billsfan714 Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 I agree with you, but don't give Modrak a free pass. You can join the chorus of morons and insist that Modrak is just being out-voted when it comes to the draft room in April, but I ain't buyin'. If nobody listens to Modrak's advice, then why should he get a paycheck? And where are Ralph, the coaching staff, GM, etc getting their information on who to pick from, exactly? Aren't the scouts and ultimately Modrak in charge of compiling all college information so that our war room can make the selections in the first place? So if the coach, GM, owner, etc deviate from the plan...they have to deviate somewhere. Who is compiling that information? Isn't Modrak in charge of that? To put it all on Littman and Overdork- while I feel they are largely responsible- is to say that our draft picks this decade have been good. Totally agree with your opinion of not letting Modrak off the hook. The Modrak apologists always act like he was outvoted. But somebody in the scouting department had to write a glowing report on Donte, Maybin, JP, Hardy, etc.
PromoTheRobot Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 Totally agree with your opinion of not letting Modrak off the hook. The Modrak apologists always act like he was outvoted. But somebody in the scouting department had to write a glowing report on Donte, Maybin, JP, Hardy, etc. Look, we don't know how many picks are by Modrak, Ralph Wilson, Dick Jauron or the UPS delivery guy. This is all conjecture. Not sticking up for anyone. Just pointing out we are blaming people with no facts behind our accusations. PTR
notwoz Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 Look, we don't know how many picks are by Modrak, Ralph Wilson, Dick Jauron or the UPS delivery guy. This is all conjecture. Not sticking up for anyone. Just pointing out we are blaming people with no facts behind our accusations. PTR Why should anyone on this (or any) board let the facts stand in the way of a post? If that were the case, there wouldn't be any traffic on this site.
GG Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 Look, we don't know how many picks are by Modrak, Ralph Wilson, Dick Jauron or the UPS delivery guy. This is all conjecture. Not sticking up for anyone. Just pointing out we are blaming people with no facts behind our accusations. PTR You're right. Let's stick to the fact that Bills last 10 drafts were horrible. Blame the taxi driver.
John from Riverside Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 Mort would sound more believable if he'd quit bringing up TD. TD started out ok, but then became paranoid, that began his downfall. Everyone keeps pointing the finger at Ralph for al lthe problems. Maybe it really isn't him making the bad decisions, but has been Littman and Overdolf. Granted RW has hired them, but would be interesting to know if that is where the problem really is. Agreed....if he would stop bring up his bosom buddy he would sound much more credable......
stony Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 You're right. Let's stick to the fact that Bills last 10 drafts were horrible. Blame the taxi driver. yes they were. going 2/7 every year doesn not = success.
wonderbread Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 The real point of all this is Mort can B word from up on high but whats Donahue doing now? Duffing the tee shot on Oakmont?
Captain Caveman Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 (edited) No, its just that the truth hurts in Buffalo. Mort has been on the money with everything he has said- and that is an irrefutable fact. You need some schooling on the merits of an irrefutable fact. I'm not disputing the fact that we've been a bad team for ten years. That's a fact. Donahoe, left to his own devices would have run this franchise into the ground. The fact that Ralph did so on his own after firing Donahoe doesn't change that. As another poster pointed out, if Donahoe was such a great GM, why is he currently sitting on his duff? Edited September 30, 2010 by Captain Caveman
Rico Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/34627/nfl-with-chris-mortensen Jeff (Atlanta, GA) Long suffering Buffalo Bills fan. Any light at the end of the tunnel Chris? We might be the...GASP...worst team in the NFL right now...even worse than the Raiders. What do they need to address? Chris Mortensen (12:07 PM) The owner and the people who whisper in his ear need to just back off and let his football people do their job. Ralph Wilson Jr is in the Hall of fame because of what he did in the 60s and I do believe his loyalty to Buffalo is admirable. But he fired Bill Polian and John Butler couldn't wait to get out of there. And there were a lot of good things Tom Donahoe was doing, and could have continued doing, if he had been left alone. I know those aren't popular words but the best hope now is give GM Buddy Nix and HC Chan Gailey the resources and leave them alone! Gee, wonder who he's referring to there? More evidence that Overdorf and Littman are continuing to run this team into the ground. Everyone out there knows it except for a small band of misguided faithful here at TBD... Right on, Mort.
