Tom Modrak

[Ghost of Rob Johnson]

I really don't know why it even needs to be said, but every pick, by every team, in every round, in every year, in every sport, especially pro football, is an argument/choice in the war room over BPA versus BP in position of need. Every team makes both choices at certain times in every draft.

But if the choice is not his, and he is merely ranking the players, how can he be held accountable for someone else reaching for need on his board.

[Red]

Sorry, wrong on 2 counts. Williams was taken in the 2006 draft, and Wright was taken in 2007. Also, it was rumored that ralph was responsible for the Wright pick, not Modrak.

 

Anyone that is claiming Modrak is responsible for the draft misses, because he's the director of college scouting, obviously has never had a boss completely ignore their recommendations and do whatever they want.

 

Well, then why keep him?

 

If his opinions are worthless, and Ralph/ Jauron/ Donahoe/ Levy are going to do there own thing anyway, what exactly is his value to the franchise?

 

And again, where is this "brain trust" getting their information on players from, anyways?

 

To answer your second point, anyone claiming that the coaches and owner can sit back, have free time to scout college football AND run a professional franchise, obviously don't understand that is why you hire scouts and a director of scouting in the first place.

[JohnC]

ah, yes. another go at the Ralph is Cheap/Bad Owner post. well-covered ground. this thread is about Modrak, and i've made my points, but you intend to take it to another level. fine.

 

Whether Ralph is cheap or not is not part of the discussion, at least not for me. My point about him is very simple: He is incompetent in regards to running a competitive organization. Make no mistake, he still is a terrific businessman who knows how to squeeze the product.

 

the turnover of staff does have something to do with accountability, and yet you fail to see both sides of the equation while making these sweeping generalizations.

 

The owner fired Polian. Who is now doing very well with another franchise. The owner fired Butler/A.J. Smith. Smith is doing very well with another franchise. The owner hired Levy. No need to elaborate on his legacy as a fraudulent GM. The owner replaced him with a marketing man. The turnover in staff has a lot to do with the inadequacies of the owner's own hires.

 

there have been mis-steps, many of them, along the way, and Mr. Wilson is not blame-less.

as i've noted on numerous occasions, people have been put in positions with the freedom to do their jobs. i'm specifically referring to Tom Donahoe, Russ Brandon, Jim Overdorf and Dick Jauron. they were given wide-ranging freedom to build this team in the ways they saw fit. in many ways, they are due much of the credit/blame for what's gone on.

 

Again, I will repeat a prior point: The hires who have faltered were his hires or stemmed from his hires. How long has Jim Overdorf been associated with the franchise? I don't know for sure but isn't he still involved with the franchise?

 

but you're beginning to argue my point that Tom Modrak, though not blameless, isn't the one at fault. after all, weren't you the one originally emphasizing this point before going off on this new tangent of blaming Mr. Wilson. you can't have it both ways, can you?

 

Of course I can have it both ways. The owner is certainly not the most astute owner in the league. Just look at his team's record. With respect to Tom Modrak I still strongly contend that his body of work is mediocre. Just look at the cumulative drafting record for the past decade. If you are impressed with his general performance then you and I have different standards.

 

To say that he is not solely at fault in the team's below average drafting record under his tenure as the primary scout is a non-illuminating comment. No one person in any NFL organization is solely responsible, with the exception of peculiar Al Davis in Oakland who more than anyone fits that description.

 

My position on Tom Modrak is that his body of work over the past decade is less than stellar. I have not argued that he is always making the draft picks. I realize that. What I have stated that as a talent scout his scouting and ranking of college players is average or less compared to the other primary scouts in the more successful franchises in the league. If you want to dispute that then go ahead.

 

in fact, there appears to be a growing consensus that maybe, just maybe, the Bills might be turning a positive corner with Buddy Nix and Chan Gailey in charge. that, of course, remains to be seen. however, if that's the case, who then gets credit for making that decision: the fans, who wanted Cowher or Shanahan?

 

I am supportive of the Nix hire. I do like the hire of Gailey as the HC and even more of the Whaley hire. You can go back and see that I have supported the hire from the start. He certainly is a better hire than the congenial and clueless Levy. Wasn't it refreshing that the owner exhibited some common sense and hired someone with experience in scouting instead of marketing to head the football operation?

 

just wondering, because your scattershot approach is proving to be a little off target, eh?

 

jw

 

There is nothing scattershot about me hitting the obvious target. The Clippers are what they are because they are owned by Donald Sterling. The Raiders are what they are because they are owned by Al Davis. The Pittsburgh Pirates are what they are because of their current owner. The Bills are what they are because Ralph Wilson is the owner.

