In climb back to contention, franchise needs to bottom out

[The Dean]

Further evidence that Sully doesn't understand today's NFL.

[BuffaloWings]

We hit bottom last year, 6-10 is bottom when coupled with the 7-9s b4 thats about as low as it should go.

Agreed. Forget about the records...we hit bottom because there was no direction from the coaching staff or front office. That's worse to me than what happened in 2001 when TD gutted the team and hired GW to rebuild it. As someone said, at least we knew back then that things were going to be bad, but there was a direction.

 

Everyone here is optimistic because Gailey is the anti-Jauron and Nix has a football personnel background. The on-the-field product still has issues and question marks, but at least we (well, maybe just me) feel better because there's a group of men with NFL experience running the ship. We're not talking Superbowl, just a team to feel better about.

 

As for Sullivan, I disagree. Teams don't need to "bottom out" to get better. There are situations where that may need to happen, but not always. It's disturbing that he thinks they need to get a high pick in order to improve. Let's see how the first 3-4 weeks play out before we start worrying about what pick we'll get.

Edited September 9, 2010 by BuffaloWings

[murra]

I know, they got the No. 4 overall pick after '01 and wasted it on Mike Williams. That's no reason to be fearful of picking high. It's loser thinking.

 

But its not loser thinking to wish the team to lose?

Edited September 9, 2010 by murra

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Here's yet another example of how a "professional" could benefit greatly simply by visiting ignominious little fan forums like ours.

 

We've had this discussion about "rebuilding curves" many times now.

 

His assumption (which is also the title of his piece) is flawed.

 

What are the last teams to win a Super Bowl?

 

How many of them had to "bottom out" with a 3-4 win season in order to commence a rebuilding project?

 

Dave McBride and Rico, you guys seem to agree with Sullivan. Seeing as he won't answer these questions, hows about one of you guys give it a stab?

 

In a related concept, as many of us mention every single time this subject comes up,

 

It's not where you draft…it's how you draft.

 

So again, how many of the last several Super Bowl teams had to "bottom out" in order to get better?

[Chandler#81]

20 years? He thinks that's enough to talk the talk? Pffffft! Come back when you have 3x that Jerry, then we'll talk. How convenient of this 'noted' sports journalist to neglect the recent history of the defending champs from Nawlins'. 7-9 in '07 & 8-8 in '08. Granted, they didn't clean house, but they certainly tweeked the team and it's direction. Result: Super Bowl Champ in one turnaround year. They didn't tank the season to get high picks- hell, no one does. I feel bad for my beloved WNYers. You used to have great sports writers -even by national comparison. Nowadays, you make Jacksonville look good by comparison.

 

Very grim.

[Another Point of View]

Here's yet another example of how a "professional" could benefit greatly simply by visiting ignominious little fan forums like ours.

 

We've had this discussion about "rebuilding curves" many times now.

 

His assumption (which is also the title of his piece) is flawed.

 

What are the last teams to win a Super Bowl?

 

How many of them had to "bottom out" with a 3-4 win season in order to commence a rebuilding project?

 

Dave McBride and Rico, you guys seem to agree with Sullivan. Seeing as he won't answer these questions, hows about one of you guys give it a stab?

 

In a related concept, as many of us mention every single time this subject comes up,

 

It's not where you draft…it's how you draft.

 

So again, how many of the last several Super Bowl teams had to "bottom out" in order to get better?

 

 

Great. great response,I agree

[billsfan1959]

20 years? He thinks that's enough to talk the talk? Pffffft! Come back when you have 3x that Jerry, then we'll talk. How convenient of this 'noted' sports journalist to neglect the recent history of the defending champs from Nawlins'. 7-9 in '07 & 8-8 in '08. Granted, they didn't clean house, but they certainly tweeked the team and it's direction. Result: Super Bowl Champ in one turnaround year. They didn't tank the season to get high picks- hell, no one does. I feel bad for my beloved WNYers. You used to have great sports writers -even by national comparison. Nowadays, you make Jacksonville look good by comparison.

 

Very grim.

 

I think sports journalism in Western New York has to hit rock bottom before it gets better

[Another Point of View]

I think sports journalism in Western New York has to hit rock bottom before it gets better

 

I would say we hit rock bottom 19 years ago!