RJ (not THAT RJ) Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 Mort and the now-fashionable Ralph-bashers do keep missing the crucial point. Ralph hired Donohoe and made him Team President in the hope that he, Ralph, could pull back more or less completely from running the team and leave it in the hands of a "football man." That is what he did, and all observers realized it at the time and commented on it. TD had total control; you will notice there were no limits on free agents or spending during his tenure. By 2005, though, TD's manifest failure to turn the team around brought that experiment to an end, resulting in the Marv II debacle. If TD had turned out as Ralph and others had expected, he would still be running the team. This is not to defend Ralph's management since 2006, but simply to say that Mort and his ilk should be careful about trying to link their Ralph-bashing to praise of Tom Donohoe. That dog don't hunt.
Buftex Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 Mort and the now-fashionable Ralph-bashers do keep missing the crucial point. Ralph hired Donohoe and made him Team President in the hope that he, Ralph, could pull back more or less completely from running the team and leave it in the hands of a "football man." That is what he did, and all observers realized it at the time and commented on it. TD had total control; you will notice there were no limits on free agents or spending during his tenure. By 2005, though, TD's manifest failure to turn the team around brought that experiment to an end, resulting in the Marv II debacle. If TD had turned out as Ralph and others had expected, he would still be running the team. This is not to defend Ralph's management since 2006, but simply to say that Mort and his ilk should be careful about trying to link their Ralph-bashing to praise of Tom Donohoe. That dog don't hunt. First...Ralph bashing has always been fashionable, to anyone paying attention. Second...you are missing the point that, yes, Donohoe had some failures, but he was a master of working the salary cap, and staying within the constraints of what the Bills could afford to spend. Say what you will about his spending, but there are few examples of him overpaying for guys, who contributed nothing, and left the Bills paying them after they departed. He wasn't afraid to say goodbye to marginal players like Kelsay, and while he might have signed a Derrick Dockery or Langston Walker, he wouldn't have thrown the kind of money at them that his predecessors did. Lastly, while he had his failures, the Buffalo Bills franchise was still considered amongst the better franchises in the legue while he was there. It was fine for Mr Wilson to fire him, because the record wasn't there...but he hasn't had a clue what to do since.
RJ (not THAT RJ) Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 First...Ralph bashing has always been fashionable, to anyone paying attention. Second...you are missing the point that, yes, Donohoe had some failures, but he was a master of working the salary cap, and staying within the constraints of what the Bills could afford to spend. Say what you will about his spending, but there are few examples of him overpaying for guys, who contributed nothing, and left the Bills paying them after they departed. He wasn't afraid to say goodbye to marginal players like Kelsay, and while he might have signed a Derrick Dockery or Langston Walker, he wouldn't have thrown the kind of money at them that his predecessors did. Lastly, while he had his failures, the Buffalo Bills franchise was still considered amongst the better franchises in the legue while he was there. It was fine for Mr Wilson to fire him, because the record wasn't there...but he hasn't had a clue what to do since. Ah, I see. So now we all love TD again, so that we can all hate Big Daddy again. Fair enough. Too much revisionism on TD is not a good idea. He did sign Jeff Posey, after all... and the failures to address the O-line effectively were a constant refrain on TBD during his tenure.
Keukasmallies Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 Ralph is the owner, boss, etc. If he doesn't agree w/ the decisions his staff members make, he could make some changes. Ralph bears ultimate responsibility; kudos when things go well, barbs when the wheels fall off (like the last ten years!). Ralph may not be keenly incisive in all matters surrounding the Bills, but he must have an inkling that all is not well at 1BD. So, he's at fault in my book.
RJ (not THAT RJ) Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 TD was responsible for the new uniforms too, by the way. That alone should keep anyone on this board from pining for him.
Easy Money Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 Mort would sound more believable if he'd quit bringing up TD. TD started out ok, but then became paranoid, that began his downfall. Everyone keeps pointing the finger at Ralph for al lthe problems. Maybe it really isn't him making the bad decisions, but has been Littman and Overdolf. Granted RW has hired them, but would be interesting to know if that is where the problem really is. The problem with TD was that he didn't want to hire a HC that could possibly become more popular and powerful than he was in the organization, like what happened to him in Pittsburgh.