[Nanker]

Your banal attempts at sarcasm fall far short of the mark.

 

I notice that your referenced players from the years 2001-2006 are a bit, shall we say, light? In fact, we drafted close to 50 players, and we can only keep 1 or 2. Out of 50? I don't think it would take Mel Kiper that this is horrible drafting.

 

 

It was YOUR but-munch criteria of the first and second rounders that are still in the league after the last 10 years that I used.

Do your own friggin' research if you want to get into the other rounds.

You're an azzhat to believe that Modrak alone is alone responsible for picking all the draftees since he got here.

An Azzhat.

[Red]

 

 

There is nothing scattershot about me hitting the obvious target. The Clippers are what they are because they are owned by Donald Sterling. The Raiders are what they are because they are owned by Al Davis. The Pittsburgh Pirates are what they are because of their current owner. The Bills are what they are because Ralph Wilson is the owner.

 

 

I will add another to your list.

 

The late Hugh Culverhouse- old owner of the Tampa Bay Bucs.

 

When he was the owner- back in the old Orange and White days- they were the worst team in the league for decades. He traded Steve DeBerg, Steve Young, etc.

 

As soon as he passed away, and new ownership came in, the Bucs turned themselves around to a Super Bowl win.

 

The timing of the decades of failure with Culverhouse as the owner, and after his demise and the change in ownership and the subsequent success is amazing.

 

I'm not wishing anything bad on Ralph, but an owner can certainly hamper the progress of an organization.

 

It was YOUR but-munch criteria of the first and second rounders that are still in the league after the last 10 years that I used.

Do your own friggin' research if you want to get into the other rounds.

You're an azzhat to believe that Modrak alone is alone responsible for picking all the draftees since he got here.

An Azzhat.

 

Wow.

 

That was quick.

 

One response is your limit to intelligent conversation?

 

And I'm the azzhat?

[Thoner7]

i don't hear people complaining about Wood, Levitre and Byrd from last season.

Troup looks like he can play, too.

and then there's this other guy, Spiller, is it?

 

yes, Tom's missed some. but are those his misses alone? in fact, based on some of the players he recommended, and the Bills passed on, it's a question that has some validity. i personally do not think -- and in fact might even know -- that the Maybin and Losman picks were on Tom.and to be fair, it's apparent that Spiller was a consensus pick that included the entire front office, from Chan on up to Mr. Wilson.

 

jw

 

that is not suprising, I still cannot imagine anyone with a clue would have touched Maybin in the first three rounds.

 

Any idea on who Modrak really liked/who did give the final go ahead for Maybin?

[Red]

It was YOUR but-munch criteria of the first and second rounders that are still in the league after the last 10 years that I used.

Do your own friggin' research if you want to get into the other rounds.

You're an azzhat to believe that Modrak alone is alone responsible for picking all the draftees since he got here.

An Azzhat.

 

Oh, and 'but' is spelled with 2 t's...as in 'butt'.

[Nanker]

Oh, and 'but' is spelled with 2 t's...as in 'butt'.

 

When you're old enough to drink, you'll understand typos.

Bet you're just unhappy that school is back in session this week.

Don't worry, 8th grade isn't impossible to get through.

[Red]

When you're old enough to drink, you'll understand typos.

Bet you're just unhappy that school is back in session this week.

Don't worry, 8th grade isn't impossible to get through.

 

And being 'old enough to drink', proves what, exactly? Marshawn is old enough to drink....

 

Man, you sure are a cantankerous one.

 

Why must you devolve into insults and sarcasm when I am simply trying to counter the points you mentioned? I noticed how you have no response to the players that you mentioned that I responded to.

 

Are you really this tightly wound? When you fart, do only dogs hear the whistle?

 

C'mon man, lighten up! Nobody on this board knows anything, and if we did, we wouldn't be coming to this board to post.

 

I mentioned some Bills players that we have drafted that you had countered my original post with. Can you stick to football, and have an intelligent, opinionated conversation?

[Delete This Account]

Mr. Wawrow,

 

Truly, you doth jest.

 

'Tom's missed some'???!??!?

 

When did Modrak take over as Director of Scouting? 2001?

 

Go back and look at all of the players drafted from 2001-2010. How many are still with the team? Still in the league? Pro Bowlers?

 

Go back and look at all of the Top 3 rounds we have drafted in. How many panned out this decade? How many are still with the team? Ever started? Still in the league?

 

Bottom line: if the offense stinks, everyone wants the head of the QB. If the team stinks, everyone wants the coaches head. If the drafts have stunk to high heaven since Modrak came on board (with Donahoe and Guy, who have since both thankfully departed, nonetheless), then why should not the DIRECTOR of college scouting be gone too?

