Sisyphean Bills Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 Dude seriously...How long have you been around here? You honestly think Folks on this site don't understand how NFL Contracts work? If you ever intend to have your side considered you gotta stop insulting the collective intelligence around here..Cause there may be a few meat-heads, but by and large there are some VERY knowledgeable NFL Fans on this Board who most definitely understand the ins and outs of Contracts, the Cap, etc... We understand...We still think it was a dumb Deal by a Team that seemingly is trying to set some kind of record for poor decisions... So what else do we not understand about the NFL and it's inner workings? He/she joined the board last week. The hilarious post was that he/she accused this board, of all places, of suffering group think.
dave mcbride Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 He/she joined the board last week. The hilarious post was that he/she accused this board, of all places, of suffering group think. But he's basically right about the contract misunderstanding here.
RuntheDamnBall Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 Is anybody here old enough to remember the prehistoric days when Bills perennially had among the best LB corps in the league? Apparently not, judging by the twists used to justify the Kelsay extension. Are you saying that Kelsay is worth that much more than Keith Bulluck's $2.5 million, or Jason Taylor's $3.5 mil (if he hits all incentives)? Dear god. It just looks worse and worse any way you slice it. This is a serious question to OP... if Chris Kelsay is a free agent, what does he get on the open market? I can guarantee you he gets nowhere near 4yr $24mil and that is why people are so upset with the move This.
Sisyphean Bills Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 But he's basically right about the contract misunderstanding here. In what way?
dave mcbride Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 (edited) Dear god. It just looks worse and worse any way you slice it. This. He's not going to get $24 million for 4 years unless he's all world! In which case we should be happy!! In what way? I guess I shouldn't be speaking for him, but what the hell. Kelsay appears to be getting a sum of $2.4 million for signing his life over to the Bills for the next four seasons. If he fails spectacularly to perform either this year or next off-season or suffers a grievous injury, the Bills in all likelihood will be able to get rid of him at no extra cost. The BS $24 million number is PR - it makes the Bills look generous, and it makes the agent look like he's good. The one positive thing it can do is incentivize Kelsay to perform at a high level. Otherwise, he'll be gone. The only downside that I can see in all of this is that he goes on IR next preseason. Then the Bills have to pay him a chunk of change ($2 million plus whatever the roster bonus is in 2011: http://www.macsfootballblog.com/2010/09/chris-kelsay-contract-details.html )no matter what. He's never been on IR before, though, so I wouldn't count on it. Edited September 30, 2010 by dave mcbride
Sisyphean Bills Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 (edited) I guess I shouldn't be speaking for him, but what the hell. Kelsay appears to be getting a sum of $2.4 million for signing his life over to the Bills for the next four seasons. If he fails spectacularly to perform either this year or next off-season or suffers a grievous injury, the Bills in all likelihood will be able to get rid of him at no extra cost. The BS $24 million number is PR - it makes the Bills look generous, and it makes the agent look like he's good. The one positive thing it can do is incentivize Kelsay to perform at a high level. Otherwise, he'll be gone. The only downside that I can see in all of this is that he goes on IR next preseason. Then the Bills have to pay him a chunk of change no matter what. He's never been on IR before, though, so I wouldn't count on it. Thanks. I was asking seriously, because I had no idea what you were getting at. It's hard to see any substance behind his posts because he is so upset he is in such a small minority on the subject. Obviously, the Bills could cut him. That's a red herring at best; I doubt the entire board was seriously confused that Kelsay couldn't be cut at some point. On the other hand, well run teams don't re-do a contract less than 1 month into the season on a guy they are planning to cut quickly ... but, it is the Bills so who !@#$ing knows what they will do next. Anyway, putting the homer glasses on... Thank God they didn't let Chris "Highly Coveted" Kelsay hit the open market and in comparison to the value they're getting from the Bust Maybin contract, this really is a solid deal for the team too. Edited September 30, 2010 by Sisyphean Bills
dave mcbride Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 Thanks. I was asking seriously, because I had no idea what you were getting at. It's hard to see any substance behind his posts because he is so upset he is in such a small minority on the subject. Obviously, the Bills could cut him. That's a red herring at best; I doubt the entire board was seriously confused that Kelsay couldn't be cut at some point. On the other hand, well run teams don't re-do a contract less than 1 month into the season on a guy they are planning to cut quickly ... but, it is the Bills so who !@#$ing knows what they will do next. Anyway, putting the homer glasses on... Thank God they didn't let Chris "Highly Coveted" Kelsay hit the open market and in comparison to the value they're getting from the Bust Maybin contract, this really is a solid deal for the team too. Believe me, I don't mean to defend Bills management, which is generally terrible. I just think that this case is pretty innocuous and not that stupid. See my link to the Mac's football blog site above. His base is $2 million in 2011, and the contract is backloaded. It's filled with incentives/roster bonuses, so the cited number of $24 million is clearly puffery.
