RJ, Losman, and now Trent....

[Kipers Hair]

The only one who could have fixed these three was the Wizard of Oz...For you RJ, a heart...and you JP, a brain...and lastly, poor Dorothy, oops, I mean Trent, some courage for you.

 

Please - what went wrong was they were/are ill equiped to be an NFL caliber quarterback. No shame in it - they drank from the rarified cup, but they simply lacked the package and not many have it...

Edited September 28, 2010 by Kipers Hair

[Special K]

 

 

Either way, yesterday marked the official end of 4 consecutive "High Hopes QB" careers in Buffalo. I think it naive to say that it is simply a matter of talent. The organization (from top to bottom) has always had its issues. But I also don't think that any of these guys were individually good enough to succeed without some good fortune or good help. Unfortunately, all three received neither.

 

Let's hope 2011 breaks that cycle. But be mindful that whether Andrew Luck, Ryan Mallett, Jake Locker or Drew Brees comes to Orchard Park next year, it's not always 100% on the guy with the green sticker on his helmet.

Well put.

 

I really hope the Bills get one of the top-tier QB's in next year's draft, but I hope that the factors you outlined in your post don't lead that next QB down the same path as RJ, JP, and Trent.

[2003Contenders]

I wish I knew.

 

If I were a mad scientist and could "create" the perfect QB, he would have all of the following characteristics: Leadership, ability to make quick decisions and go with them, football intelligence (i.e. ability to read a defense, know the playbook, adjust on the fly, etc), sixth sense when dealing with impending danger, and naturally the physical skills to get the job done (arm strength, mobility, accuracy).

 

Of all the post-Kelly QBs that have paraded through Buffalo, the two most successful were Flutie and Bledsoe, two guys who were groomed elsewhere. I think the decision makers at OBD spent too much time focusing on the physical skills of the younger guys (RJ, JP and Trent) as none of them possessed the other accompanying skills.

 

Sometimes i think we as fans fall into this same trap, eliminating guys from consideration because we question their arm strength, for example. Meanwhile, guys like Drew Brees and Chad Pennington were able to take their teams far into the playoffs whereas guys like RJ and JP are not even in the league anymore. I am not sure that there ever was an NFL QB with a stronger arm than JaMarcus Russell. Where is he now? Ideally, you want a guy that can make all the NFL throws and cut through the Lake Erie winds come December -- but these traits are secondary to the skills, smarts, guts, and instincts it takes to play the most difficult position in all of professional sports.

 

For those that watch more college football than I do, is there a QB who will be coming out next April that fits that bill?

[flopagamo]

JP ran for his life at Tulane, right? I don't think he ever had a good line in front of him, ever. His raw physical gifts were enough to overcome that in college, but not in the pros. If memory serves, I think Trent didn't have much of an O line to work with either at Stanford. NOTE TO TALENT EVALUATORS: success despite a bad O-line in college is not an indicator of NFL success.

 

QBs look much better when they (a) have time to throw, and (b) have a feel for, and ability to sidestep oncoming pressure (like Aaron Rodgers in the Monday nighter against the Bears). IMO, you don't develop B without A... you can't develop pocket presence if you rarely have a pocket to be present in. JP and Trent's stints in Buffalo would likely have been longer if they had ever had time to throw. (I think RJ did have time, but was a knucklehead.) You get time to throw from (1) a good O-line and (2) playcalling that isn't predictable.

 

Not saying our guys were starter quality NFL QBs... not by a longshot. But, coaching and front office have a lot to do with a QB's success.

 

Is there an above average starter in the NFL with a weak offensive line?

[Bill from NYC]

I don't think it's nearly as black and white as some people want to make it ("He just sucked" or "He never had a chance").

 

RJ:

I really wanted him to be the man. I agree that he just never had the right feel for the game and his mistakes were drive killers (just like JP). But I strongly disagree with those who said he had no heart. He lost his job due to injury and stayed ready for 2 years for another chance. He played tough in the playoffs and he played tough in 2000 when he got the starting nod. I was at the home opener "rematch" against Tennessee that year. His stats weren't great, but he played a hard game and gutted it out. That year he had more injury problems and Flutie came in and out. But I'll never forget his last win against KC. It took the Bills to 7-4. RJ scored the winning TD on a 12 yard run where he got absolutely layed out. For those who say he never had heart, you are just being bitter. The dude put his body out there all the time and, due to his own fault, took more hits than any Bills QB I can remember. He just never had the flow. I do think the wheels fell off the following week at Tampa Bay (the "Frank Middleton" game) and otherwise, that could have been a playoff team. That was also the infamous "Neither team has a chance" season when Wade basically wrote off the 6-7 Bills and Colts before their game. Colts dominated, finished with 3 wins and made the playoffs. The rest is history. What a decade it's been.

