Trint surprised he was benched

[zow2]

The book on Trent has been written and now hopefully placed on the history shelves for good. Trent may look ok in practice. In a live game though, Trent needs the play to go exactly as played out on the chalkboard plus with 5 seconds of flawless protection. If any tiny aspect of the play breaks down and causes it to not be executed to perfection, the man has no ability to improvise. Of course nearly every play is gonna break down because defensive coordinators know he sucks...and they send extra people and rattle him into rushing his decisions (which often leads to checkdown passes or sacks). Trent is also the worst QB i've ever seen at trying to burn the blitz or completing a meaningful pass in obvious passing situations.

I saw McNabb and Shaub last week getting hurried and pressured like crazy and they managed to complete beautiful passes downfield. Shaub was getting crushed and still made plays. Trent isn't even in that same league of a QB.

[TheChimp]

I think most would agree, but with Trent there seems to be issues "on top of" his O-line's play.

 

Nobody expects Fitz to light the world on fire, but you can bet that on 3rd and long, he'll be attempting a first down pass instead of checking down or tucking and folding. Those appear to be the differences in Trent and Fitz; he gives his WR's a chance to make plays whereas Trent will not.

 

But like I said, most would agree that our O-line is laughably deficient.

Thing is, so are our receivers. None of them get open, pretty much ever. Combine that with a QB who acts like he's been contacted by the Mob who told him that if he throws an INT they'll start cutting off his family's fingers, and yes, that highly offensive line of his, and you have 0-16. Maybe with Fitz we'll win enough games to go 4-12 and lose the #1 pick yet again.

 

Yeah, awesome idea.

[starrymessenger]

The book on Trent has been written and now hopefully placed on the history shelves for good. Trent may look ok in practice. In a live game though, Trent needs the play to go exactly as played out on the chalkboard plus with 5 seconds of flawless protection. If any tiny aspect of the play breaks down and causes it to not be executed to perfection, the man has no ability to improvise. Of course nearly every play is gonna break down because defensive coordinators know he sucks...and they send extra people and rattle him into rushing his decisions (which often leads to checkdown passes or sacks). Trent is also the worst QB i've ever seen at trying to burn the blitz or completing a meaningful pass in obvious passing situations.

I saw McNabb and Shaub last week getting hurried and pressured like crazy and they managed to complete beautiful passes downfield. Shaub was getting crushed and still made plays. Trent isn't even in that same league of a QB.

You pretty much sum it up correctly. Maybe its been so long since a good QB played in Buffalo that some fans have forgotten what a good QB actually looks like. McNabb was not playing behind a great O-line in Washington Monday night (and neither was Schaub). He was behind a rather poor one. Playing on a gimpy ankle he was twice just a few inches from completing bombs to his not so wonderful receiving corps that would have given him 500+ yards passing. That 70 yard bomb to Armstrong (I believe) was a frozen rope. Trent has never thrown a pass like that. Actually, he doesn't need to. His arm is not Donovan's but it is strong enough (even though I find his long ball to be a bit of a floater). The point is he doesn't try those throws. Believe me, you would not recognize our receivers (and our entire offensive production) if McNabb was lining up under center for the Bills.

On AFC playbook last week, they showed the distribution of the Bills receivers in a play during the Miami game. They were making the point that his receivers were pretty much covered. But they were wrong. We know, or should know, better. There was one, perhaps two receivers in the seams between DBs. Teams with good passing games exploit situations like that. The receiver turns upfield, the quarterback throws it deep and maybe good things happen. At the very least this loosens up the defence, gives you a better chance to make throws underneath or use the run game more effectively. Funny thing about the Bills receivers was that they were standing pretty much still fully facing Trent. No chemistry? Maybe, but whose fault is that? I suspect that you get this when your quarterback won't throw with anticipation of how a play may develop but looks instead for targets that are standing alone by themselves as in a pasture. That doesn't happen often enough in the NFL to make it a winning strategy.

Trent does not have an intermediate to long passing game. Makes him, and the Bills, pretty easy to defend.