K Gun Special Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 Believe me, I don't mean to defend Bills management, which is generally terrible. I just think that this case is pretty innocuous and not that stupid. See my link to the Mac's football blog site above. His base is $2 million in 2011, and the contract is backloaded. It's filled with incentives/roster bonuses, so the cited number of $24 million is clearly puffery. Fair point, but until we know the actual guaranteed amount.......
T master Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 The guy has a lot of heart, but why now ?? Why couldn't they have waited till the end of the season ?? We have other things that also need fixing and now with 4 year contract extention hooked to him what would happen say if another team had a trade in mind that might involve Kelsy to a team that was a better fit for him - say a 3-4 D scheme but they want him for less Cashe !!!! Now that ain't gonna happen . I just don't get with the direction of the team changing to a younger roster why they would resign some one that every one considers some what of a liability to the defensive side of the ball ??
KOKBILLS Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 But he's basically right about the contract misunderstanding here. Well the only understanding I have is the Contract should have never been done...Even for the Vet minimum...And I'm dead serious about that...Kelsay does not fit a 3-4, and he was average at best as a 4-3 DE...This Team needs to move on from the Kelsay's (and the Whitner's, and the...) and add Players who can truly play...Period...And that is with all due respect to Kelsay as a Teammate and good guy which I recognize is true...Still does not matter to me...IMHO He should not be on the Team now...This is a team in full re-build mode...They need to get the young guys work... My only misunderstanding of this contract is why it was done in the first place...
dave mcbride Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 (edited) Well the only understanding I have is the Contract should have never been done...Even for the Vet minimum...And I'm dead serious about that...Kelsay does not fit a 3-4, and he was average at best as a 4-3 DE...This Team needs to move on from the Kelsay's (and the Whitner's, and the...) and add Players who can truly play...Period...And that is with all due respect to Kelsay as a Teammate and good guy which I recognize is true...Still does not matter to me...IMHO He should not be on the Team now...This is a team in full re-build mode...They need to get the young guys work... My only misunderstanding of this contract is why it was done in the first place... Fair point; my beef is with people thinking he's being paid like a superstar. He isn't. Fair point, but until we know the actual guaranteed amount....... I would bet a fair amount of money that roster bonuses are the only quasi-guarantees he'll have. That is, if past history is an accurate predictor, around March 1 every year the Bills will have to make decision about whether they really want him. If they do, they'll have to give him some money albeit not his salary for that year if he doesn't make the final regular-season roster. If they decide they don't want him at the beginning of March they can cut him without paying him anything. Edited September 30, 2010 by dave mcbride
RuntheDamnBall Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 He's not going to get $24 million for 4 years unless he's all world! In which case we should be happy!! That's all well and good but I see it as a cardinal rule of sports management that you do NOT ever give a guy a contract that no other team would even come close to. I'm not sure what would have been lost by letting Kelsay ride out the season, seeing if we actually got any improvement in his transition to the 3-4, then evaluating. If he's such a good guy, I'm guessing the Bills' offer would come close to what he's looking for in the offseason anyway. Even $2MM extra is money they can't give to someone else, and I agree with the posters who are baffled by the Bills rewarding mediocrity while playing hardball with other players. Meanwhile the Bills wouldn't have been dishing out more money to a guy whose play could be described as average at best, and is seen by many as a liability. In this type of free agency climate, the Bills would have let Bruce go in 1991 and signed Jeff Wright to a 7 year extension. And Wright was more accomplished than a lot of guys in our front seven, which is pathetic. I guess if you are a believer and think the best is yet to come for the guy, it makes sense to control that asset. It's just that there's no evidence to suggest that that will be the case. This is like a 180 on what happened with Pat Williams (whose play at the time certainly merited more faith in the future than has Kelsay's).
SwampD Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 Do you understand they can just cut him two years down the road with almost no penalty? Do you understand how much Stroud and McGee are making? Do you understand that it takes some time to adjust from a 4-3 to a 3-4? Do you understand they have little chance of landing a top OLB in free agency? Would you prefer to spend one of the first two picks in the draft on an OLB rather than QB/OT? You must work for the Bills PR department don't you? It's the only thing that makes sense to me about someone trying this hard to justify Kelsey's contract.
Reed83HOF Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 Yes, I understand the logic of extending him, but not at that price. I highly doubt that Kelsay would command that kind of cash in the open market. When you see an Ayodele, Mitchell and Torbor be marginlaly worse than Kelsay at the OLB position at a fraction of the cost, you have to scratch your head. Of course this rebuilding will take time. But it's also a crack that the entire rebuild will take place through the draft, especially with the crappy draft record of this crew in a decade. So, you will need to add quality FAs to the mix. By allocating such a big $$ number to Kelsay, under Ralph's cash to cap empire, you naturally have less cash availble to a superstar or even a decent player. I cannot and do not disagree with the amount they resigned him for...I do feel it was too high of a number, but act of resigning him really doesn't make or break this team. Could the extra couple million they overpaid for him be used elsewhere...it sure could've...
