Stadium Wall vs Buffalo News/

[Buffalonian-at-Heart]

Are the sensitive fanatic fans aware that your view corresponds to 95%-98% of the NFL analysts/sportswriters? Your assessment is certainly not outside of the norm, it is simply the norm. The hardcore and stoneheaded fans who are inflating the talent level on this team are the ones far outside the bell curve. Your reporting on the Bills is fair and diplomatically tame.

 

I believe the Bills are going to beat the Phins in the opening game. If that happens the "True Believers" are going to be ready to pounce on the so called "realists". As the season advances and the team's vulnerabilities are exposed the fanatics will become quieter and will steadily fade away.

 

The Bills are a few years away from catching up to the middle of the pack. What is so obvious to me is very outside the realm of believability for a segment of the population who don't realize that they are inhabiting the fringe position. They will soon learn that success is based on the talent level of a team and not on wishful thinking.

 

My responses haven't been about his assessment of the team as a whole, just specifically as we are compared to the Dolphins.

[Delete This Account]

If anyone needed further explanation as to why I stopped posting here, parts of this thread should provide more than enough proof. Disagreeing with a column is fine; everyone's entitled to an opinion. But that doesn't mean I'm obligated to stick around to read personal attacks on someone most of you have never met. Courtesy of a friend, my sig says it all: "People here can't or won't separate the reporter from the person, coverage from character. It's juvenile and gets to be too much."

 

Two notes:

When I gave Mike the link, he was especially amused by the "This writer is a moron and I would guess that he won't last in this town much longer" line, considering he's a Canisius grad who's been working for The News since 1987.

 

As for JW covering the Dolphins, I present the lede from his 2007 gamer:

 

 

One more thing before I go: condolences to the News sports department on the loss of longtime writer and editor Bob Summers, who passed away late Saturday night.

wow, i was pretty harsh on them. then again, i've had good practice spotting some bad football.

you realize though, you'll ruin my reputation with at least one poster. me and my objectivity.

 

jw

 

oh, and welcome back?

[BillsFanInLV]

Good Post Webster guy.

 

I totally agree and also am counting the minutes until our opener.

 

Go Bills!

[Fan in Chicago]

 

oh, and welcome back?

We can only hope.

 

And some unsolicited advice - please dont get drawn into arguments where posters tend to make personal attacks. It is beneath you to do that and serves no real purpose but aggravation and frustration. I felt your opinion about the Bills vs the Dolphins to be fair - the Bills have done little over the past several years to give any hope. I am in a 'show me' mode - I like what I have seen from the current regime but I am not sure if I am being objective or just a fan with rose colored pupils.

[murra]

If anyone needed further explanation as to why I stopped posting here, parts of this thread should provide more than enough proof.

 

...

 

When I gave Mike the link, he was especially amused by the "This writer is a moron and I would guess that he won't last in this town much longer" line, considering he's a Canisius grad who's been working for The News since 1987.

 

 

I don't get it. Why do you feel the need to let us know you told the guy who wrote this article that some message board didn't like it?

 

 

I don't think anyone has any personal hatred for the local media. Jealousy perhaps, but enough with this personal attack business. Your job is to have things read by a mass amount of people. Criticism is in the job description. At no point did any of the posts cross the line of general disagreement for the article, and actual hatred for its author. Some people are going to dislike certain aspects of your profession.

 

Having read books by some journalist legends like Robert Novak, I'm under the impression that in the old days, they would've loved the attention it brought to their work. If I were a sports writer, I'd make it my sole obligation to write a controversial piece in order to spark debate centered on my article. Getting your work noticed has got to be the first priority.

 

So why is it that when a relatively harmless insult is made on a local article, you felt the need to come out of your TBD retirement?

[Delete This Account]

We can only hope.

 

And some unsolicited advice - please dont get drawn into arguments where posters tend to make personal attacks. It is beneath you to do that and serves no real purpose but aggravation and frustration. I felt your opinion about the Bills vs the Dolphins to be fair - the Bills have done little over the past several years to give any hope. I am in a 'show me' mode - I like what I have seen from the current regime but I am not sure if I am being objective or just a fan with rose colored pupils.

i've liked what i've seen, too. and i'm on record on this board in picking the bills to finish 6-10.

note, i've also picked the bills to win this weekend in a certain pool i'm in.

 

jw

[JohnC]

So why is it that when a relatively harmless insult is made on a local article, you felt the need to come out of your TBD retirement?

 

 

When there are personal insults directed toward some of the reporters who are also associates of some of our former participants such as Lori and Graham you are placing them in very untenable and awkward positions. Directing a diatribe against a reporter and then expecting a "fellow" associate such as Lori to comment is out of bounds.