So why doesn't he throw the ball downfield (I mean enough to make a difference to the defensive strategy)? I think that there are three possible answers.

1) He really just can't do it. For whatever reason, possibly but not necessarily because of injury, he cannot process the information before him quickly enough to have the anticipation to hit big plays in the passing game. For those who are of this view, the conclusion is pretty straightforward. Trent simply lacks a component of every good NFL QB's skill set. There is no shame in that. Very few college QBs have that skill set, which is nevertheless a requirement for success at this level.

2) He just doesn't care, doesn't have IT, would rather play golf, has no passion, the game is just not in his blood in the way that it is in every hard bitten player's blood, not a leader etc... He does seem somewhat spaced out sometimes, but, for what its worth, I personally believe he does care and does tries to be a leader. I think thats why he crushed a Chiefs DB a couple of years ago and why I have seen him this year make stupid unnecessary contract insteadof stepping out of bounds. I remember the live video of him with his friends and family when he was drafted by the Bills in the third. He looked ecstatic exactly like any college player would look when drafted by an NFL team. Its possible that he plays only because football offers him the potential of a better paycheck than his golf game does, but I'm not saying that and I prefer not to believe it. If its true on the other hand well then I would be with those who claim he doesn't have the psychological profile of an NFL quarterback (which is, after all a job requirement).

3)The last thing that comes to mind (at least my mind) is that Trent has a mental block. As he has said himself, he is a perfectionist. But unfortunately, there is way too much chaos and mayhem on an NFL playing field for a perfectionist to be a successful quarterback. Philip Rivers was saying on a Total Access segment last year that you need to take chances and run risks in the passing game. Even the greatest QBs will get intercepted. Trent appears unable to overcome the hurdle that prevents him from taking risks. If, as many suspect, he actually otherwise has the physical skills and the basic football smarts needed to be succesful, then this would truly be tragic, but clearly more so for him than for any of us fans or the Bills either for that matter. We'll just move on to the next JK heir apparent and relegate Trent to football scrapheat. But he will have lost an opportunity for a career as an NFL quarterback, with all the money and other perks that come with the turf, and for a reason that is probably not a good and sufficient reason. If this is the problem, then I feel sorry for him. I don't like to see people fail.

[The Dean]

I disagree with the bolded statement. If you were watching Bills games back in the Super Bowl years, you probably remember the AFC Championship game. The Houston Oilers had been a hot team that year, and had won eleven or twelve straight regular season games. However, Joe Montana and the Kansas City Chiefs had knocked them out of the playoffs in the divisional round; in a game that proved to be a shootout. Then the Chiefs came to Buffalo for the AFC Championship Game.

 

 

I think he may have overstated his case a bit, but he has a point. There are QBs who have performed pretty well, overall, with a weak offensive line. Most (maybe all) QBs suffer with pressure. Joe Montana was no exception. But it is hard to argue that Big Ben and Arron Rodgers, to name two recent QBs, have performed well with poor OLs.

 

Montana and Brady aren't the best examples of these QBs, by the way. They rarely dealt with pressure for an entire game. But I think its fair to say consistent pressure is detrimental to QB performance. But not all QBs respond equally well (or poorly) to pressure. Trent seems to perform unusually poorly under pressure, to the point he performs poorly if there isn't pressure. To make matters worse, he doesn't perform well while on the run/rolling out. Clearly there are QBs who excel at that.

[CardinalScotts]

Funny how a lack of effort can cause you to lose your job. My boss always gave me another chance when I underachieved.

 

everyone I ever knew he who been fired was suprised

[Peter]

Are you referring to the Jay Cutler who lead the league in interceptions last year?

 

How is it that Jay Cutler can throw for 300+ yards and touchdowns galore behind an offensive line that is widely considered to be the worst in tue NFL?

 

Sure, an elite-level offensive line can elevate a bad quarterback to a mediocre one. But an elite-level quarterback gets the job done in any conditions.

 

Do we want only one of those deficiencies fixed? No.