Reed83HOF Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 This is a meaningless argument. Not extending Kelsay now does NOT mean there is another hole to fill. (That only happens if they cut him today to sign a street free agent.) Extending him now only prevents him from hitting the open market when his contract is up. A team that isn't completely dysfunctional would be able to realize exactly what Kelsay is being asked to do here, be able to accurately access his open market value, and have on the radar screen their options. The latter point should be stressed and repeated. A professionally run team always has some ideas about options because players get injured, players retire, and situations change. Extending Kelsay now says that the Bills do not want him on the open market because they think he is highly prized; that if he were to hit the open market, that other teams would be bidding on him and drive up his price and possibly significantly higher than they were willing to pay. Who the hell are these teams? Which teams are still running the Tampa-2 (or a defense that relies on undersized DEs) and will throw out a contract at more than $6M/yr for Kelsay? (The Bills say they are trying to get away from that sort of defense!) Furthermore, it suggests that they think Kelsay is the very best option they have at OLB for the next few seasons. That his terrible play as he transitions to OLB cannot be replaced easily by picking up some other player. To that, all one can ask is WTF?!? This isn't criticism of Chris Kelsay as a human being. I wish him and his family the best, and this is no doubt great news to them. But, this is clearly a strategic miscalculation on the part of the Bills FO. It's blunders like paying top dollar for below average production, see Derrick Dockery, that make this team a statistical outlier in their ineptness and inability to compete. It's all about making bad decisions. Actually what's bolded is a meaningless and thoughtless comment. When Nix came in he stated that the Bills need to focus on resigning on players they have and not just replacing them with new FAs they bring in. Who the hell (other than you) suggested that the reasoning was to prevent another team from driving up the cost. I think it is apparent to most that it is taking care of your players you want before their contract is up. Is Kelsay worth what he is being paid in this extension? No...But was it a terribile decision to resign him? No...Why bother to let him go after the season that creates another hole... If you were a contract employee and enjoyed working for that particular organization, wouldn't you hope that they were at least pleased enough with our body of work that they extended you before your contract was up?
GG Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 Believe me, I don't mean to defend Bills management, which is generally terrible. I just think that this case is pretty innocuous and not that stupid. See my link to the Mac's football blog site above. His base is $2 million in 2011, and the contract is backloaded. It's filled with incentives/roster bonuses, so the cited number of $24 million is clearly puffery. It still doesn't add up to $20 mil. There's about $4-$5 mil missing in there when you add up the salary numebrs and the '10 bonus.
BEAST MODE BABY! Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 (edited) You must work for the Bills PR department don't you? It's the only thing that makes sense to me about someone trying this hard to justify Kelsey's contract. Like I mentioned earlier, I think the OP has some affiliation with the Bills. Furthermore, the OP states that no one here really understands contracts. Then someone mentions they have negotiated pro contracts before. Then the OP attacks his credibility. The OP wants it both ways. And to build off another persons point, according to the OP, the fact that most people were pissed when Pat Williams was let go was also group think lol. Edited September 30, 2010 by BEAST MODE BABY!
dave mcbride Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 It still doesn't add up to $20 mil. There's about $4-$5 mil missing in there when you add up the salary numebrs and the '10 bonus. If you read the Mac's football site, in all likelihood it's hidden in roster bonuses, which he doesn't have access too. Those aren't guaranteed unless, you know, he makes the roster.
GG Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 If you read the Mac's football site, in all likelihood it's hidden in roster bonuses, which he doesn't have access too. Those aren't guaranteed unless, you know, he makes the roster. With agents being smarter than your average bear, "roster" bonuses are usually due in March, so my guess is that Kelsay's 2011 roster bonus would be on March 1, 2011 to elevate the low salary level. So it's highly unlikely that he gets cut in March, leaving the Bills without an upgrade at OLB or a $4 million backup OLB. Mickey Mouse planning.
Sisyphean Bills Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 Actually what's bolded is a meaningless and thoughtless comment. When Nix came in he stated that the Bills need to focus on resigning on players they have and not just replacing them with new FAs they bring in. Absolutely totally irrelevant to the point. When a player becomes a free agent they aren't precluded from re-signing with their original team. Who the hell (other than you) suggested that the reasoning was to prevent another team from driving up the cost. Take a course in basic economics. If you allow something that is valued by more than 1 party to be bid on, then those parties will bid up the price. Supply and demand. I think it is apparent to most that it is taking care of your players you want before their contract is up. Is Kelsay worth what he is being paid in this extension? No...But was it a terribile decision to resign him? No...Why bother to let him go after the season that creates another hole... At the time, the rumors were that Kelsay would be one of the highest paid players at his new position. I, and others, happen to think he is awful at that position. Forgive me if I don't see the "enlightened" value proposition in that scenario. Why rush to invest more money in a risky investment when you simply don't have to? There are 14 more weeks to the season and there is time after the season. There is no need to rush, and that's a fact, not a thoughtless comment. If you were a contract employee and enjoyed working for that particular organization, wouldn't you hope that they were at least pleased enough with our body of work that they extended you before your contract was up? Many players have no such desire. They actually covet becoming free agents and getting a big contract and having the ability to choose where they want to play. I don't begrudge Kelsay one iota.
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