 

There is not a more combative civilian profession than the legal profession. The language of a lawyer can be very hot and excessive. But it is directed at the issue and not the other lawyer. There is a code and an expectation of professionalism. If a lawyer calls another lawyer a jerk or an ass in public that lawyer will be quickly run out of his profession.

 

Reporters will engage on issues related to a topic. They are not going to engage in character assassination. Not just because there is a code against it but for the simple reason that it is not the right thing and classy thing to do.

 

It is a shame that we have lost some very insightful participants such as Lori and JG because because of some reckless behavior. Anonymously writing on a blog does not mean that one shouldn't behave responsibly.

[GG]

I always considered you level headed, you're sounding more and more like another Bills hating writer. Just bashing them at every chance you get whether it makes sense or not. You are awfully disappointing. I actually enjoyed the debate until I read this post. Now you're just being biased no matter the content, and you are proving my entire point to the board. Thumbs down man.

 

This is gold, Jerry. Pure comedy gold.

 

Thanks for a good laugh this morning.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

i don't have any trouble with you, and i'm not referring to you here in this post, but note that i don't provide opinions. i write as objectively as anyone can in pointing out what i see.

 

the trouble i have is when some posters simply trash my colleagues for trashing's sake

 

jw

 

*sigh* John, I admire you and Lori for sticking up for your friends and colleagues

Writing as objectively as I can, I think a point you both are missing is that the original article referred to both generalized and personalized -- lots of references to "you" (plural) in a negative way - not pumped, don't know basic stuff about Miami like coach and QB.

 

It makes for a livelier and more entertaining style of writing, but fans who are pumped and who can probably name 2/3 of the starting MIA lineup and could tell you the coach and QB if woken out of a sound sleep at 3 am understandably take it amiss.

 

So who personalized first? The writer, or the fans on the board?

 

The trashing isn't "for trashing's sake", it's in response to a certain style of journalism, personalized towards the reader and short on facts.

Is there really such a huge gulf between saying "the writer is a moron" and saying "that's a moronic opinion expressed in a factless article" or something like that?

Would you and Lori really like the latter any better? The latter seems to fit the "attack the article, not the writer" criteria Lori expressed. I kinda see it as a distinction without a difference myself.

 

From where I sit, the core issue looks like it's OK w/ you for writers to call out the fans personally (you aren't pumped, you don't know basic info on the so-called rivals) and to really trash the team (irrelevant). But not OK for fans to respond personally (you're a moron). It doesn't sit well with your skin -- understood, sorry you feel that way. As one female Bills fan to another, I was sorry to see Lori go, but really, the only person whose behavior we can control is ourselves. We can try to set a good example, or we can leave, continued meta-discussion of forum behavior strikes me as pointless.

 

Once upon a time, I used to have Buff News mailed to me so I could get decent facts and coverage of my team.

When the News articles degraded to little more depth, substance, or quality than the national press, I stopped.

I look at what's on the web nowadays, but I did vote with my feet (and my cash) on the quality.

[KOKBILLS]

This thread has been some fun reading...I think the discussion is important at this point of The Bills Franchise no matter what side you fall on...

 

I always try to be as fair as I can with folks who write about Football for a living. Once upon a time it's what I wanted to do with my life. So when I see people who actually do make a living writing about NFL Football taking it on the chin a bit, I try to be objective...

 

I admit when it comes to The Bills that is hard at times...I have no doubt that guys like JW, and Tim Graham for that matter do their homework...It's evident when you read their work. Like it or not, their opinions are based on some homework and experience. But that is by no means the norm when you consider what you read and hear around the nation on a daily basis...I think, at times, I have an inner radar about these things...Because when I see guys like Jason La Canfora talk about the Bills, I know almost instantly they really have no clue what is going on in Western NY...They gloss over the the obvious stuff, talk to (well probably text) the same guys who regurgitate the same information ad nauseam, and give a 30 second sound bite on how things are exactly the same in Buffalo despite all the changes they made and who is now in charge...To me much of what I see in the national level media is basically just piling on and not really based on much factual discovery...I realize a guy like La Canfora can still get a good scoop and feel for his hometown Redskins, but the fact that they have him giving opinions on The Bills is a HUGE part of the media backlash you see around here at times...It's a cumulative thing...It festers...The fact that someone out there is predicting that the Bills are the most likely NFL Team to go winless proves there are idiots out there...You just have to look under some rocks to find them at times...At other times they are as plain as day...