 

And to counter your good draft picks: Troup, Spiller, Wood, Levitre, and Bryd can all be indicative of Nix, since they have all been drafted since he arrived at OBD.

 

And I'm growing tired of this 'war room' decision argument. Regardless of who makes the call or who the "consensus" is, the coaches, owner, management, etc all have to get the information from somebody. That somebody is Modrak; or scouts employed- and thus supported by Modrak.

 

Those players drafted in the later rounds in the earlier part of the decade should be atleast solid players on the CURRENT roster. There should be atleast a core of players to build around.

 

Modrak, if not in title alone, has missed more than hit during his tenure at OBD,...er...Jacksonville. He's a Donahoe guy who keeps getting a check despite an abysmal record this decade. He should have been on the 1st train out w/Donahoe. Or atleast w/Guy.

oh gawd, cry me a river. you absolutely contradict yourself here by making two counter-intuitive arguments by questioning Modrak for picks made before Buddy Nix and then hailing Buddy Nix without giving due credit to Modrak.

and i'm not going to go through every pick. it's already been documented here that you're way off target. actually, that might be libelous to targets. you're not even in the same ballpark.

 

and what's all this blubber about "those players drafted in the later rounds" should at least be part of the current roster ... four undrafted free agents actually made the freakin' team. who suggested them? Moses? oh, right, those were Buddy's guys.

bulloney you. what's interesting is your criticisms toward Tom when some might actually fault John Butler's last draft as being a huge miss. ... but why bring perspective into all this when you're on some roll.

for crying out loud, where do these people come from? and some, here question me using mostly lower case letters. it's BETTER than SHOUTING to PROVE a POINT, isn't it?

 

jw

 

Whether Ralph is cheap or not is not part of the discussion, at least not for me. My point about him is very simple: He is incompetent in regards to running a competitive organization. Make no mistake, he still is a terrific businessman who knows how to squeeze the product.

 

 

 

The owner fired Polian. Who is now doing very well with another franchise. The owner fired Butler/A.J. Smith. Smith is doing very well with another franchise. The owner hired Levy. No need to elaborate on his legacy as a fraudulent GM. The owner replaced him with a marketing man. The turnover in staff has a lot to do with the inadequacies of the owner's own hires.

 

 

 

Again, I will repeat a prior point: The hires who have faltered were his hires or stemmed from his hires. How long has Jim Overdorf been associated with the franchise? I don't know for sure but isn't he still involved with the franchise?

 

 

 

Of course I can have it both ways. The owner is certainly not the most astute owner in the league. Just look at his team's record. With respect to Tom Modrak I still strongly contend that his body of work is mediocre. Just look at the cumulative drafting record for the past decade. If you are impressed with his general performance then you and I have different standards.

 

To say that he is not solely at fault in the team's below average drafting record under his tenure as the primary scout is a non-illuminating comment. No one person in any NFL organization is solely responsible, with the exception of peculiar Al Davis in Oakland who more than anyone fits that description.

 

My position on Tom Modrak is that his body of work over the past decade is less than stellar. I have not argued that he is always making the draft picks. I realize that. What I have stated that as a talent scout his scouting and ranking of college players is average or less compared to the other primary scouts in the more successful franchises in the league. If you want to dispute that then go ahead.

 

 

 

I am supportive of the Nix hire. I do like the hire of Gailey as the HC and even more of the Whaley hire. You can go back and see that I have supported the hire from the start. He certainly is a better hire than the congenial and clueless Levy. Wasn't it refreshing that the owner exhibited some common sense and hired someone with experience in scouting instead of marketing to head the football operation?

 

 

 

There is nothing scattershot about me hitting the obvious target. The Clippers are what they are because they are owned by Donald Sterling. The Raiders are what they are because they are owned by Al Davis. The Pittsburgh Pirates are what they are because of their current owner. The Bills are what they are because Ralph Wilson is the owner.

but it's Tom Modrak's fault, right? ... i just got to the last line, and ignored the rest. come back with some crib notes, it's getting late.

 

jw

 

And being 'old enough to drink', proves what, exactly? Marshawn is old enough to drink....

 

Man, you sure are a cantankerous one.

 

Why must you devolve into insults and sarcasm when I am simply trying to counter the points you mentioned? I noticed how you have no response to the players that you mentioned that I responded to.

 

Are you really this tightly wound? When you fart, do only dogs hear the whistle?

 

C'mon man, lighten up! Nobody on this board knows anything, and if we did, we wouldn't be coming to this board to post.

