Gary M Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 (edited) Perfectly said. That Catholics don't know transubstantiation is an indictment of how little "work" they put into their faith. Not just Catholics, but most Americans want/need to be spoon fed anything. Add to that the feel good , do what you want and be forgiven churches and you have the reason America is faultering. It's right there on the money "In God We Trust" Unfortunately we don't anymore. Edited September 29, 2010 by Gary M
Peace Posted September 29, 2010 Author Posted September 29, 2010 Not just Catholics, but most Americans want/need to be spoon fed anything. Add to that the feel good , do what you want and be forgiven churches and you have the reason America is faultering. It's right there on the money "In God We Trust" Unfortunately we don't anymore. So you're advocating for a return to fire and brimstone religions because it's on the money?
erynthered Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 GOD DAMN IT!! I only got 11 out of 15!!
Gary M Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 So you're advocating for a return to fire and brimstone religions because it's on the money? No not because it's on the money, but because when we did believe we had a stronger, better country. Whether you believe in God or not you have to agree that this country was built on a faithfilled foundation. And on that foundation it grew and prospered faster than any other nation in human history. As that foundation has been weakened so has the country.
LeviF Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 No not because it's on the money, but because when we did believe we had a stronger, better country. Whether you believe in God or not you have to agree that this country was built on a faithfilled foundation. And on that foundation it grew and prospered faster than any other nation in human history. As that foundation has been weakened so has the country. Wow, you're really good at the correlation = causation thing
Gary M Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 Wow, you're really good at the correlation = causation thing You disagree that as our moral standards have been dimished that our country has been in decline? Greedy business men, dishonest politicians and a total lack of personal responsibility by the populace has been slowly erroding our great country.
LeviF Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 You disagree that as our moral standards have been dimished that our country has been in decline? Greedy business men, dishonest politicians and a total lack of personal responsibility by the populace has been slowly erroding our great country. I didn't think that was what you were saying before. Carry on.
Peace Posted September 29, 2010 Author Posted September 29, 2010 You disagree that as our moral standards have been dimished that our country has been in decline? Greedy business men, dishonest politicians and a total lack of personal responsibility by the populace has been slowly erroding our great country. When were things better? When people used religion to keep women down or when they used it to keep blacks down? Stop with the "things were better when..." It's a myth.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 When were things better? When people used religion to keep women down or when they used it to keep blacks down? Stop with the "things were better when..." It's a myth. When divorce rates are above 50%, I think it's safe to say there's a moral problem in our country. Just sayin'.
GG Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 When divorce rates are above 50%, I think it's safe to say there's a moral problem in our country. Just sayin'. No. A 50% divorce rate means many people shouldn't have been married in the first place.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 No. A 50% divorce rate means many people shouldn't have been married in the first place. Exactly. it shows that people are flippant about getting and being married because there's no lonnger a sense of moral obligation to the institution.
erynthered Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 No. A 50% divorce rate means many people shouldn't have been married in the first place. I can agree with that.
erynthered Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 Exactly. it shows that many people are flippant about getting and being married because there's no lonnger a sense of moral obligation to the institution. fixed. I can agree with that too.