[The Dean]

I would say we hit rock bottom 19 years ago!

 

 

And like football in Detroit, hasn't gotten any better.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I think sports journalism in Western New York has to hit rock bottom before it gets better

 

BRILLIANT!!!

 

 

I would say we hit rock bottom 19 years ago!

And like football in Detroit, hasn't gotten any better.

 

Exactly, Dean. How many times do the Detroit Lions have to "bottom out" before they get better? They've been the worst team or among the worst teams in the league how many years now?

 

 

I can see where Sully actually tried this time to present a fair and comprehensive piece instead of his usual irreverant, flip, and sloppy work.

 

But again, simply by spending a few minutes a day on this board, he'd be a much better football observer.

 

His takes are like The Stadium Wall 101, undeveloped and unthoughtful.

 

The very thesis of his latest piece is flawed in such a basic and elementary way that could be avoided if he actually engaged the people here who are much more serious observers of football than he is.

 

There are some posters on this board that are light years beyond Sully in every measurable way.

 

Sully supporters…it's your turn. Still haven't heard back from those who thought this was a good piece.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Have to agree with those that said the franchise crashed and burned last year. They started the season in complete chaos and total disarray as many have noted.

 

This year, the W-L record may be even worse, but there is a sense that there are some people around that are going to honestly try to put out the fires rather than run around with bags of marshmellows and singing "Happy Days Are Here Again".

 

Have to agree with Sully on the Modrak point though. You are how you draft and the Bills draft history under this guy has been putrid. I realize Dick Jauron had his say in the war room (and have been saying it all along), but at some point someone in the organization needs to evaluate Modrak's input into the process and figure out why the Bills collectively have drafted some big time busts this past decade. If Modrak's input and function is nothing more than to go along with whatever the prevailing winds are in the war room, it's high time to move in a different direction and let someone else -- Whaley? -- have a real go at the job.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Sisyphean Bills

[John Belucheese]

Jerry is a writer and NOT a football player; Even if he was young and with the physical tools he has NO heart to play this amazing game. I witnessed Mike Utley get paralyzed in Detroit, Ive seen teammates in college get maimed and their careers vanished.The force and energy of football must be played at full speed and players cannot take plays off especially at the professional level. NO TAKING PLAYS OFF bc not only do you risk getting hurt, but a teammate may suffer if you do not try your hardest. Each team must play their hardest for the entire season. the effort may or may not equate into Wins but at least the game was played right. Franchise QBs can be found in lower rounds (Brady)they can be discovered when theyre 2nd or 3rd strings (Favre at atlanta). So Sullivan wants to be the bad ass to pop the excitment bubble well its not gonna work bc this is the NFL and on any given Sunday. Its been proven over and over again that underdogs can rise. A losing season hurts everybody, the value of a player, the value of the franchise, job security and fan base. The minute this team lays down im done w/ them they can go 0-16 and I'd still be down w them so long as they WENT BALLS OUT trying. One positive thing about Sullivan's article is that perhaps it will help the fins underestimate our team. Perhaps that was the only way that this a manipulator can help us win. You don't manipulate the spirit of the game; you must play it hard and with all your might despite whatever off season mistakes or bad risks were made.

[KOKBILLS]

Have to agree with those that said the franchise crashed and burned last year. They started the season in complete chaos and total disarray as many have noted.

 

This year, the W-L record may be even worse, but there is a sense that there are some people around that are going to honestly try to put out the fires rather than run around with bags of marshmellows and singing "Happy Days Are Here Again".

 

Have to agree with Sully on the Modrak point though. You are how you draft and the Bills draft history under this guy has been putrid. I realize Dick Jauron had his say in the war room (and have been saying it all along), but at some point someone in the organization needs to evaluate Modrak's input into the process and figure out why the Bills collectively have drafted some big time busts this past decade. If Modrak's input and function is nothing more than to go along with whatever the prevailing winds are in the war room, it's high time to move in a different direction and let someone else -- Whaley? -- have a real go at the job.

 

I'm pretty sure Modrak's role has been watered down quite a bit now that Buddy and Chan are in charge...I think the fact that they kept him around is proof Buddy respects his ability to Scout (and I'm not certain why that is... ), but he's not going to have much of a say any longer in who gets selected...That's just my take on it...