 

JP:

Seemed like he might just have had enough fire and physical talent to mask his faults. His 2006 season is by far the best QB season we've had since and probably 2nd best of the decade only to Bledsoe's 2002. He had some great performances and threw some of the prettiest bombs I've ever seen. The back to back Texans and Jaguars games of 2006 were the last two really great Bills games, IMO. The endings of those games were the last times any Bills QB stepped up in a big moment and willed a victory. The drive against Houston culminating with the TD to Price in back of the endzone and the drive against JAX the next week where JP hit Roscoe on that GORGEOUS out pattern (definitely the best catch of Parrish's career). Those two games made me believe JP was finally going to turn the corner. But it didn't last. He never quite got a hold on reading defenses and the mistakes he made outweighed his moments of brilliance. While he never salvaged his game elsewhere, I think the mismanagement of his career at the hands of our coaches and front office would have killed all but the strongest talents. He was probably never going to be a superstar, but the right coaching could have turned him into a playoff QB I think. And the wrong coaching (and I can't think of one single thing they did right with him) squandered what little chance he had to be successful and scarred him forever. I really believe that.

 

Trent:

I was most skeptical of him of the three, but by the end, had the highest hopes for him. I blast anyone who attacks RJ or JPs heart, but I can't say that I could defend Trent on that count here. The coaching has been terrible. The surrounding talent has been marginal. But something happened to him (or he only masked it occaisonally during his periods of success) and it goes beyond Xs and Os. I believe his problem is confidence and possibly lack of desire. But definitely confidence. Either:

 

(A) He is not confident enough in his arm to make NFL throws down the field or

(B) He does not understand what "open" is in the NFL

 

Evans is basically a one-trick pony and we've had precious little besides him. But guys are open on almost every play, every game in the NFL. "Open" means a 6-inch window oftentimes. "Open" means the guy is covered and hasn't turned yet but you trust he will get to his spot when you let go. I think Trent never got that feel and, in that way, he was no cerebral-superior to the two other guys on this list that are blasted for being too "dumb" to be QB.

 

 

Either way, yesterday marked the official end of 4 consecutive "High Hopes QB" careers in Buffalo. I think it naive to say that it is simply a matter of talent. The organization (from top to bottom) has always had its issues. But I also don't think that any of these guys were individually good enough to succeed without some good fortune or good help. Unfortunately, all three received neither.

 

Let's hope 2011 breaks that cycle. But be mindful that whether Andrew Luck, Ryan Mallett, Jake Locker or Drew Brees comes to Orchard Park next year, it's not always 100% on the guy with the green sticker on his helmet.

 

Thanks for one of the best posts I have ever read about the Bills QB situation on this board. Certainly there is more to discuss (lack of blocking, defenses at the time, etc.), but you certainly did well to sum up what was happening with these guys. Nice job!

 

PS: I fully agree with you wrt RJ having heart, and I gave him the best chance at success of the 3. Fwiw, I am not the best judge of QBs, but I think that Ryan Mallet is going to be a superstar. That might not be a good sign for him.

[nobody]

Turns out that Trent Edwards was part of 'future compensation' in the Rob Johnson trade.

[billsfan714]

Wow 2 ones, a 2nd, 3rd, 4th and a 5th for RJ, JP and Trentative, gotta love the Bills front office. The worst talent evaluators in the NFL looked at these stiffs thats what happened. The same people who have brought you Maybust, the non-pro bowl safety Whitner, Hardy, McCargo and on and on it goes. Put that all together and you have 5 number 1 choices, 2 second rounders, a third and fourth and a fifth for RJ, JP, Edwards, Whitner, McCargo, Hardy and Maybust.

[Dr. Fong]

It's a perfect storm of inept coaching, poor management of the franchise, and a general lack of talent on the offense.

[DC Tom]

Let's expand the scope of the question:

 

Who's the last quarterback the Bills drafted and developed successfully? Not Kelly...he had a couple years in the USFL before coming to Buffalo. Ferguson? Kemp?

[Albany,n.y.]

Let's expand the scope of the question:

 

Who's the last quarterback the Bills drafted and developed successfully? Not Kelly...he had a couple years in the USFL before coming to Buffalo. Ferguson? Kemp?

Even though he was a backup, Frank Reich qualifies.

[John from Riverside]

I just wonder how good Jim Kelly would have looked behind the offensive lines we have fielded in the last 10 years

[Rob's House]

Bledsoe was a great example of the ineptitude of the coaching staff/front office. The guy has a monster year in 02, so instead of beefing up a solid O-line to protect a big arm statue with speedy targets, they neglect the line and lose the targets.

 

And JP at least looked promising before Jauron and Co came in with the Simple Simon offense which played to his weaknesses and negated his strengths.

