Getting really tired of this Pats* cheater stuff.

[MattM]

Actually my statement is factually correct. Yes, we all know that all teams were aware of the rule banning this video-taping (thanks for the "wikipedia" reference, though!), but The NFL's Executive Vice President of Football Operations sent ALL teams a memo the prior season reminding them this is a violation of rules. That is a fact, Dean.

 

I have never described this as anything but cheating and foolish for BB to persist in doing---particlularly so blatantly. Hardly "defending". Sorry to wreck it for you.

 

Also, if is well known by opposing coaches know a HC is taping their D signals, why would they continue to display them? And where was the universal outcry from the coaches and owners in the league at getting ripped off? Only a handful said anything. I wonder why that is........

 

 

Probably because the League closed ranks on this issue rather than let it do more damage to their image, like the very good businessmen they are. Privately players and coaches were fuming, as per Dr. Z and Peter King's columns from that February if I recall correctly.....

[CardinalScotts]

How is this a non-issue? The Patriots won all three of their Super Bowls by a single field goal each time. There is no denying that knowing what the other team called was just enough to give them the edge and win those games.

 

...And what happened in the one Super Bowl that they couldn't cheat in?... They lost by a field goal.

 

It definitely would not have mattered in terms of the Bills, but it absolutely matters in a greater football sense.

 

I wasn't too upset over it but when I think Patriots and their super bowls the first thing that pops in my head is video taping etc. cheating. It's been a few years now- 20 years it might not be talked about but it's the first thing that came into my head and I'm not terribly upset about it

[Chalkie Gerzowski]

Yep, the Bills are going 0 - 16 as stand up guys, that's for sure. We will hold our heads high as the rest of the league and country laughs their butts off at us. Great. Pal, after this season, everyone will be giving up rooting for this team.

 

Buffalo is the classy Court Jester. Clay Matthews fake drops a deuce on Edwards' head and all is well with the world. Buffalo is the fan base that gets punched in the mouth and asks for more... a reflection of the team they follow.

[Rob's House]

I mean what did they really do? Video the Jets defensive coordinator in a game they were going to win anyway?

My point is if it's that easy to win in the NFL, WHEN ARE THE BILLS GOING TO START CHEATING. I would love to see them take on that eye gouging, no holds barred attitude. Pay off refs? Fine go for it. Microphone's in the opposing teams locker room? Do it.

Fine put a * next to their SB win. Chan-a cheat has a nice ring to it.

Come on Jim, you're better than this.

 

If and when the Bills have a SB win tainted by allegations of cheating, then you break out this argument. You don't defend the Pats, ever, even if they deserve defending, which they don't.

[KD in CA]

And what would have made you happy? Dissolving the Franchise?

 

 

No, I think just using the asterisk when referring to the Pats* and Brady* is sufficient. But you seem to be the one who has the issue here.

[NewHampshireBillsFan]

I have friends here in New England who take their kids to church every week and try hard to teach their kids to be decent kids, etc. But since they are also diehard Patsie* fans they tell their kids that the whole cheating thing with Belicheat* is overblown and everybody cheats to win in sports, etc. but the Cheaters* happened to be caught, etc.

 

All I'm saying is I'm glad I don't have to do that with my kids. I would hate to be a NE* fan if that is how I would have to raise my kids.

[Jim in Anchorage]

Whats with all this "the way I raise my kids" stuff?

My God they videoed A defensive coordinator standing in plain sight. Thats going to corrupt children's values? Jesus you people are bitter.

Why do coach's always cover their mouth with a play book when they send out plays? Maybe a team with a active interest in winning hired a lip reader with binoculars?

But don't worry about the Bills as a example for your children. Play dead, go 3-13 year after year and watch the dough roll in. Fine roll model.

[pkwwjd]

So ... we can agree to disagree. I believe that my morality is revealed through what I do & that my environment can help or hurt my moral development ... and others (some in this thread?) believe that our decisions are independent of our true values and are based in a moral vacuum -- not influenced by what we see or hear ...

 

Do I have that right?

[Jim in Anchorage]

No. Not if you expect someone to comprehend what you are trying to communicate.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Jim in Anchorage

[NewHampshireBillsFan]

Whats with all this "the way I raise my kids" stuff?

My God they videoed A defensive coordinator standing in plain sight. Thats going to corrupt children's values? Jesus you people are bitter.

Why do coach's always cover their mouth with a play book when they send out plays? Maybe a team with a active interest in winning hired a lip reader with binoculars?