Dr. K Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 TD did get the Bills out of cap jail, after all. 2001 was difficult to go through, but it needed to be done. That's about all I gave him credit for. His drafts went for the flashy player (Parrish, McGahee) instead of what they needed (OL or DL). I know people bash him for the Mike Williams thing, but did anyone at the time think that drafting MW was a bad move? They had the #4 pick and needed an offensive lineman. I was skeptical at the time about Mike Williams because he was a 380-pound right tackle. I thought he might be too big and slow for end rushers, that his success in college might be because he overwhelmed much smaller college players. And everyone was saying he'd easily transition to left tackle after a season or so. He was not even the number one OT on many people's boards. About Donohoe, I hated his essentially dumping Ted Washington and Pat Williams. Under Wade Phillips the Bills had one of the best rush defenses in the league. That went away and we've never come close since. Overall I thought Donohoe at least had a plan and I was willing to be patient. But it didn't work. I'm not sayng the front office since has been any better. I have hopes for Nix and Gailey and think we ought to see what they do with this and next season.
Buftex Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 Ah, I see. So now we all love TD again, so that we can all hate Big Daddy again. Fair enough. Too much revisionism on TD is not a good idea. He did sign Jeff Posey, after all... and the failures to address the O-line effectively were a constant refrain on TBD during his tenure. You obviously don't have any idea of my history of opinion on these matters. I don't think there is any revisionism going on, nobody has claimed that TD was a complete success...but his competence in manuvering the NFL was far superior to anyone who has been in charge since. I have been consitant in my opinion on this, as I have that Ralph Wilson is the one thing that holds this team back... you are just sick of reading it, because most people are, finally, starting to realize this, You, apparently, are still in denial... TD was responsible for the new uniforms too, by the way. That alone should keep anyone on this board from pining for him. As funny as that is (and I agree, I hate them), if you recall, the sale of Bills merchandise shot up quite a bit the first two years or so, that the latest uniforms were new. Generating income was part of his job.
RJ (not THAT RJ) Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 (edited) You obviously don't have any idea of my history of opinion on these matters. I don't think there is any revisionism going on, nobody has claimed that TD was a complete success...but his competence in manuvering the NFL was far superior to anyone who has been in charge since. I have been consitant in my opinion on this, as I have that Ralph Wilson is the one thing that holds this team back... you are just sick of reading it, because most people are, finally, starting to realize this, You, apparently, are still in denial... As funny as that is (and I agree, I hate them), if you recall, the sale of Bills merchandise shot up quite a bit the first two years or so, that the latest uniforms were new. Generating income was part of his job. Buftex, I am not in denial at all. I am not defending Ralph. I thought first my post was clear on that. If it was not, that is on me. I do think that a lot of what is said here is pretty hysterical, in both the humorous and clinical sense, as people (not necessarily you, since your criticisms have been more measured) vent their hatred for an old man who stands in for the father, boss, or authority figure they hate and fear. My point is to identify the historical irony that Ralph had himself concluded in 2001 that he needed to pull back from meddling, and hired TD precisely because he wanted to turn the team over to a real football man, and that it was TD's failure to deliver (a failure that in 2005 was seen by pretty much everyone I ever remember reading on TBD, and pretty much the entire punditocracy with the possible exception of Mort) that led to the Ralph/Marv debacle and all it brought. Thus for someone like Mort to combine his criticism of Ralph (which is to my mind certainly justified) with the implication that all would be well if TD were around is to ignore the fact that it is TD's own fault that he had to leave Buffalo, and the spectacular flameout of his tenure is one of the main reasons why things are so bad right now. Edited September 30, 2010 by RJ (not THAT RJ)
Adam Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 Releasing Williams and Washington was a failure, but I can see the logic behind it. As the trend towards passing continues, defenses will continue to get smaller and more athletic. Donahoe's mistake was to try to change too quickly, and he removed what made our defense great all at once. That said, he was 100% better than Levy.
BRH Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 I had been harping on drafting Bryant McKinnie for months before the draft, and I wasn't the only one. McKinnie was generally considered the #1 O-line prospect that year, and a natural LT. Williams was the consensus #2 prospect, and it was widely believed that he would be able to transition from playing RT in college to LT in the pros. That was wrong, of course, but even without the benefit of hindsight, it was a questionable pick. The plan was to play Williams at RT for a few years until he could make the move to LT. Even at the time, a bunch of people questioned the wisdom of spending the #4 overall pick on a right tackle, even if you expect him to eventually play left tackle. The argument for MW at the time was that he was only playing RT at Texas because he was protecting Chris Simms' blind side. I bought it; a lot of people bought it. But in the end he just became another overhyped Longhorn prospect.
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