Getting really tired of this Pats* cheater stuff.

[Doc]

It's not really a stupid question, if you think about it. Also, your response doesn't address it at all. Read it again.

 

Regardless, your logic leaves a bit to be desired, Dean. Just because someone believes a certain behavior gives them an advantage, that doesn't make it so. Every superstitious ritual performed by a player before heading out to the field or the batter's box is testament to this, as is obsessive compulsive behavior. No doubt BB felt he had an advantage in stealing signals in this way--no need to state the obvious. But whether he gained an in game advantage (the rule he broke) has been debated outside of TSW.

 

Look, Marv once boasted that he had "the best signal stealer in the league". No doubt Levy was also convinced that stealing signals was to his advantage (as were all other coaches--including Coach Mudd, the Thomas Edison of video taping). How do we know he didn't have a guy in the stands with a foam finger in one hand and a super 8 in the other? Since Marv boldly described he and the Bills as cheaters, did you discount their 4 AFC Championships? Since the crime is illicitly knowing the opponent's signals (cheating is cheating, no?), logic would dictate that you would have to.

 

Just because you smoke a pipe and wear an ascot, you aren't necessarily in a position to label others stupid.

Pregame rituals don't get players into trouble. And usually they're little more than some small gesture, like wearing the same unwashed socks. Doing something you know is wrong (eg. taking PEDs) and for which there are severe consequences (like being suspended, or losing a 1st rounder and $750K) is ONLY done when there is something to be gained from it. Especially if you've been warned previously.

 

As for Levy, who did he have? A guy with a pair of binoculars and the ability to lip-read? Yes, that's something I'd be willing to admit "everyone does it." There's no rule against it though. There is however a rule against videotaping.

 

As for Howie Mudd, like I told you before, some off-hand comment by Belichick's fishing buddy Jimmy Johnson doesn't count for much. That Belichick and the Pats didn't fight the penalty, or offer-up Mudd or the alleged plethora of other teams illegally videotaping speaks volumes.

[Kevin]

I would rather go 0-16 than win a Superbowl under those circumstances.

 

Once you get caught cheating, you're illegitimate. It might not seem like much in the rush of the present, but think in terms of history. Do you honestly want the first Superbowl the Bills ever won to be tainted forever? You can think of football in a lot of different ways, but with the ever increasing emphasis on the NFL as a family oriented game (as evidenced by the increasingly stringent tailgating restrictions), you can't help but think about its impact on the next generation.

 

Do you want to implicitly tell your kids that it's okay to cheat to get ahead, because their favorite team did it and was successful in doing so? What the Patriots did is so much worse than steroid use. Steroids are most often used by an individual to perform at higher level than they could normally achieve, one way or the other. The Pats, however, did something that violated the rules on an organizational level. It was a conscious effort by at least a few powerful people in the Pats coaching staff/front office to do something they knew violated the rules.

 

Or maybe you don't care about winning with honor, dignity, or class. I'm not saying the guys all have to be saints (although I wish they played like they were Saints...), but win the right way. If Buffalo ever won that way, it would break my heart. I'd have to give up rooting for my team.

 

Hopefully you're trolling. If not though, I'm stunned.

 

With all do respect,

 

I am getting sick and tired of professional athletes/organizations sending messages to our kids on what is right and wrong. IT IS NOT THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO TEACH MY CHILD THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG. It is MY responsibility! If my daughter looks at what Michael Vick did and thinks it is ok to do that to our dog, THEN I HAVE FAILED AS A PARENT! I have failed myself, my child, and my dog!

 

As a parent, it is YOUR responsibility to teach YOUR kid good sportsmanship, good morals and everything else that is required to be a good human being. Not the New England Patriots, Buffalo Bills, Lance Armstrong, Mark McGwire, etc. etc. etc.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Kevin

[ExiledInIllinois]

With all do respect,

 

I am getting sick and tired of professional athletes/organizations sending messages to our kids on what is right and wrong. IT IS NOT THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO TEACH MY CHILD THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG. It is MY responsibility! If my daughter looks at what Michael Vick did and thinks it is ok to do that to our dog, THEN I HAVE FAILED AS A PARENT! I have failed myself, my child, and my dog!