 

I think Sully's going to be a bit disappointed when it's all said and done this Season because I doubt very much this version of The Buffalo Bills is a 3-13 or 4-12 Team...Just the same way I doubt they are a 10-6 or 11-5 Team...I think in the end they will finish between 7-9 and 9-7 and if they want a 1st Round QB they are just going to have to maneuver in the 1st Round to assure that...I just can't see how this Team is that much worse than Last Season when they finished 6-10 and lost 5 Games by a TD or less...3 of those by 3 points or less including games vs. the Pats and Browns that they simply pissed away...How in the world are they going to be worse than that in 2010?

 

I don't know...I could be wrong...But I'm thinking this Team bottomed-out last Season and somehow, some way by the grace of God, won 6 Games while doing so...We'll see soon enough though...

[Sisyphean Bills]

I'm pretty sure Modrak's role has been watered down quite a bit now that Buddy and Chan are in charge...I think the fact that they kept him around is proof Buddy respects his ability to Scout (and I'm not certain why that is... ), but he's not going to have much of a say any longer in who gets selected...That's just my take on it...

Hope that is true...

 

I'd like Nix to take on the bigger picture though, and not be the main college scout. I'd like to see him reorganize the college scouting of the franchise and upgrade the talent there, frankly.

I think Sully's going to be a bit disappointed when it's all said and done this Season because I doubt very much this version of The Buffalo Bills is a 3-13 or 4-12 Team...Just the same way I doubt they are a 10-6 or 11-5 Team...I think in the end they will finish between 7-9 and 9-7 and if they want a 1st Round QB they are just going to have to maneuver in the 1st Round to assure that...I just can't see how this Team is that much worse than Last Season when they finished 6-10 and lost 5 Games by a TD or less...3 of those by 3 points or less including games vs. the Pats and Browns that they simply pissed away...How in the world are they going to be worse than that in 2010?

 

I don't know...I could be wrong...But I'm thinking this Team bottomed-out last Season and somehow, some way by the grace of God, won 6 Games while doing so...We'll see soon enough though...

I take little or nothing from last season as a basis for this season. Everything is different, or enough different, that I don't see really much basis for comparison or using last year's results as a basis to say how this year's team will do. The Bills won and stayed in games last year on the strength of their defense, a defense that Jauron and Fewell put together and had developed for 4 straight years. While Jauron had his problems with offense and building a winning club, he did know something about defense. All of that was jettisoned, and from what I have seen so far, not for the better.

[stony]

JS gives lazy generalizations. I know some of you hate on Bill Simmons, but everyone is familiar with his columns. His dad, or at least the character he creates as his "dad", reminds me so much of Jerry Sullivan. Broad, generalized points, that often are correct, but only because the points are so sweeping. Something like, "the Bills are going to be bad this year because they aren't a good team". Or "the Bills really need to get QB in next years draft". Or "They really need to rip everything apart and start over to be good". These points all have merits, but they are incredibly lazy. They ignore all details. Specifically, that getting the 1st or 2nd overall pick, is often a curse because it gives the front office little to no flexibility and handcuffs them to a high salary for an unknown commodity. Or the fact that the Bills are essentially in rebuilding mode and the team is as close as it can get to "starting over". The only players we have that are making money aside from Lee Evans are our draft picks, so we have financial flexibility so to speak. Plus, I believe the Bills have one of the youngest squads in the NFL. We have a new coach and GM (they weren't the names that Sullivan wanted, but so far so good). I mean, what else does he want?

 

Point being, I don't hate on JS as much as the rest of you. His negativity is fair, the Bills as a franchise have been insufferable for over a decade. So I could care less about the negativity of his views, so long as they aren't lazy views. I mean, Buff News isn't the NY Times, but it isn't a college newspaper either. How about some insight and analysis? Not just things that I could get from one of my dad's rants.

 

His dad is real, he shows pictures of him in his columns, now about that Sports Gal...

 

My thing is that Simmons uses his dad as figure in his columns to show the pulse, often reactionary, of a given sports team fan base. Generalizations, yes, but they’re usually during a game or right after it that exhibit pure emotion. JS, who I don’t hate either, is a columnist that has days, weeks to craft his columns.

