Gene Frenkle Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 (edited) really Gary? I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth. - Thomas Jefferson Christianity...the most perverted system that ever shone on man...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the first great corruptor of the teachings of Jesus. - Thomas Jefferson The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulturated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ. - Thomas Jefferson The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. - Thomas Jefferson This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it. - John Adams Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion? - John Adams Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole cartloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days? - John Adams The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. - John Adams Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst. - Thomas Paine The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion. - Thomas Paine Among the most detesable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers, and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible). - Thomas Paine It is the duty of every true Diest to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible. - Thomas Paine Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind. - Thomas Paine What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyrrany. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy. - James Madison Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. - George Washington I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity. - Benjamin Franklin Lighthouses are more helpful than churches. - Benjamin Franklin The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. - Benjamin Franklin I looked around for God's judgments, but saw no signs of them. - Benjamin Franklin In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it. - Benjamin Franklin Edited September 29, 2010 by Gene Frenkle
Gary M Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 Gary, the difference between us is that I've read about all of those people in detail, including their own words. There is no doubt that Washington was irreligious. Adams was an infrequent churchgoer and not particularly religious although he believed in Christ and possibly his Divinity. Jefferson, S. Adams, Monroe, Madison, Paine, and Franklin were not religious and certainly not Christian. Not all the founders were irreligious but many were, and especially those most closely associated with the founding. So George Washington never said " And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion…Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles.." I never said they attended church regularly or at all, (they were very busy men) but they believed in God and for the most part Jesus and used those teachings (the Bible) to form our country. The Declaration of Independence We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor. I added the bold. really Gary? This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it. - John Adams I don't have as much free time as you so I will only address one of your misquotes. Here is the entire sentence. Twenty times, in the course of my late reading, have I been on the point of breaking out, 'this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!!' But in this exclamation, I should have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in public company—I mean hell.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 They're just numbers dude. That's like asking what percentage of agnostics/atheists were divorced BEFORE conversion... The point is, it seems, that you're more likely to have been divorced if you're religious. You don't have to like the facts. Maybe the pain of divorce causes someone to re-evaluate their faith. Just sayin'.
GG Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 Exactly. it shows that people are flippant about getting and being married because there's no lonnger a sense of moral obligation to the institution. That's a cop out. People can find whatever reason they need to remain grounded in wedlock or a civil union. They just need to recognize what's important to them and what will keep them together. You found God. That's great. Other people find it in a pina colada bar. Others just have irreconcilable differences and move on. As long as you don't take the bat beyond the monitor, the choices are ok.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 That's a cop out. People can find whatever reason they need to remain grounded in wedlock or a civil union. They just need to recognize what's important to them and what will keep them together. You found God. That's great. Other people find it in a pina colada bar. Others just have irreconcilable differences and move on. As long as you don't take the bat beyond the monitor, the choices are ok. Some people are just likely to walk away when times are difficult, and that is a personality trait more common today than it was 100 years ago. Is that debatable?
whateverdude Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 (edited) This is the most hypocritical thread I have read yet. The same people here that are bashing Christians and their beliefs are the same people who come running to the defence of Islam when I bash it. Something tells me this has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with tearing down America. What better way than to mock and marginalize 80 percent of the population. You communist types are very slick. Edited September 29, 2010 by whateverdude
GG Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 Some people are just likely to walk away when times are difficult, and that is a personality trait more common today than it was 100 years ago. Is that debatable? And some people are less likely to bash their spouse or children over the head today than they did 100 years ago. Is that debatable?
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 And some people are less likely to bash their spouse or children over the head today than they did 100 years ago. Is that debatable? Yes, I think it is. I think that spousal abuse is probably a greater problem today than it was 100 years ago.
whateverdude Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 Yes, I think it is. I think that spousal abuse is probably a greater problem today than it was 100 years ago. hypocrite
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 hypocrite Uh, how? Spousal abuse probably IS a larger problem today than it was 100 years ago. How, exactly, does that make me a hypocrite?
GG Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 Yes, I think it is. I think that spousal abuse is probably a greater problem today than it was 100 years ago. Technically, yes, because people recognize it as spousal abuse now as opposed to a formerly accepted form of an attitude adjustment.
whateverdude Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 Uh, how? Spousal abuse probably IS a larger problem today than it was 100 years ago. How, exactly, does that make me a hypocrite? because you defend Islam and it is one of the worst offenders of the abuse of women.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 because you defend Islam and it is one of the worst offenders of the abuse of women. Can you point out where *I* of all people have defended Islam? This should be good.
whateverdude Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 (edited) Can you point out where *I* of all people have defended Islam? This should be good. actually, I am getting you confused with Adam. The 2 of you are of like mind. see the pope thread the 2 should be merged, its the same as this thread Edited September 29, 2010 by whateverdude
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 actually, I am getting you confused with Adam. The 2 of you are of like mind. see the pope thread We are? Again, as far as I can tell, Adam believes in no God. I do believe in God. I do NOT believe that Catholics believe in the same things that I do. But that DOESN'T make me a lover of Islam by any stretch. Get it straight.
whateverdude Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 We are? Again, as far as I can tell, Adam believes in no God. I do believe in God. I do NOT believe that Catholics believe in the same things that I do. But that DOESN'T make me a lover of Islam by any stretch. Get it straight. This is what I said: This is the most hypocritical thread I have read yet. The same people here that are bashing Christians and their beliefs are the same people who come running to the defence of Islam when I bash it. Something tells me this has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with tearing down America. What better way than to mock and marginalize 80 percent of the population. You communist types are very slick.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 This is what I said: I know what you said, but it doesn't apply to me, butthead. I defend faith here REGULARLY.
Peace Posted September 29, 2010 Author Posted September 29, 2010 Some people are just likely to walk away when times are difficult, and that is a personality trait more common today than it was 100 years ago. Is that debatable? What is not debatable is that women can now afford to walk away from a bad husband. That was not a realistic social or monetary option until the last 30 or so years. Before that time, women had to live with men who beat them, alcoholics, cheaters, etc. And of course, those women had almost no open ear to even report those sorts of things to. Divorce is awful but be real: One of the largest reasons for its increase is that women can now better fend for themselves. This BTW comes from someone who thinks the acceptable reasons for divorce only include abuse: physical, substance or severe mental (including infidelity). If you get married and have kids, you should not get divorced unless you want to guarantee that your kids will end up messed up in some way.
whateverdude Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 (edited) I know what you said, but it doesn't apply to me, butthead. I defend faith here REGULARLY. Catholicism != the extent of Christianity ??? Edited September 29, 2010 by whateverdude
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 If you get married and have kids, you should not get divorced unless you want to guarantee that your kids will end up messed up in some way. This. If you have kids, you're in it for life. Sorry. ??? Ever heard of the Protestant Reformation?
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