 

I think I'm a bit more optimistic about The Bills chances this year than the average Sports Writer...I'll admit it, but not much more optimistic...I think they'll finish between 7-9 and 9-7...I think The Bills are being underrated a little and I definitely think the rest of the AFC East is being a bit overrated...I have a million reasons why I believe this to be true and yes, I definitely believe I have a little more insight than some writers who don't have a vested interest in following this Division...Does that make me dilusional? Most who know me would say so, but that's besides the point...

 

In the end though it is just Football and we should learn to be civil towards one another (that excludes any negative comments towards Fatasaurus Rex, Sanchez, the Jets, the Fish, the Patsies, etc, etc...)...I'll try to work on it on my end...No promises though...

 

Go Bills!!!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

The question, to me, is the amount of homework done. <...>

That said, if these guys are going to know nothing about the team, other than a few players, that they hired Chan Gailey a retread, and didn't address their most glaring weaknesses, and just automatically put down the team knowing nothing about them or saying nothing with any insight as to why they will continue to suck, they are not really doing anything. They are mailing in their evaluation of the rest of the league and just writing for the lowest common denominator. <...>

 

But if a columnist or writer acknowledges the changes in the culture and locker room and coaching and playcalling and yet still comes to the conclusion it was too great a hill to climb in one year and we still may be going through growing pains, that is a very legitimate and realistic stance to take. It's also very easy to separate those types from the know nothing types.

 

So if they do their homework and have good reasons to say we suck, that's cool, and cool with me. It's just a prediction anyway. That's what makes sports great, and dramatic. But if they are just going to say we suck because they know nothing about the team or what they are doing, changing, etc, they should be exposed and denigrated as frauds.

 

Exactly. It's not the conclusions about possible losing record I mind, it's the lack of informed quality behind many of the conclusions, coupled by mindless insults to the team. I mind this on and off the board.

 

There seems to be a mindset that it's just fine to bash the team and the players (both in the media, and on this board) - not just a skill or talent evaluation like "mediocre" or "backup" but really sweeping general language, very negative and insulting -- calling Edwards a female organ and so forth.

 

But not OK to apply any negative language to a poster or a writer?

 

I'm new here, and trying, but I kinda don't get it.

[SwampD]

This is a great thread. I'm just wondering what happened to days when writers used to get drunk and get into bar fights. A little bit of resistance and the writers on this board turn tail and run. Grow a set and fight.

 

JW, I'm just wondering how you saying,"...and they've gone through a carousel of posers and wannabes and busts at that position alone," is different from just saying,"they suck." Or how saying "yahoo" is somehow better than saying "idiot"? I guess your words just sound a little prettier.

[Guest dog14787]

If anyone needed further explanation as to why I stopped posting here, parts of this thread should provide more than enough proof. Disagreeing with a column is fine; everyone's entitled to an opinion. But that doesn't mean I'm obligated to stick around to read personal attacks on someone most of you have never met. Courtesy of a friend, my sig says it all: "People here can't or won't separate the reporter from the person, coverage from character. It's juvenile and gets to be too much."

 

Two notes:

When I gave Mike the link, he was especially amused by the "This writer is a moron and I would guess that he won't last in this town much longer" line, considering he's a Canisius grad who's been working for The News since 1987.

 

As for JW covering the Dolphins, I present the lede from his 2007 gamer:

 

 

One more thing before I go: condolences to the News sports department on the loss of longtime writer and editor Bob Summers, who passed away late Saturday night.

 

 

There are those of us that have a great appreciation for what folks like you, jw or Tim Graham bring to the board and we can't change or control what some of the morons do around here as some folks/trolls try to slowly tear away at our close nit online community.

 

So it boils down to making a choice I suppose, are the trolls and morons really worth abandoning the good posters of this board?

 

Lori you don't strike me as someone who backs down from anything so why give these morons/trolls the satisfaction.

[Guest dog14787]

There are those of us that have a great appreciation for what folks like you, jw or Tim Graham bring to the board and we can't change or control what some of the morons do around here as some folks/trolls try to slowly tear away at our close nit online community.

 

So it boils down to making a choice I suppose, are the trolls and morons really worth abandoning the good posters of this board?

 

Lori you don't strike me as someone who backs down from anything so why give these morons/trolls the satisfaction.

 

Note: I'm not a journalist, but I do post frequently here on TSW. I have been ganged up on, called every name in the book, proved wrong numerous times, yet I still keep coming back for more.

 

Do you want to know why I keep coming back for more? For the good folks like you Lori,

 

 

for the good folks like you...

