around him for that to work.....but he should be able to be serviceable at least. You are suggesting building "around" Kelsay? Wow. Seriously. Kelsay needs more talent around him to HIDE him, because he has none. $6 Mil for Kelsay. His agent has to be laughing his A$$ off.
BillsVet Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 The thing is Kelsay was on the team when we had the #2 ranked defense several years ago. He might not be worth the 6 million, he might be out of position, but he CAN be part of a really good defense as a starting player. Maybe he needs more talent around him for that to work.....but he should be able to be serviceable at least. Seriously? He was a LDE in Greggo's defense and that was like a century ago and now he's being used as a LOLB in the 3-4. Buffalo hasn't played the 34 since 2000, so I think a lot of fans lose sight of what's being asked of whomever plays this position. Bills 34 LB responsibilities This is an explanation of what's expected of a LOLB (what Kelsay plays) and he's not good enough in coverage to handle the job. His agility and quickness allow opposing TE's to run all over the field, as Jermichael Finley and Gronkowski/Hernandez have done the past 2 weeks. He is a two down player in this defense being paid as if he's a three down guy. A normal front office would use their pro personnel staff to evaluate who's working in the new scheme. And Doug Whaley being the man heading that department, I can't for a second believe he advocated paying decent to good money for a part time player. This move came from someone else, which is more indication that football people aren't making the football decisions, regardless of Nix/Whaley/Gailey being on board.
artmalibu Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 (edited) Every one wants to say he is over paid and compare him to other players, but haven't seen any one post about how many tackles he makes!! He may only give you half the sacks as the big name guys but he makes a lot of tackles. Its early yet but he is on pace to make over 100 tackles this year. If he can make close to 100 tackles in a season and 4 to 7 sacks pay the man!! Only 9 outside backers have more tackles than him and 64 start each week. Edited October 3, 2010 by artmalibu
San-O Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 Seriously? He was a LDE in Greggo's defense and that was like a century ago and now he's being used as a LOLB in the 3-4. Buffalo hasn't played the 34 since 2000, so I think a lot of fans lose sight of what's being asked of whomever plays this position. Bills 34 LB responsibilities This is an explanation of what's expected of a LOLB (what Kelsay plays) and he's not good enough in coverage to handle the job. His agility and quickness allow opposing TE's to run all over the field, as Jermichael Finley and Gronkowski/Hernandez have done the past 2 weeks. He is a two down player in this defense being paid as if he's a three down guy. A normal front office would use their pro personnel staff to evaluate who's working in the new scheme. And Doug Whaley being the man heading that department, I can't for a second believe he advocated paying decent to good money for a part time player. This move came from someone else, which is more indication that football people aren't making the football decisions, regardless of Nix/Whaley/Gailey being on board. So there is an ulterior motive for this signing? That would be a possible explanation, in the lack of any other. What's your guess? You hint at one.
BillsVet Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 Every one wants to say he is over paid and compare him to other players, but haven't seen any one post about how many tackles he makes!! He may only give you half the sacks as the big name guys but he makes a lot of tackles. Its early yet but he is on pace to make over 100 tackles this year. If he can make close to 100 tackles in a season and 4 to 7 sacks pay the man!! London Fletcher made a lot of tackles and people around here called him overrated. Next to passer rating, tackles are the most worthless statistic in the NFL. And according to ESPN, the Redskins have 3 of the top 10 tacklers in the NFL on their team. And guess what? Their defense has stunk it up this season. Besides, two of those guys were DB's: Laron Landry and Deangelo Hall. That's never good. So there is an ulterior motive for this signing? That would be a possible explanation, in the lack of any other. What's your guess? You hint at one. I think RW likes him and didn't want him going anywhere. And so he ordered Overdorf to get it done without much input from Nix or Whaley. Complete speculation on my part, but I can't see another NFL team vying for his services or offering anything close to what Buffalo did. Nor can I see experienced personnel guys like Nix or Whaley pushing for the guy to get a new deal. It's almost as if they had some extra money burning a whole in their pocket and decided that Kelsay's been a good soldier so he deserves more for not grumbling about the embarrassing nature of this franchise.