 

This idea that you're either a great QB or you're not is just something that simple minded folks use to reassure themselves of a quick fix. Matt Cassel's probably not a success right now had he not learned how to play NFL QB on a great squad. David Carr might have been something special had he not been used as target practice for his first 3 years in the league. A lot of variables go into play and sadly, you never know what might have been.

[Buffalos#1Fan]

The Bills have just made an addition by substraction. Trent Edwards and his subservient ways has been jettisoned. I got sick of watching him on the sidelines listening to the plays given to Fitz. As if he could go in and make something or anything happen when it mattered. Fact is a good QB will give you six or eight good games. A great QB will give you nine to twelve and get you to the playoffs. With TE we were seven points down before we started the game.

Give Chan some credit. He made a mistake and moved on. Remember he has not been here very long, although he should have made a phone call to Perry Fewell.

There is a law of averages and the Bills will have their QB very soon. Sometimes they come out of nowhere.

Personally I would check everyone bagging groceries at Wegman's. Cause fact is no one knows what makes a great QB.

[bartshan-83]

Thanks for one of the best posts I have ever read about the Bills QB situation on this board. Certainly there is more to discuss (lack of blocking, defenses at the time, etc.), but you certainly did well to sum up what was happening with these guys. Nice job!

 

PS: I fully agree with you wrt RJ having heart, and I gave him the best chance at success of the 3. Fwiw, I am not the best judge of QBs, but I think that Ryan Mallet is going to be a superstar. That might not be a good sign for him.

Thanks, Bill. I admit that, at the time, I probably grossly overrated both RJ and JP. They were probably never as good as I thought they were. But I also believe that neither were as bad as many claim.

 

I'm going off on a tangent now, but player development is almost as important as talent evaluation (probably even more important at the college level). The notion that guys who are good enough to make it to the NFL won't be affected very much by good or bad coaching is ridiculous. We are talking about 22 year olds who are still in a very impressionable stage of their career. A terrible coach (whether it be technique or motivation) can absolutely ruin a young talent. And few franchises have bungled the QB position like the Buffalo Bills.

 

I'd argue that each of the following QBs were mismanaged, poorly coached and detrimentally affected by our coaching staff, front office and/or ownership to a degree that it negatively affected their performance in Buffalo and/or beyond. And also that each QB had at least a reasonable chance of being a good QB (or better than they were here):

 

Todd Collins

Rob Johnson

Doug Flutie

Drew Bledsoe (maybe)

JP Losman

Trent Edwards

 

Is it some sort of sick coincidence that we haven't been able to find a good QB since Kelly? I know they don't grow on trees, but our problem goes beyond bad scouting or bad luck. The Bills are like a restaurant that might be buying average ingredients, but it doesn't matter because the cook sucks and the waiters suck. What little chance they have to make and serve a decent meal is always squandered.

 

I too like Mallett, but I haven't seen nearly enough of him to have an informed opinion. I made my feelings on Locker very clear last year when people were discussing him vs. Clausen. I don't think he has the accuracy to be an NFL QB. He's barely accurate enough at the college level. I've seen Luck a few times and he looks decent enough.

 

We will likely be in a position to draft a better talent QB than we've had since Drew or even Kelly. I just hope that for once, this franchise enhances their probability of success with some actual positive guidance.

[T master]

Rob Johnson was a complete waste of the Bills time & money !! He was a defensive minded coaches wet dream -- when you wake up you realize the mess you have made and you have to clean it up your self !!

 

J.P on the other hand i think under the right coach could have been a decent or an above average Q.B but like you said was thrown into the fire too quickly .

 

Trent along with the endorsement of the great Bill Walsh i thought at first was going to be the next Joe Montanna (hey we can dream can't we) and still think if he had a great offensive line in front of him would have been at least an average NFL Q.B.

 

But as we have all learned and seen with our own two eyes if he doesn't have the best of protection & time he just ain't got it !!!!!

[thewildrabbit]

It amazes me that most fans have no clue that there is something called "player development." It is different from player evaluation (scouting), and has to do with an organization's ability to develop the players it acquires through the draft and free agency. It absolutely exists (although it's understandable that Bills fans aren't familiar with the concept), and it's CRITICAL.

 

I don't have an answer to the OP's question. I do, however, believe strongly that if this organization drafted Aaron Rodgers, Brian Orapko, Clay Matthews, Sam Bradford, etc., there is an at least decent chance that those players would be regarded as "busts." I'm not saying Losman would've succeeded elsewhere - he probably wouldn't have. But Bills fans tend to act as though it's simply a matter of fixing our scouting and personnel department, and that things will turn themselves around if that were to happen. There is way more to it. This organization, with it's horrible, buzzard of an owner and its complete lack of quality coaching, conditioning, and accountability, is going to bungle the careers whomever it drafts.