But don't worry about the Bills as a example for your children. Play dead, go 3-13 year after year and watch the dough roll in. Fine roll model.

 

When I brought up Belicheat*'s antics to someone here (after he smirked when I told him I was a Bills fan), his attitude was cheating is part of sports, every one does it and some get caught. He mentioned that a HS soccer coach was penalized in New Hampshire for illegally videotaping some high school practice. Unlike Goodell however, the commissioner of this sport gave out a stiff penalty to this coach, apparently. So the attitude is everyone cheats in sports, even in high school, so what Belicheat* did is no big deal.

 

I have a problem with that attitude and teaching kids that is the way sports works.

 

To get a better idea of how the Pats* differed from other teams, check out the writings of Ross Tucker at SI.com. Tucker was an OL with the Bills, of course, but he also played on the Pats* and other NFL teams. His take is NE* always had an attitude different from the other teams he played with as far as abiding by rules. For example they had illegal players at practice and told Ross that everyone did that, but Ross says that none of the other teams he played for (incl. the Bills) flaunted rules like that.

 

Belicheat* is a brilliant, totally amoral, type of coach. He is probably not the only one, but not everyone is like him.

[Erik Flowers]

So if BB was cheating as coach of the patriots in the 2000's, was he also cheating back in 1989-1990 when he somehow managed to stop the greatest offense that had ever been assembled to that point???

[Green Lightning]

Whats with all this "the way I raise my kids" stuff?

My God they videoed A defensive coordinator standing in plain sight. Thats going to corrupt children's values? Jesus you people are bitter.

Why do coach's always cover their mouth with a play book when they send out plays? Maybe a team with a active interest in winning hired a lip reader with binoculars?

But don't worry about the Bills as a example for your children. Play dead, go 3-13 year after year and watch the dough roll in. Fine roll model.

 

 

Good way to end this Jim, go follow the freaking Patriots and revel in their cleverness and questionable morality. You'll be happier and we won't suffer dumb ass threads like this. What don't you get? They broke the rules, knowingly. Just becuase you think the rule is stupid is moot. They cheated. Deal with it. Now go ahead and enjoy your new team.

[pkwwjd]

So ... our actions do belie our values and our environment can influence our moral development. Then why do you (Jim) seem to declare that no one should worry about the actions of a professional (and some would say 'model' over the last decade) franchise? If you're simply saying that it hasn't impacted your moral development ... fine. Say that. I work with teens on a daily basis and see the effect that large & small segments of popular culture has many, if not all, of the kids I see. It is incorrect to make a blanket statement to say that no one's moral development can be harmed by cheating -- and cheat is what the Pats did (however small of an infraction you may see it as).

Edited September 24, 2010 by pkwwjd

[Mr. WEO]

So ... our actions do belie our values and our environment can influence our moral development. Then why do you (Jim) seem to declare that no one should worry about the actions of a professional (and some would say 'model' over the last decade) franchise? If you're simply saying that it hasn't impacted your moral development ... fine. Say that. I work with teens on a daily basis and see the effect that large & small segments of popular culture has many, if not all, of the kids I see. It is incorrect to make a blanket statement to say that no one's moral development can be harmed by cheating -- and cheat is what the Pats did (however small of an infraction you may see it as).

Since there is no rule against stealing signals, what if NE deciphered opposing signals the old fashioned way (the way it has been done by all teams since signalling began)by having staffers record their observations of the opposing signalers? Is that cheating?

 

If the answer is no then what is the moral dilemma being discussed?

 

If the answer is yes, than what team hasn't stolen signals (cheated)?

[Punch]

Whats with all this "the way I raise my kids" stuff?

My God they videoed A defensive coordinator standing in plain sight. Thats going to corrupt children's values? Jesus you people are bitter.

Why do coach's always cover their mouth with a play book when they send out plays? Maybe a team with a active interest in winning hired a lip reader with binoculars?

But don't worry about the Bills as a example for your children. Play dead, go 3-13 year after year and watch the dough roll in. Fine roll model.

 

The only one that sounds bitter in this thread is you. You started the thread, after all, so you're the one with the problem. If you really want documentation of NFL players, coaches, and front office personnel on record accusing the Patriots of cheating there is a plethora available for you to peruse. Why not go study that material rather than pick a fight with a group of people embracing reality?

 

My opinion: The Bills have not been good enough to win consistently in this league since 1999. This is completely disconnected from whatever methods the Patriots employ in their preparations. The fact that they have literally been caught cheating by the league and reprimanded for it has no bearing on how well the Bills organization is run--- but I am not going to excuse the Pats for their cheating. Two separate issues, both disheartening to me for completely different reasons.