Gary M Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 When were things better? When people used religion to keep women down or when they used it to keep blacks down? Stop with the "things were better when..." It's a myth. I'm not arguing that it was perfect, but the USA rose to it's zenith on a Christian foundation, and when we began shutting God out we started on a downward spiral. "Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants." William Penn
Gene Frenkle Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 (edited) I'm not arguing that it was perfect, but the USA rose to it's zenith on a Christian foundation, and when we began shutting God out we started on a downward spiral. Bullschitt, the United States was not even founded by Christians and your "morality from religion" argument is equally unsubstantiated. When divorce rates are above 50%, I think it's safe to say there's a moral problem in our country. Just sayin'. Don't let the facts get in the way of your moral bender: Conservative Christians of all types, evangelical as well as Catholic, tend to link their conservative brand of their religion with proper moral behavior. By far the most popular context is marriage: they claim that a good, solid marriage is only possible when people acknowledge conservative Christianity's claims about the nature of marriage and gender roles. So why is it that Christian marriages, and especially conservative Christian marriages, end in divorce more often than atheist marriages? The Barna Research Group, an evangelical Christian organization that does surveys and research to better understand what Christians believe and how they behave, studied divorce rates in America in 1999 and found surprising evidence that divorce is far lower among atheists than among conservative Christians — exactly the opposite of what they were probably expecting. 11% of all American adults are divorced 25% of all American adults have had at least one divorce 27% of born-again Christians have had at least one divorce 24% of all non-born-again Christians have been divorced 21% of atheists have been divorced 21% of Catholics and Lutherans have been divorced 24% of Mormons have been divorced 25% of mainstream Protestants have been divorced 29% of Baptists have been divorced 24% of nondenominational, independent Protestants have been divorced 27% of people in the South and Midwest have been divorced 26% of people in the West have been divorced 19% of people in the Northwest and Northeast have been divorced http://atheism.about...istsDivorce.htm Edited September 29, 2010 by Gene Frenkle
Peace Posted September 29, 2010 Author Posted September 29, 2010 (edited) I'm not arguing that it was perfect, but the USA rose to it's zenith on a Christian foundation, and when we began shutting God out we started on a downward spiral. "Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants." William Penn The US rose to its zenith when the world engaged in a couple huge wars on their own turfs and our country sat comparatively untouched. God/faith had nothing to do with it. And this Christian foundation BS is just that: BS. the US was founded by largely secular people and as a largely secular nation. That some of the founders considered questions about god is much different than that they founded it as a Christian nation. Many of the founders, of course, had no belief in a Christian god. When divorce rates are above 50%, I think it's safe to say there's a moral problem in our country. Just sayin'. Divorce rates rose as women gained the ability to support themselves. I am sure divorce rates would have been higher sooner if women were welcome in the workplace sooner. Divorce rates, to me, are not the measure of moral decay because it's likely just as many divorces would have taken place in 1910 if women had been able to work for a fair wage. Edited September 29, 2010 by Peace
Gary M Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 The US rose to its zenith when the world engaged in a couple huge wars on their own turfs and our country sat comparatively untouched. God/faith had nothing to do with it. Many of the founders, of course, had no belief in a Christian god. really? Love is the hardest lesson in Christianity; but, for that reason, it should be most our care to learn it. William Penn In such a state of things it is in an especial manner our duty as a people, with devout reverence and affectionate gratitude, to acknowledge our many and great obligations to Almighty God and to implore Him to continue and confirm the blessings we experience.. George Washington Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. John Adams Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death! Patrick Henry The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments or musty records. They are written, as with a sunbeam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself; and can never be erased. Alexander Hamilton
Peace Posted September 29, 2010 Author Posted September 29, 2010 really? Love is the hardest lesson in Christianity; but, for that reason, it should be most our care to learn it. William Penn In such a state of things it is in an especial manner our duty as a people, with devout reverence and affectionate gratitude, to acknowledge our many and great obligations to Almighty God and to implore Him to continue and confirm the blessings we experience.. George Washington Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. John Adams Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death! Patrick Henry The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments or musty records. They are written, as with a sunbeam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself; and can never be erased. Alexander Hamilton Gary, the difference between us is that I've read about all of those people in detail, including their own words. There is no doubt that Washington was irreligious. Adams was an infrequent churchgoer and not particularly religious although he believed in Christ and possibly his Divinity. Jefferson, S. Adams, Monroe, Madison, Paine, and Franklin were not religious and certainly not Christian. Not all the founders were irreligious but many were, and especially those most closely associated with the founding.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 Divorce rates rose as women gained the ability to support themselves. I am sure divorce rates would have been higher sooner if women were welcome in the workplace sooner. Divorce rates, to me, are not the measure of moral decay because it's likely just as many divorces would have taken place in 1910 if women had been able to work for a fair wage. Hooray for progress, then! 27% of born-again Christians have had at least one divorce And what percentage of those people were divorced BEFORE conversion, like me? I'd think that's a germane question.
Gene Frenkle Posted September 29, 2010 Posted September 29, 2010 And what percentage of those people were divorced BEFORE conversion, like me? I'd think that's a germane question. They're just numbers dude. That's like asking what percentage of agnostics/atheists were divorced BEFORE conversion... The point is, it seems, that you're more likely to have been divorced if you're religious. You don't have to like the facts.
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