Edited September 10, 2010 by dog14787

[rockpile]

Is it just me or does anyone else think the local media should be trying to maybe drum up a little hype to help support the team instead of trying to convince people they shouldn't care?

 

 

There was a special on television in Rochester a week or so ago, looking at last season and the one starting Sunday. They took the time to dig up a LOT of positive video highlights from 2009, which could not have been easy. *-)

 

I think the local sports media should be honest, but put a positive light on the team. It is the only major league sports franchise WNY still has. TW cable sports network channel ran the Detroit preseason game several times.

 

I have mostly experienced positive feelings from fans in Rochester, from the casual to the rabid type.

 

I do agree that news should be "fair and balanced" but if the national media is too lazy or perhaps biased to make sure the BIG news stories are reported accurately, I guess we cannot expect sports reporters to be a whole lot better. Writing negative chit is the easy way out. IF you are in the media and are really doing your job well, please relax. THIS POST is not directed at you.

 

That said, I am bring myami logo fabric with me to use to start campfires and grills. I will be passing out scraps Sunday at Hammers!

 

Rock

[timba]

given the number of yahoos showing up on this site, i'm starting to question its relevance. call me cynical, though.

 

jw

 

Just gotta wade through the BS.

 

I don't envy you of the task of being a fan and then writing objectively.

 

At this point, saying that the bills are a playoff team is just as foolish as saying that they are going 1-15. It's difficult to know what to expect, especially when you get a change in regime. However, paying attention to what has changed this offseason vs last year gives the indication that there is change for the better going on. When there are analysts saying that this team will be awful because they didn't draft a QB or T in round 1, I get the feeling that they've been ignoring the happenings since then. I can't blame them as the bills haven't been significant in a decade, but that also means they aren't entirely qualified for providing their analysis.

[Buffalonian-at-Heart]

I'm not sure if some of the innuendos such as moron posters, rose colored fans, are being directed toward me and my posts to JW. I'm also not sure if I'm attached to the type of person that stops someone like Lori from coming to the board. But I do want to respond to clarify my point of view, and hope that If the aforementioned attachment is true, I can offer some perspective.

 

I'd like to start off by saying, I am a good person. I'm a father of two boys, I've been married for 13 years, I'm a God fearing Christian man (that admittedly doesn't act like it all the time), and I've been a devoted Bills fan for as long as one can remember from his childhood. I spend way too much time reading article after article and post after post about a team that has become an important part of the entertainment or hobby side of my life. I've probably spent 10's of thousands of dollars in various ways over the years, with no regrets, it was all apart of the enjoyment.

 

In saying that there's something that writers need to understand, and I hope I can give some perspective. There's something about Bills fans, not that they are unique from other Cities fan bases, but there is a personal attachment to the team by its fans. When a writer, in any forum articulates something dissident about the fan bases team, by definition it's charged. In fact a writer's objective is to invoke emotion. There's no doubt that the writer of the article mentioned in this post was to incite emotional responses. Intentional or unintentional, in this thread John Wawrow's responses to me had the same sediment. If you look closely it's like baiting. I'll admit he won, he poked fun at me and the team I've loved since I was a child and it got the better of me. But let's not just dismiss his participation, and for that matter the writer's involvement when they induce emotion from the fans. As I mentioned, after all it is their intent.

 

I'd also like to respond about another issue. And that's the disrespectful way new posters or you might say lower posting total folks are treated. I assure you for every Lori that stops posting here, there's a hundred new people with less than 200 posts that stop visiting. Please Lori don't take that as I'm referring to you in any way, just using you as a recent example of a veteran mentioning not posting as much.

 

Heck I do it too, you start reading a post and you skim down and begin to read, there's a subconscious thing that occurs. You find yourself dismissing low post totals and start looking for the folks you've come accustom to. Then if someone with low totals even remotely says anything resembling negativity or controversy, you say to yourself "he's gonna get killed for that". But it's somewhat dismissed for the veteran's. They often come to each others defense. So what happens is the low total posters are automatically tagged as stupid, troll, ruining the board, etc. So they leave or worse stop posting. How is that good? Why aren't we more outraged by this issue than we are about veterans threatening to leave.