[LABills08]

I mean what did they really do? Video the Jets defensive coordinator in a game they were going to win anyway?

My point is if it's that easy to win in the NFL, WHEN ARE THE BILLS GOING TO START CHEATING. I would love to see them take on that eye gouging, no holds barred attitude. Pay off refs? Fine go for it. Microphone's in the opposing teams locker room? Do it.

Fine put a * next to their SB win. Chan-a cheat has a nice ring to it.

 

Disagree about the cheating aspect. Though, I imagine that the Patriots weren't the only team clever enough to use that strategy. I just think the ganging up on the Patriots is over done.

 

 

Bills fans should remember that up until 2000, the Patriots were the joke of the NFL. They always had a bad team. In a way, they are a sign of things that be coming.

[BB of Long Island]

And what would have made you happy? Dissolving the Franchise? A ASSISTANT COACH VIDEOED A JETS ASSISTANT COACH DURING A GAME. Oh whoopee do. Again I am waiting for more proven cheating examples.

 

Jests game was not the only one. There were stories out there that they had video taped the Rams walk through prior to the Superbowl. Nothing ever proven but I wouldn't have put it past them...

 

I think I just made everyones point...if they did it against the Jests, they probably did it against the Rams and thus their Superbowl win that years is severly tainted.

[Mr. WEO]

Jests game was not the only one. There were stories out there that they had video taped the Rams walk through prior to the Superbowl. Nothing ever proven but I wouldn't have put it past them...

I think I just made everyones point...if they did it against the Jests, they probably did it against the Rams and thus their Superbowl win that years is severly tainted.

No, you didn't. You just proved that you weren't paying much attention back then. There was no walk-through tape. It was a hoax insinuated by Matt Walsh and his lawyer and perpetuated by bogus journalism and shoddy editing at the Boston Herald. All involved admitted there was no taped walk through.

 

And we actually DID land on the moon in 1969. Fixed that one for you too.

[pkwwjd]

ESPN timeline of events of "Spygate"

 

"Mortensen also reports that Belichick has privately told Goodell he has been taping opponents' signals since he became the Pats' head coach in 2000."

 

then later (5 or so months after the original meeting between Belichick & Goodell) ...

 

"Asked twice how far back the Patriots began to tape their opponents' signals, Goodell doesn't give a specific answer. There is no mention from Goodell that the practice dated back to 2000."

 

Would have been a great time to say "Nope, this was an isolated incident based on a misunderstanding or misapplication of the rule" ... but there is no statement to that regard.

[Sabre Bill]

I think there's a few different lines that can be drawn. The USC issue, in my opinion, was a joke. Reggie Bush was by far the best player in college football that year. Where his parents were living had zero impact on his on-field performance. While it was certainly an "eligibility infraction" it had NOTHING to do with the competitive balance on the field. The same cannot be said for steroids, illegal video recording, etc. That is deliberate performance-enhancing cheating.

 

The NCAA wouldn't have cared less if Bush's parents were sleeping in a cardboard box under a bridge, as long as they could keep selling those red #5 jerseys and using his likeness on promos and publications. As an organization, the NCAA made hundreds of million dollars selling and exploiting Bush, and then determined it was appropriate to punish student-athletes at the school five years later.

 

I would never defend the NCAA* (thought I'd throw them under the asterisk bus like the Patriots*!) and their focus on RBush is a hypocritical travesty, ... but rules are set to give everyone a fair/equal chance. The fact that the NCAA* can't follow their own rules with any credibility or reliability doesn't immunize USC from their responsibility to follow the rules. In the Reggie B situation, he doesn't gain an advantage, but SC seemingly does. They get a stud offensive weapon who might have played for someone else if they had followed the rules.

 

You missed my point. I brought it up? Look at any post on here where the Pats are mentioned. Always the Pats*, Belicheat,etc. So now it's HGH? All lame excuses.

 

Face it. The Pats*[there, happy] owned the Bills in the 2000s, as the Bills owned Miami in the 90s, and Miami owned the Bills in the 70s. Better players, better organization? Hell no they where all on drugs and dealt from the bottom of the deck! The Bills could have won two Super Bowls if the Pats played by the rules! Really the whining on here over trivial incidents is embarrassing.

 

Again, the only whining I've seen here has come from you. I don't spend much time thinking about the Pats*, it certainly wouldn't have been part of my day today but for you.