 

As a parent, it is YOUR responsibility to teach YOUR kid good sportsmanship, good morals and everything else that is required to be a good human being. Not the New England Patriots, Buffalo Bills, Lance Armstrong, Mark McGwire, etc. etc. etc.

 

What happens if they don't listen to you and decide to listen to somebody else?

[Rex Ryan's Lapband]

What happens if they don't listen to you and decide to listen to somebody else?

They get a job coaching the New England Patriots.

 

(if they don't luck out with a 6th round, backup college QB... they get a job coaching the Cleveland Browns)

[uforesircher]

I mean what did they really do? Video the Jets defensive coordinator in a game they were going to win anyway?

My point is if it's that easy to win in the NFL, WHEN ARE THE BILLS GOING TO START CHEATING. I would love to see them take on that eye gouging, no holds barred attitude. Pay off refs? Fine go for it. Microphone's in the opposing teams locker room? Do it.

Fine put a * next to their SB win. Chan-a cheat has a nice ring to it.

 

get over it - they cheated - they got caught cheating - they are cheaters!

[Mr. WEO]

Pregame rituals don't get players into trouble. And usually they're little more than some small gesture, like wearing the same unwashed socks. Doing something you know is wrong (eg. taking PEDs) and for which there are severe consequences (like being suspended, or losing a 1st rounder and $750K) is ONLY done when there is something to be gained from it. Especially if you've been warned previously.

 

As for Levy, who did he have? A guy with a pair of binoculars and the ability to lip-read? Yes, that's something I'd be willing to admit "everyone does it." There's no rule against it though. There is however a rule against videotaping.

 

As for Howie Mudd, like I told you before, some off-hand comment by Belichick's fishing buddy Jimmy Johnson doesn't count for much. That Belichick and the Pats didn't fight the penalty, or offer-up Mudd or the alleged plethora of other teams illegally videotaping speaks volumes.

The point is that people will do something if they perceive an advantage, whether it exists or not. NE was crushing teams like never before and went undefeated into the SB after they stopped taping so what advantage were they really getting (or missing after they stopped)?

 

Levy was absolutely stealing signals-exactly how, we don't know. It's cheating. And, several respondents agree cheating is cheating--stealing signals no matter how is cheating. Everyone did it. "Off-hand comment"? JJ was responding to a direct question. And your persistent "fishing buddy" stuff is laughable. JJ is going to willfully tarnish his legacy and that of the teams he coached and that of a colleague for a guy he may have fished with on occasion (picture BB fishing??)?

 

Mudd never said anything when JJ named him as the guy who invented modern video stealing. That seems very odd. As is the fact that JJ would pick this obscure individual's name out of thin air when answering the question of whether he ever taped signals. As is the fact that not only did the owners not display any outrage over the Pats (and the League?) screwing several of them out of millions in merchandise money (stolen SBs), they publicly praised the League for the way it handled the investigation! Sounds like the owners didn't want to anybody looking too closely at how the rest of their coaches conducted their business. Any suggestion that they "kept quiet to maintain the integrity of the league" makes no sense at all. You don't maintain your integrity by giving the public the impression that you have none. The NFL would be just as popular today if they threw BB out of the league. They were afraid that their dirty little secret (cheating is commonplace in the NFL) would ruin them. They made a example of the most blatant and most recalcitrant (they had begged him to stop!) cheater but they couldn't really punish him too much, given what the owners all knew.

 

And, gee, the Pats didn't fight the suspension? "Hey, everyone else is doing it." Come on! Does that work when you get caught speeding? Why would they bother to prolong a PR nightmare?

[The Dean]

The point is that people will do something if they perceive an advantage, whether it exists or not. NE was crushing teams like never before and went undefeated into the SB after they stopped taping so what advantage were they really getting (or missing after they stopped)?

 

 

I see. So what you are really saying is, even though Belicheat believed he was gaining an advantage by taping teams, he wasn't. So now you think you know more than the coach whose balls you regularly tongue-bath on this board? Damn, you really are arrogant!