 

Is getting elite-level quarterback play the single most important trait of consistently winning franchises? Oh hell yes.

[5 Wide]

Yeah, and thats why our offense isn't producing, 'cuz he didn't chuck it on 4th and 11. Should he have? Yeah. Is that the reason we were that desperate in the first place? Hardly. The things wrong with this offense are not going to be solved by benching Trent.

 

So you don't believe in a microcosm? I think the point is if he won't even throw it when the alternative is turning it over anyway, then his mindset, and attitude are not conducive to a guy you can even remotely count on to make people around him better.

[The Dean]

Are you referring to the Jay Cutler who lead the league in interceptions last year?

 

 

I'm no Cutler fan, but he operates under pressure far better than Trent. First of all, he can actually throw on the run, something Trent had failed to master. Does he throw INTS? He sure does. He also throws TD passes.

 

I know this will sound weird, but I would have more faith in Trent eventually becoming a legit QB if he threw an INT once in a while. (I know he has 2 INTS, but they aren't the kind I'm talking about.) I'd be happier if Trent threw deep on a risky throw, which would result in the occasionally turnover. He plays it FAR too safe. While it may limit turnovers, it severely limits his production and does nothing to stretch the field and loosen up the D.

[DCBongo]

You guys are unbelievable.

 

Of course the guy was surprised. He is being made the scapegoat for the whole offense. Fred Jackson's quote shows that Fred has a lot more class than Lee Evans.

 

Trent also showed a lot of class by saying how much he cares for "this team" and "this organization." Of course, the haters will make of it as they will.

 

Maybe one day when my kids have kids, the Buffalo Bills will recognize that we need to have an NFL quality offensive line and whoever the QB and RBs are at that time will be the beneficiaries. It has been freaken years since I was confident about our offensive line.

 

Just my two cents. Don't let me interrupt your circle jerk.

 

I don't think TE cares at this point, but he is a professional, has class and wants to be on an NFL team. So, when you get benched you say the right things and don't become a distraction. TE has regressed since his first year, he no longer rolls out and throws down field. He ain't got it. But in his defense the only QBs who could experience success with this 3rd rate Oline is Doug Flutie or Fran Tarkington. This line could make Jimbo look bad.

Let Fitz have some starts, then let BB have a few games and see if we have a Qb worth keeping on this team.

[Orton's Arm]

I think he may have overstated his case a bit, but he has a point. There are QBs who have performed pretty well, overall, with a weak offensive line. Most (maybe all) QBs suffer with pressure. Joe Montana was no exception. But it is hard to argue that Big Ben and Arron Rodgers, to name two recent QBs, have performed well with poor OLs.

 

Montana and Brady aren't the best examples of these QBs, by the way. They rarely dealt with pressure for an entire game. But I think its fair to say consistent pressure is detrimental to QB performance. But not all QBs respond equally well (or poorly) to pressure. Trent seems to perform unusually poorly under pressure, to the point he performs poorly if there isn't pressure. To make matters worse, he doesn't perform well while on the run/rolling out. Clearly there are QBs who excel at that.

Your points are well-taken. I remember how Brady's play took a big step downward when the Giants defense dominated his OL in that Superbowl. You're right: it's possible for a QB to produce at a high level even with bad OL play, but guys like Rodgers and Roethlisberger are better examples of that than Montana or Brady. (Though Montana and Brady are or were better quarterbacks overall.)

 

Another quarterback who was good at compensating for bad OL play was Kelly Holcomb. Granted, he didn't have the arm strength to make all the throws. But if you're playing behind the joke OL he had in 2005, you're not going to be able to stand in the pocket for 5 seconds waiting for long bombs to open up anyway. What impressed me about Holcomb's play was that in every Bills game he played from start to finish, the offense scored at least 14 points. Considering the way his OL was consistently dominated, and the running game was frequently shut down, 14 points per game minimum is pretty solid. He also came close to leading to the Bills to victory in Foxboro, in a game where our defense didn't play particularly well. Compare that game to how Drew Bledsoe usually did against the Patriots: his look of dejection, his head hanging down, and complete, thorough Patriots domination from the very first snap. Based on the litmus test of the Patriots, Kelly Holcomb was the best QB the Bills have had in the last ten years.

