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Week 1 Haiku

dbringer

By dbringer
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The Dean Hall of Famer

The Dean

Posted
Posted

 

Actually, you're wrong...look it up, then come back and apologize.

 

 

He is wrong about the 5 syllables, 7 syllables. 5 syllables. It is actually 5,7,5 moras (which don't always translate precisely to syllables).

 

But he is correct that some of the verses presented in this thread are not Haiku.

The Dean Hall of Famer

The Dean

Posted
Posted

But dean, that's irrelevant because we're not speaking Japanese. The commonly accepted "westernized" haiku is as he described.

 

 

Don't you hate stuff that is commonly accepted, but not correct? I do.

Buffalo Billy Rookie

Buffalo Billy

Posted
Posted

No, I don't hate it. It is correct because it is commonly accepted. Like how new words get accepted into the dictionary. By your logic, it is also technically correct if written in the japanese language.

 

Thus an "incorrect" westernized version is acceptable due to translation and written issues.

The Dean Hall of Famer

The Dean

Posted
Posted

No, I don't hate it. It is correct because it is commonly accepted. Like how new words get accepted into the dictionary. By your logic, it is also technically correct if written in the japanese language.

 

Thus an "incorrect" westernized version is acceptable due to translation and written issues.

 

 

I don't accept that "commonly accepted" equals "correct". Sorry, that's not one you get by me. The average person is a moron.

 

Most of the rest I agree with. And, yes, when I write Haiku in English (which isn't very often...maybe one or two a year during Phin week) I do indeed use the 5-7-5 syllable method. But, the "truth" of the matter is, Haiku is a Japanese art form and syllables don't really apply. A decent definition is here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiku

 

Excerpt:

 

In contrast to English verse typically characterized by meter, Japanese verse counts sound units (moras), known as "on". Traditional haiku consist of 17 on, in three phrases of 5, 7, and 5 on respectively.

 

Although the word "on" is often translated as "syllable", in fact one on is counted for a short syllable, an additional one for an elongated vowel, diphthong, or doubled consonant, and one more for an "n" at the end of a syllable. Thus, the word "haibun", though counted as two syllables in English, is counted as four on in Japanese (ha-i-bu-n). This is illustrated by the Issa haiku below, which contains 17 on but only 15 syllables. In addition, some sounds, such as "kyo" (きょ) can be perceived as two syllables in English but as a single on in Japanese. A word that illustrates both these issues is "Tokyo", which is perceived as having three syllables in English (To-ky-o) but four moras in Japanese (To-o-kyo-o).

 

Furthermore, Haiku in English isn't really even strictly 5-7-5 syllables as noted here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiku_in_English

 

Excerpt:

 

Contemporary haiku are written in many languages, but most poets outside of Japan are concentrated in the English-speaking countries.

 

It is impossible to single out any current style, format, or subject matter as definitive. Some of the more common practices in English include:

 

* Use of three lines of up to 17 syllables;

* Use of a season word (kigo);

* Use of a cut or kire (sometimes indicated by a punctuation mark) to compare two images implicitly.

 

English haiku do not adhere to the strict syllable count found in Japanese haiku,[1] and the typical length of haiku appearing in the main English-language journals is 10–14 syllables.[2][3] Some haiku poets are concerned with their haiku being expressed in one breath[4][5][6] and the extent to which their haiku focus on "showing" as opposed to "telling".[7][8] This is the genius of haiku using an economy of words to paint a multi-tiered painting, without "telling all"

 

One might find fault with some of the Haiku here, which clearly state Miami sucks and will lose, as that pretty much "tells all". But I don't take exception to that.

 

What I was really trying to say, in the post you initially responded to is, there are more variations of Haiku (even English language Haiku) than the 5-7-5 we normally assume. But even assuming that, some here aren't Haiku by ANY definition, as they have far too many moras, syllables, etc. So, really, that was my point.

Chef Jim Hall of Famer

Chef Jim

Posted
Posted

I don't accept that "commonly accepted" equals "correct". Sorry, that's not one you get by me. The average person is a moron.

 

Most of the rest I agree with. And, yes, when I write Haiku in English (which isn't very often...maybe one or two a year during Phin week) I do indeed use the 5-7-5 syllable method. But, the "truth" of the matter is, Haiku is a Japanese art form and syllables don't really apply. A decent definition is here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiku

 

Excerpt:

 

 

 

Furthermore, Haiku in English isn't really even strictly 5-7-5 syllables as noted here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiku_in_English

 

Excerpt:

 

 

 

One might find fault with some of the Haiku here, which clearly state Miami sucks and will lose, as that pretty much "tells all". But I don't take exception to that.

 

What I was really trying to say, in the post you initially responded to is, there are more variations of Haiku (even English language Haiku) than the 5-7-5 we normally assume. But even assuming that, some here aren't Haiku by ANY definition, as they have far too many moras, syllables, etc. So, really, that was my point.

 

:rolleyes:

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