Swift Sylvan Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 You are suggesting building "around" Kelsay? Wow. Seriously. Kelsay needs more talent around him to HIDE him, because he has none. $6 Mil for Kelsay. His agent has to be laughing his A$$ off. It's more of a trying to rationalize why he was extended than suggest we build around a 31 year old converted LDE to OLB as to try to understand the front office better...
San-O Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 It's more of a trying to rationalize why he was extended than suggest we build around a 31 year old converted LDE to OLB as to try to understand the front office better... Sorry. My bad. See BillsVet remarks? We all mey ne barking up the wrong tree if Ralph just decided we wants him.
Swift Sylvan Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 Sorry. My bad. See BillsVet remarks? We all mey ne barking up the wrong tree if Ralph just decided we wants him. It's all good, perhaps if I had the abilities to watch the games I would be more aware of just how poorly Kelsay is playing. The thing is, at times he is an unsung productive player. I remember in 2006 when he had the most stops for no gain or behind the line of scrimmage where 1 in 6 tackles were in that category (Chris Brown mentioned this in his awards for that season). He certainly can be clutch (new Orleans last year with a sack putting them out of FG range at the time when we were still in the game) it's just a question of is he worth keeping around? Will his play improve as the defense becomes more used to a 3-4? If he is, will what we pay him have any effect on relationships with other players or chance of attracting free agents.
dave mcbride Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 You are suggesting building "around" Kelsay? Wow. Seriously. Kelsay needs more talent around him to HIDE him, because he has none. $6 Mil for Kelsay. His agent has to be laughing his A$$ off. Earlier in this thread and in the other Kelsay thread, it was pretty firmly established that he's not going to make $6 million per year. I thought that this figure had been so clearly debunked, that people would stop claiming it, but apparently not. Myths take on a life of their own, I guess ...
artmalibu Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 London Fletcher made a lot of tackles and people around here called him overrated. Next to passer rating, tackles are the most worthless statistic in the NFL. And according to ESPN, the Redskins have 3 of the top 10 tacklers in the NFL on their team. And guess what? Their defense has stunk it up this season. Besides, two of those guys were DB's: Laron Landry and Deangelo Hall. That's never good. Say what you want about London, did we replace him with a better guy? Or even a guy that can play every week like London has, who has not missed a game. To say that tackles are a worthless stat for a guy that plays at the line of scrimmage is crazy.
BillsVet Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 Say what you want about London, did we replace him with a better guy? Or even a guy that can play every week like London has, who has not missed a game. To say that tackles are a worthless stat for a guy that plays at the line of scrimmage is crazy. I did not advocate allowing Fletcher to go in 07, given that they had no one on the roster to replace him, and the guy was indeed very durable. He actually played the Tampa 2 better in 06 than I think Posluszny did in 08-09. As for the tackle statistic, one could argue that a tackle made by a DB 10 yards downfield counts as much as one made 2 yards off the LOS by a LB. Yet, there is little to differentiate the two from each other. It's also a stat that's subjective in that teams and other sites assign them differently, so there's debate about who gets credit and who doesn't sometimes. All in all, not a good judge of talent many times.
artmalibu Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 I did not advocate allowing Fletcher to go in 07, given that they had no one on the roster to replace him, and the guy was indeed very durable. He actually played the Tampa 2 better in 06 than I think Posluszny did in 08-09. As for the tackle statistic, one could argue that a tackle made by a DB 10 yards downfield counts as much as one made 2 yards off the LOS by a LB. Yet, there is little to differentiate the two from each other. It's also a stat that's subjective in that teams and other sites assign them differently, so there's debate about who gets credit and who doesn't sometimes. All in all, not a good judge of talent many times. Then how exactly should you judge talent of a defender who plays in the box? Anyone who wants to argue that a tackle made 6 yards further is the same is crazy. So what criteria have you used to evaluate Kelasy? I would love to know!
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