[The Dean]

Kelly Holcomb was the best QB the Bills have had in the last ten years.

 

 

 

 

Yes, I understand you were basing that solely on the performance against the Pats...but still...

 

In some ways, Fitz is like Holcomb, but with a much better skill-set.

[billsrcursed]

Thing is, so are our receivers. None of them get open, pretty much ever. Combine that with a QB who acts like he's been contacted by the Mob who told him that if he throws an INT they'll start cutting off his family's fingers, and yes, that highly offensive line of his, and you have 0-16. Maybe with Fitz we'll win enough games to go 4-12 and lose the #1 pick yet again.

 

Yeah, awesome idea.

 

You're in the minority as far as open receivers go. I couldn't tell you if they're open or not, I don't go to the games.

 

I also don't have one of those fancy new TV's that allow for me to see the WR's downfield.

 

I see your point about winning 4 games instead of 0, but I can't bring myself to "hope" for losses when we're 2 games into a 16 game schedule. When the day comes I find myself hoping we lose, I'll stop cheering for them all-together and focus my time on something more constructive, like jaywalking or something...

[Orton's Arm]

 

 

 

Yes, I understand you were basing that solely on the performance against the Pats...but still...

 

In some ways, Fitz is like Holcomb, but with a much better skill-set.

I like that Fitzpatrick plays loose, and that he's willing (and has the arm strength) to take his shots downfield. But his throws are also erratic: a good throw will be followed by another that's completely off-target.

 

I looked up the numbers for the most important QBs we've had in Buffalo over the past decade. The numbers (Buffalo time only) are these:

 

Player___Yards/attempt____Rating

 

Rob Johnson______7.2___83.4

Drew Bledsoe_____6.6___78.5

Kelly Holcomb____6.6___85.6

J.P Losman_______6.6___76.2

Trent Edwards____6.5___77.8

Ryan Fitzpatrick:_6.3__69.7

 

On the surface, those quarterbacks look statistically similar, with Rob Johnson a little above the pack, and Ryan Fitzpatrick a little below it. But it's worth noting that Johnson's numbers are a little inflated, because he was basically a sack waiting to happen.

 

The quality of supporting casts should also be noted. Most quarterbacks on that list had at least one season of credible pass protection. Rob Johnson had John Fina at LT, and a below-average (but still credible) OL when it came to pass protection. Drew Bledsoe's pass protection was probably in the C- range during his time in Buffalo. Jonas Jennings was at LT (at least when he wasn't hurt), and there were several other average or below-average (but still decent) offensive linemen. Holcomb had no pass protection whatsoever: the Bills' OL of 2005 was an embarrassment to the franchise. The line's pass protection considerably improved during 2006, thereby benefiting Losman. The line has gone downhill since then, with last season being especially bad. Holcomb's and Fitzpatrick's numbers were achieved under worse circumstances than those of the other QBs on the list.

 

After taking into account the quality of offensive line play, Holcomb was clearly a better QB for the Bills than Bledsoe. Even without adjustments to the numbers, Holcomb's average yards per pass is the same as Bledsoe's, and his QB rating is higher. Considering that Bledsoe achieved those stats with pass protection, and Holcomb achieved moderately better stats without, there's no question as to which QB's play was better for the Bills. That difference in their respective levels of play was especially visible in games against the Patriots. Those games were a crucible that burned away all but the best mentally prepared QBs. That crucible converted Bledsoe to ash, but Holcomb emerged from it looking like shining gold.

 

I'll conclude by saying this: the fact that Kelly Holcomb was (probably) the best QB the Bills have had in the past decade says something about the quality of QBs we've had over that time. It's high time this franchise used a top-10 pick on a polished pocket passer of a college QB: a guy like Luck or Ponder.