[Jim in Anchorage]

For those saying only Bills fans think the Pats* cheated that's a laugh. Anyone who reads a national online publication like PFT for example can see for themselves that fans League-wide despise the Pats* and call them out on their cheating to this day and I don't expect that to end anytime soon (if ever). You're a blind Pats* homer to think otherwise.

 

PS All this talk about the Cheats* made me go back last night before bed and crank up that SB game on my DVR. Best non-Bills game ever....

So you enjoy seeing the GIANTS win a SB? Man I don't know what to say.

[uforesircher]

So you enjoy seeing the GIANTS win a SB? Man I don't know what to say.

 

jim you are mixing apples with oranges now - you are now talking about something that is not congruent with the topic at hand.

 

the title of the thread is: "Getting really tired of this Pats* cheater stuff" - to that end i will say again: get over it. they cheated - they got caught cheating - therefore they are cheaters.

 

and btw - belicheat being on the competition committee is a travesty and a joke!

[Jim in Anchorage]

jim you are mixing apples with oranges now - you are now talking about something that is not congruent with the topic at hand.

 

the title of the thread is: "Getting really tired of this Pats* cheater stuff" - to that end i will say again: get over it. they cheated - they got caught cheating - therefore they are cheaters.

 

and btw - belicheat being on the competition committee is a travesty and a joke!

You might notice I quoted MattM on his rewatching "that" SB, and how much he enjoys it. I assume it was NE/Giants.

I frankly can't imagine enjoying seeing the Giants beat anyone but Dallas

[akm0404]

Was hoping the sour grapes, sore loser, crybaby crowd had given up in here but oh well.

 

You want to talk about teaching your children positive values - I'd speculate that teaching them that when you lose, the best thing you can do is to cry about it and call the other guy a cheater in a pathetic attempt to invalidate your own shortcomings is a good bit worse than pushing the envelope for competitive advantage.

 

But as Bills fans, we know little about pushing for competitive advantage these days. Our biggest organizational innovation in the last decade has been to sell our home games for literal cash money compensation.

 

Yeah, it stinks that the Patriots are so much better than us. But please stop the whole running home to mommy thing - we are already being laughed at on the field. Don't humiliate yourself on some dumb message boards too. Self respect is worth holding on to.

[Doc]

The point is that people will do something if they perceive an advantage, whether it exists or not. NE was crushing teams like never before and went undefeated into the SB after they stopped taping so what advantage were they really getting (or missing after they stopped)?

 

Levy was absolutely stealing signals-exactly how, we don't know. It's cheating. And, several respondents agree cheating is cheating--stealing signals no matter how is cheating. Everyone did it. "Off-hand comment"? JJ was responding to a direct question. And your persistent "fishing buddy" stuff is laughable. JJ is going to willfully tarnish his legacy and that of the teams he coached and that of a colleague for a guy he may have fished with on occasion (picture BB fishing??)?

 

Mudd never said anything when JJ named him as the guy who invented modern video stealing. That seems very odd. As is the fact that JJ would pick this obscure individual's name out of thin air when answering the question of whether he ever taped signals. As is the fact that not only did the owners not display any outrage over the Pats (and the League?) screwing several of them out of millions in merchandise money (stolen SBs), they publicly praised the League for the way it handled the investigation! Sounds like the owners didn't want to anybody looking too closely at how the rest of their coaches conducted their business. Any suggestion that they "kept quiet to maintain the integrity of the league" makes no sense at all. You don't maintain your integrity by giving the public the impression that you have none. The NFL would be just as popular today if they threw BB out of the league. They were afraid that their dirty little secret (cheating is commonplace in the NFL) would ruin them. They made a example of the most blatant and most recalcitrant (they had begged him to stop!) cheater but they couldn't really punish him too much, given what the owners all knew.

 

And, gee, the Pats didn't fight the suspension? "Hey, everyone else is doing it." Come on! Does that work when you get caught speeding? Why would they bother to prolong a PR nightmare?