 

I mentioned some Bills players that we have drafted that you had countered my original post with. Can you stick to football, and have an intelligent, opinionated conversation?

speaking of tightly wound ... what is it, a full moon out tonight? last call for the kindygartners before class starts?

fart references?

 

sheesh. i'm with nanker.

 

jw

[notwoz]

and some, here question me using mostly lower case letters. it's BETTER than SHOUTING to PROVE a POINT, isn't it?

 

jw

John, I'm sorry, could you type a little louder? I couldn't hear you!

[Lurker]

what is it, a full moon out tonight?

Tonight??

 

It's lunar-cy every night around here...

[JESSEFEFFER]

The question has been asked often, How could Tom Modrak still have a job with the Bills? Given some of the poor draft outcomes it is a legitimate question. Given that we rarely have insight into what the information was that was provided, how it was used and by whom, it is plausible to think that he remains because his draft boards have been better than the ultimate decisions that were made. In evaluating the quality of his work, there would be a HUGE data set. Hundreds of draft eligible players every year for multiple years.

 

We have some anecdotal information that suggests that there have often been picks made that deviated from their draft board which have ended poorly. As an organization they are in the perfect position to analyze this. They know the boards as they were set and they know how the information was used and by whom. Tom is still there while many of the other decision makers are gone. To me that makes it easier to believe those anecdotal, draft room stories.

[Ghost of Rob Johnson]

that is not suprising, I still cannot imagine anyone with a clue would have touched Maybin in the first three rounds.

 

Any idea on who Modrak really liked/who did give the final go ahead for Maybin?

According to Allen Wilson it was AFC defensive rookie of the year Brian Cushing. Take the good with the bad as he is now suspended for 4 games.

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/105448-from-allen-wilsons-chat-today/page__pid__1708763__mode__threaded

[Bill from NYC]

i personally do not think -- and in fact might even know -- that the Maybin and Losman picks were on Tom.

 

jw

 

I suspect that, in order to keep relationships with the front office, that you are not free to divulge very much about these matters and I totally respect this.

 

What I would love to know (if possible), who on Earth pulled the trigger on Whitner? I am guessing Marv.

[Gabe Northern]

For all the draft misses he has had I have to give the guy credit for something: Undrafted free agents. He has a knack for finding these under the radar guys that become impact players.

 

The late round finds are the work of field scouts.

 

Modrak's focus is on preparing the briefs on the top 100. You know, where we tend to screw up.

[Rico]

Just exactly how much blame for the putrid drafting record that can be attributed to Modrak is uncertain... but I think one would have to be extremely naive to not hold him accountable at all. I think the only reason he still has a job is thanks to his buddy Buddy... and much like TD, I don't think he would find a high profile job somewhere else if he left, thanks to the bottom line results.

[Delete This Account]

I suspect that, in order to keep relationships with the front office, that you are not free to divulge very much about these matters and I totally respect this.

 

What I would love to know (if possible), who on Earth pulled the trigger on Whitner? I am guessing Marv.

what I do know is that the Bills were hot on picking a strong safety at that point, which leads me to believe that was a Jauron move, him being a defensive guy. Levy was brought in as a consensus-builder. i'm sure he had some input, not sure how much.

 

jw

[bowery4]

what I do know is that the Bills were hot on picking a strong safety at that point, which leads me to believe that was a Jauron move, him being a defensive guy. Levy was brought in as a consensus-builder. i'm sure he had some input, not sure how much.

 

jw

 

Dick's footprint is all over the drafts with Levi if you ask me, it was almost like he was defacto GM/headcoach who had to take some input from above. Maybin come on, pure Jaruon pick (with PF's urging no doubt) But we do have a strong secondary (if they adjust to the 3/4, 4/3 hybrids).

Edited September 7, 2010 by bowery4

[Bill from NYC]

what I do know is that the Bills were hot on picking a strong safety at that point, which leads me to believe that was a Jauron move, him being a defensive guy. Levy was brought in as a consensus-builder. i'm sure he had some input, not sure how much.

 

jw

 

Thanks John. The selections of Whitner and McKelvin continue to amaze me. I think that the major focus of Levy/Jauron was defensive backs and special teams. I always thought that Levy brought Jauron because aside from being Ivy League/Chicago buddies, they shared the same, bad football philosophy. Levy even made statements last year to the effect that special teams were what was wrong with the Bills last season.

 

My guess is that at that particular point in time, Ralph took a step back because he trusted Marv, which was a huge mistake.

 

Was it TD who wanted Losman? This was another hard pick to understand because they gave up a ton to trade up. Or was this Ralph?