 

Like someone else said, it doesn't even matter at this point what went wrong with Edwards (or JP, or RJ): what matters is that all of us fans are waiting patiently (sometimes impatiently) for a new owner. It's the only chance we have.

Great points I have always felt had the Bills be able to bring in Tom Cousineau he would have developed properly under Chuck Knox and developed into a top NFL LB. To me coaching is everything, kinda why they named the SB trophy after a great coach.

 

Chuck Knox came to this franchise when it was one of the worst teams in the NFL, rebuilt it basically by himself as the GM at the time was a complete tool. 5-11 his first year to 11-5 in two years and won the division. He was an ex O linemen himself, he took a QB named Joe Furguson who used to constantly hang his head after every bad series walking off the field, who used to constantly throw more INT's then TDs every year, and turned him into a much more disciplined QB who stopped hanging his head and stopped throwing so many INT's, Knox turned him into a winning QB.

 

The problem with the Buffalo Bills is the team hasn't had a decent offensive coordinator since Ted Marchibroda and a decent head coach since Marv Levy / Wade Phillips. Plus the Bills haven't had a great O line since those early 90's, and with a poor O line the QB will never play well

 

A great head coach like Bill Cowher / Mike Shanahan / Marty Schottenheimer could turn this franchise into a winner again. Conversely, look at KC this year, a smart HC can hire talented experienced veteran coordinators and turn the franchise around, KC is also helped by their GM Scott Pioli.

[Mark Long Beach]

Thanks for one of the best posts I have ever read about the Bills QB situation on this board. Certainly there is more to discuss (lack of blocking, defenses at the time, etc.), but you certainly did well to sum up what was happening with these guys. Nice job!

 

PS: I fully agree with you wrt RJ having heart, and I gave him the best chance at success of the 3. Fwiw, I am not the best judge of QBs, but I think that Ryan Mallet is going to be a superstar. That might not be a good sign for him.

 

I think that this whole thread has been one of the better ones that I've read in a long time here. Good job Bill for starting this.

 

My opinion follows along this same line of reasoning. I don't think that any of these failed QBs was going to turn into Peyton, Kelly or Elway. They all had a significant flaw. But the Bills as an organization failed too. They could have been serviceable QBs. They could have brought us to the playoffs (RJ did) and if all the stars lined up they could have been serviceable enough to win us a superbowl ala Dilfer and the Ravens. They were never developed properly. Their skills were never brought to the forefront and their weaknesses never really sufficiently protected.

 

Our coaching staff's have been weak (inexperienced or poor quality) coupled with poor GM's have lead to bad drafts and not allowed us to win with a talent alone edge. But IMO more could have been wrung out of JP (a little) and a lot more out of TE had they been better guided and better protected.

 

I think that TE had the highest ceiling of our recent QBs. But he was thrown to the wolves too early and lost what little confidence and courage that he had. He can make all the necessary throws, but has become too fearful to actually do them during the games. I truly believe that with a lot more patience, letting him sit behind someone for a couple years to really learn the speed of the NFL and giving him good protection (which obviously helps ALL QBs) he could have done quite well. But after running for his life in college and getting pounded into the ground behind our poor line with no a no chance offensive system he's ruined for life (which is the short playing career window of an NFL player).

[dave mcbride]

I think that this whole thread has been one of the better ones that I've read in a long time here. Good job Bill for starting this.

 

My opinion follows along this same line of reasoning. I don't think that any of these failed QBs was going to turn into Peyton, Kelly or Elway. They all had a significant flaw. But the Bills as an organization failed too. They could have been serviceable QBs. They could have brought us to the playoffs (RJ did) and if all the stars lined up they could have been serviceable enough to win us a superbowl ala Dilfer and the Ravens. They were never developed properly. Their skills were never brought to the forefront and their weaknesses never really sufficiently protected.

 

Our coaching staff's have been weak (inexperienced or poor quality) coupled with poor GM's have lead to bad drafts and not allowed us to win with a talent alone edge. But IMO more could have been wrung out of JP (a little) and a lot more out of TE had they been better guided and better protected.

 

I think that TE had the highest ceiling of our recent QBs. But he was thrown to the wolves too early and lost what little confidence and courage that he had. He can make all the necessary throws, but has become too fearful to actually do them during the games. I truly believe that with a lot more patience, letting him sit behind someone for a couple years to really learn the speed of the NFL and giving him good protection (which obviously helps ALL QBs) he could have done quite well. But after running for his life in college and getting pounded into the ground behind our poor line with no a no chance offensive system he's ruined for life (which is the short playing career window of an NFL player).

RJ may have played in the playoffs, but he certainly didn't bring us there. Just clarifying.

[Section444]

How many QB's does the team have to go through before the fans start blaming the team, not the players.