Again, if everyone truly does do a particular thing to cheat, it's a non-issue since, well, everyone is doing it! This isn't a hard concept to understand for most, doc. That the league levied the harshest penalty possible against the Pats, didn't didn't say "everyone does it, nothing to see here" so as to end the "PR nightmare," and the Pats didn't attempt to clear their name (that's why they would fight it chief, despite the on-going "PR nightmare"), tells us most of what we need to know. That you think they were wrongfully punished for doing something many teams were allegedly doing, yet "took one for the team," is laughable at best. But par for the course when it comes to you and the Pats.

 

Yes, JJ's being a fishing buddy of Belichick means something, because it taints his credibility/objectiveness on the matter. Surely even you know that friends cover for each other, especially when there are NO repercussions for the one sticking-up for the other. I mean, what was anyone going to do to JJ for his comments about Mudd? Take away a 1st round pick? Dock him $750K? Not to mention the allegations about Mudd were from a decade ago and almost as irrelevant as the Steelers using steroids back in the 70's, before they were even banned.

 

But keep on "not defending" the Pats, doc.

 

Was hoping the sour grapes, sore loser, crybaby crowd had given up in here but oh well.

 

You want to talk about teaching your children positive values - I'd speculate that teaching them that when you lose, the best thing you can do is to cry about it and call the other guy a cheater in a pathetic attempt to invalidate your own shortcomings is a good bit worse than pushing the envelope for competitive advantage.

Tell this drivel to Bernie Madoff's clients. "Hey, you lost. Suck it up."

 

But if you want to tell your kids to bend over and take it, go right ahead. It's a free country (for now).

[billsfan in n.h]

dont know if it has been posted but... the cowboys cheated in our 2nd superbowl.so says jimmy johnson. one of their guys was in the stands watching our walk thru and told the "boys" what to look for. like the shuttle pass. PATS STILL SUCK!!!

[ax4782]

Was hoping the sour grapes, sore loser, crybaby crowd had given up in here but oh well.

 

You want to talk about teaching your children positive values - I'd speculate that teaching them that when you lose, the best thing you can do is to cry about it and call the other guy a cheater in a pathetic attempt to invalidate your own shortcomings is a good bit worse than pushing the envelope for competitive advantage.

 

But as Bills fans, we know little about pushing for competitive advantage these days. Our biggest organizational innovation in the last decade has been to sell our home games for literal cash money compensation.

 

Yeah, it stinks that the Patriots are so much better than us. But please stop the whole running home to mommy thing - we are already being laughed at on the field. Don't humiliate yourself on some dumb message boards too. Self respect is worth holding on to.

 

The last sentence of this post was the only one that made sense, and unfortunately, was wholly oxymoronic. When you cheat and win, not once, not twice, but documented cheating before SB games? Where should that person's self-respect be found? In the trash. No one here is "crying to mommy" about the Pats beating the Bills because they were cheating. I'm certainly not. However, there was discussion at the time of the scandal that the Pats were doing this to teams like the Lions. Really? You needed video to beat the Lions in 2004-5? The discussion about the Patriots cheating to win games has nothing to do with the fact that they beat Buffalo all those years. We were so bad, they wouldn't have needed to do that to win. Sorry but that's true and any fan who watched the games here can and should admit that.

 

What the argument is about,is that the NFL and the sports news commentators continue their love affair with the Patriots for being such a great team and how they won all those Super Bowls and all those games etc. etc. The problem is, with all cheaters, their legacy should be tarnished. If a college team had done something like this, their title would have been taken away. That would have been the appropriate message to send to the Pats, taking their titles away for the years there was evidence they cheated. But, instead, they got a slap on the wrist, because the NFL couldn't afford to lose any of their fan base in the Northeast. That's the point of this

 

As for the parenting comments, yes parents are primarily responsible for teaching their children values and morals, and should hope that their children listen. But children have role models in society and people that they look up to. Those persons can influence what children do regardless of what a parent may tell them. And if everyone else tells them its okay to do X (i.e. cheat)but you tell them to do Y (i.e. not cheat) they would, perhaps be conflicted yes? Perhaps not in the perfect polly world where kids do everything their parents do, but in real life, yes. And if everyone is endorsing the idea that cheating is okay, and all you'll get is a slap on the wrist, but nothing else bad will happen to you, what do you think they're going to do? So to suggest that other people besides parents don't have ANY influence in how children make decisions, is perhaps misjudged.