[Kelly the Dog]

1998

P. Manning 1

R. Leaf 2

 

1999

T. Couch 1

D. McNabb 2

Akili Smith 3

D. Culpepper 11

C. McNown 12

 

2000

C. Pennington 18

 

2001

M. Vick 1

 

2002

D. Carr 1

J. Harrington 3

P. Ramsey 32

 

2003

C. Palmer 1

B. Leftwich 7

K. Boller 19

R. Grossman 22

 

2004

E. Manning 1

P. Rivers 4

B. Roethlisberger 11

JP Losman 22

 

2005

Alex Smith 1

A. Rodgers 24

J. Campbell 25

 

2006

V. Young 3

M. Leinart 10

J. Cutler 11

 

2007

J. Russel 1

B. Quinn 22

 

2008

M. Ryan 3

J. Flacco 18

 

2009

M. Stafford 1

M. Sanchez 5

J. Freeman 17

 

2010

S. Bradford 1

T. Tebow 25

 

So there have been 35 #1's since 1998. I would say at most 10 of them are a QB we would love to have leading our team, and perhaps 13 if you count Stafford, Sanchez and Bradford.

 

By tanking the season I would say that would be (arbitrarily) in the top three picks. In that case, there were 14 of them before Stafford and Bradford where the jury is still out (although for the benefit of the doubt, I would say I would love to have either of them on my team right now, even not knowing their future). Of the 14 I would say 6 were someone you would want for sure and a couple others MAYBE (like Vick pre-prison, or Vince Young or Alex Smith) whom a lot of fans and coaches may not want.

[CardinalScotts]

That's a good article by Sully, I must say.

 

Been PROVEN over and over you don't need to bottom out

[tennesseeboy]

This is our problem in a nutshell from the article:

 

"This is still a team with a lot of problems, and a glaring shortage of talent. They have no established No. 2 receiver, inferior offensive tackles, a weak linebacking corps that will struggle in coverage and in the pass rush. The same defensive linemen who struggled against the run last season will be adjusting to a 3-4."

 

The defense is a work in progress and hopefully the front 7 will improve with each week. I have no doubt that we are deep in high quality and aggressive cornerbacks and safeties.

 

The offensive tackles are an issue but so far they are looking less than awful and we might produce. The lack of a number 2 receiver when we got rid of Owens and Reed out of the box is pretty inexcusable.

 

We'll know a lot more on Monday morning than we do now.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

The defense is a work in progress and hopefully the front 7 will improve with each week. I have no doubt that we are deep in high quality and aggressive cornerbacks and safeties.

 

The offensive tackles are an issue but so far they are looking less than awful and we might produce. The lack of a number 2 receiver when we got rid of Owens and Reed out of the box is pretty inexcusable.

 

We'll know a lot more on Monday morning than we do now.

We've had this discussion about "rebuilding curves" many times now.

 

His assumption (which is also the title of his piece) is flawed.

 

What are the last teams to win a Super Bowl?

 

How many of them had to "bottom out" with a 3-4 win season in order to commence a rebuilding project?

 

Dave McBride and Rico, you guys seem to agree with Sullivan. Seeing as he won't answer these questions, hows about one of you guys give it a stab?

 

In a related concept, as many of us mention every single time this subject comes up,

 

It's not where you draft…it's how you draft.

 

So again, how many of the last several Super Bowl teams had to "bottom out" in order to get better?

TB, an appraisal of the team is irrelevant. The discussion is:

 

a) Have the Bills "bottomed out?"

b) Is bottoming out necessary for a team to begin improving?

c) Why have so many excellent organizations and recent Super Bowl teams NOT bottomed out?

d) Why have so many perennially sucky organizations who keep bottoming out never improve?

[Cripes]

Haven't the Bills actually followed the "bottoming out" strategy this year that JS would recommend? They did not draft a serious QB prospect or sign Jake Delhomme or Derek Anderson as stopgap starters. They gutted the wide receiver corps behind Lee Evans to a fleet of inexperienced question marks. They didn’t break the bank on any impact free-agent linebackers or linemen. They didn’t replace their leading pass rusher.

 

If the Bills end up winning 6-8 games this year, you can’t say they weren’t not trying.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Cripes