 

I'll submit one last thought. Just because you have over 1000, 2000, 5000, or 10000 posts doesn't by default make you a smarter or more devoted Bills fan. Nor does it make you a better person. Nor does it give you the right to disrespect the lower post total contributors. It could just mean that you found this site sooner and you post a lot. It's also not alright for writers to treat these folks with utter disrespect. There's little doubt that we've lost hundreds of people that would have otherwise been excellent contributors. If we continue on this road the veterans will have nothing but themselves and the true ignoramus's, because they will drive away the people they've labeled as such. I can say with almost certainty that if you replaced my name with say "The Dean" in my debate with John Wawrow, there would be an entire different tone to his speech. The comfort level that veterans have in disparaging posters not like them is as big of an issue as any other.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Buffalonian-at-Heart

[Kelly the Dog]

The same reason Dez Bryant has to carry Roy Williams' bags in training camp.

[Buffalonian-at-Heart]

The same reason Dez Bryant has to carry Roy Williams' bags in training camp.

 

And that's why Dez refused.

[Guest dog14787]

I'm not sure if some of the innuendos such as moron posters, rose colored fans, are being directed toward me and my posts to JW. I'm also not sure if I'm attached to the type of person that stops someone like Lori from coming to the board. But I do want to respond to clarify my point of view, and hope that If the aforementioned attachment is true, I can offer some perspective.

 

I'd like to start off by saying, I am a good person. I'm a father of two boys, I've been married for 13 years, I'm a God fearing Christian man (that admittedly doesn't act like it all the time), and I've been a devoted Bills fan for as long as one can remember from his childhood. I spend way too much time reading article after article and post after post about a team that has become an important part of the entertainment or hobby side of my life. I've probably spent 10's of thousands of dollars in various ways over the years, with no regrets, it was all apart of the enjoyment.

 

In saying that there's something that writers need to understand, and I hope I can give some perspective. There's something about Bills fans, not that they are unique from other Cities fan bases, but there is a personal attachment to the team by its fans. When a writer, in any forum articulates something dissident about the fan bases team, by definition it's charged. In fact a writer's objective is to invoke emotion. There's no doubt that the writer of the article mentioned in this post was to incite emotional responses. Intentional or unintentional, in this thread John Wawrow's responses to me had the same sediment. If you look closely it's like baiting. I'll admit he won, he poked fun at me and the team I've loved since I was a child and it got the better of me. But let's not just dismiss his participation, and for that matter the writer's involvement when they induce emotion from the fans. As I mentioned, after all it is their intent.

 

I'd also like to respond about another issue. And that's the disrespectful way new posters or you might say lower posting total folks are treated. I assure you for every Lori that stops posting here, there's a hundred new people with less than 200 posts that stop visiting. Please Lori don't take that as I'm referring to you in any way, just using you as a recent example of a veteran mentioning not posting as much.

 

Heck I do it too, you start reading a post and you skim down and begin to read, there's a subconscious thing that occurs. You find yourself dismissing low post totals and start looking for the folks you've come accustom to. Then if someone with low totals even remotely says anything resembling negativity or controversy, you say to yourself "he's gonna get killed for that". But it's somewhat dismissed for the veteran's. They often come to each others defense. So what happens is the low total posters are automatically tagged as stupid, troll, ruining the board, etc. So they leave or worse stop posting. How is that good? Why aren't we more outraged by this issue than we are about veterans threatening to leave.

 

I'll submit one last thought. Just because you have over 1000, 2000, 5000, or 10000 posts doesn't by default make you a smarter or more devoted Bills fan. Nor does it make you a better person. Nor does it give you the right to disrespect the lower post total contributors. It could just mean that you found this site sooner and you post a lot. It's also not alright for writers to treat these folks with utter disrespect. There's little doubt that we've lost hundreds of people that would have otherwise been excellent contributors. If we continue on this road the veterans will have nothing but themselves and the true ignoramus's, because they will drive away the people they've labeled as such. I can say with almost certainty that if you replaced my name with say "The Dean" in my debate with John Wawrow, there would be an entire different tone to his speech. The comfort level that veterans have in disparaging posters not like them is as big of an issue as any other.

 

 

I've said this before and I'll say it again, there's a big difference between Lori, Tim and jw when in comparison to the normal poster. These guys are all journalist with reputations to uphold.Lori Chase, Tim Graham or John wawrow do not hide behind an avatar like most of us here on TSW.When they write something, they have to take it home with them and live with it. Are these guys always going write what we want to read,no,of course not, but they make a living putting things in the proper perspective,not telling us what we want to hear. Not If your any good at your job anyway.

 

So for anyone who thinks they can put themselves in Lori's shoes as she watches close friends of hers like Tim Graham and jw get disrespected on this forum,( meanwhile we're asking her to moderate objectively) I'm here to tell you right now that you can't,and as I'm trying to talk Lori into coming back to TSW where she belongs, I also understand where she's coming from.

Edited September 10, 2010 by dog14787