Farewell to all, you guys are great fans.... I mean that!

[BLZFAN4LIFE]

This thread serves as a GREAT honey pot. Now, with all the posts carefully marked to review we can start evaluating who should be fitted for the proverbial TBD cement shoes. Well done Die Hard! It saved us a ton of time.

 

I think a lot of people are giving far too much credence to an anonymous poster who joined two years ago and now is claiming, without proof, to be a former Bill. Not only is he a former NFL'er but he has to start a thread to announce that he's leaving a week and a half before the season opener because ...

No player or former player is interested reading garbage about why a player should be waived or why he is overpaid.

and

We all have emotions and nobody enjoys bashing!

- Does D.H. 1967 Avoid sports talk radio, ESPN, and the local newspaper as well? The criticism (and adulation) comes with the territory. These guys are payed millions to play a game in a very public arena and praise as well as criticism are to be expected when they are deserved.

 

Sure the board would be a better place if people acted as if they were in a living room with the person they were replying to. However, it has to be understood that true fans of this team have suffered more than any other team in the league over the past decade and those frustrations are bound to surface. Hopefully this team is on the right track and we can once again enjoy exciting Sunday's and meaningful games in December.

 

I do however, think that one should be able to question the claims and integrity of this particular poster.

[bbb]

The first game I ever went to, was the first game played at Rich Stadium, in beautiful Orchard Park, NY. It was the Redskins, over the Bills, in the pre-season opener. I was 7. I was bummed that OJ Simpson didn't play, but I was even more bummed, my first sports hero, Dennis Shaw wouldn't be playing...hell, he wasn't even on the team anymore. I shared the name Dennis, with Shaw, so I related. I will always remember those teams very fondly, bad as they were. Time to pull out the Bills 1972 video yearbook.... see you Die Hard. Thanks for coming around. I understand. I think Two Bills Drive is still an excellent fan site, but, I agree, it has lost some lustre the last year or two... I think it is just the result of frustrated, but generally great, fans. I go to a number of pro sports team web sites, and message boards, and, to me, this one is far and away the best. Even now....

 

Actually, if you started your fandom in 1973, those were very good days compared to 67-72. Three straight 9-5 seasons, I believe, although 75 may have been 8-6 after the ripoff Pat Toomay game....73 was the 2003 OJ season, too. 75 they started 4-0 and looked Super Bowl bound until that Giants MNF game.

 

BTW, my father taught with Dennis Shaw's wife when he played for the Bills. That was very cool.

[BuffaloBill]

Decided to check out some of Die Hard's old posts to look for clues and found this one:

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/95097-the-last-straw/page__p__1538538__fromsearch__1

 

Says in 2009 he was a season ticket holder for 42 years (2009 - 42 = 1967). Does he count his playing days as being a season ticket holder? Interesting.

 

 

A player can buy tickets.

[ChasBB]

A player can buy tickets.

cåblelady also pointed out that players get season tickets, so could still be a true story. But, as others have pointed out, it doesn't really make a difference one way or the other. It's been fun sleuthing, though.

[NoSaint]

Don't blame you one bit, man, but leaving isn't a solution. Just MO.

 

I didn't read the whole thread but this post struck me... I apologize if discussed, but why should he solve the problem? He's not committed to the board, its not somewhere he has to be.... If he's not happy here, why not spend time with friends and family instead?

 

Whenever people leave theres a sense that - even in subtle undertones - they never tried hard enough, or didn't have thick enough skin.... Coming to talk to fellow fans, and people you hope to be friends with should be just that - friendly. I know I'm not here to WORK on relationships. I think we all have enough of that in our lives. Why put up with something here? Why spend time trying to change anonymous posters? I'm here to enjoy a shared interest, and some people just don't enjoy the blind aggression... Especially when directed at them.

 

From the short amount I read in this thread, there hasn't been a harsh tone like Tim Graham but I thought this was an interesting post none the less.

Edited September 2, 2010 by NoSaint

[wardigital]

You can find most of them online here.

I checked one of them earlier and the only person on the all-time roster that fit those exact dates was Dick Cunningham. Our DIE HARD friend may or may not be him. It could be that he included or subtracted a year that he played where he was traded or hurt or retired or for whatever reason wasn't on the active roster that year so he may not have been included in the guide.

 

I've gone through on Pro-Football-Reference player-by-player, and not a single player fits the criteria that we know about DIE HARD if everything he has stated is true. We know from him that he played for them from 1967-72, and from another poster who re-posted a link that DIE HARD claims to have been a "Season ticket holder" since '67. It is easy to consider that he thought of himself as a "season ticket holder" from 67-72 while playing for the team, but that would basically mean that was the end of his playing days. This means we can reasonably deduce that 1972 was his last season, as it would be highly unlikely for him to own season tickets to the Bills while playing for another team. Dick Cunningham is the only one who is particularly close to these parameters, except that he played for two more teams in 1973.

 

There are a few other players who had a couple of extra years after '72 with other clubs, but the farther we get down that road, the less plausible it is that DIE HARD was a season ticket holder all that time or an actual player.

 

Now it's possible that he didn't have season tickets in '73 and then got them in 74, and just decided for the sake of convenience to close the gap when writing his post, but I don't know exactly how possible.

 

I think it's probably the most likely that he is a former player who once-upon-a-time told a bit of a fib (or was mistaken) as to how long he's had season tickets. It's also possible that he isn't actually a former player and just used that for dramatic impact when making his very excellent points about board civility.

 

I think it'd be less fun if he just came out and said who he was. Investigating this stuff is a hoot.

[Thurman#1]

Diehard,

 

How about saying the Bills should lose for a draft-pick? How would people that have been training their whole life to win everything they can take being told to put it in the tank so they can draft some kid, right out of college, that will walk in and earn substantially more money than they may ever see in their career?

 

I could care less if players and/or coaches read the boards. I am fairly sure ol'nevergiveup was here to see what people were saying about him, and got sucked in a little bit.

 

 

 

Plenty of people, me included, think it would be better if the Bills lost more games in bad years, this coming one included.

 

Virtually nobody has said that any Bills should tank. And yet the constant attacks on all these people who are telling players to "put it in the tank" continue, even though there's nothing there to attack. Nothing.

[12Kachy]

I still say Trent Edwards is over-payed and under-talented.

 

What??? This is exactly what this guy is talking about. TE is getting paid crap. A guy who runs out of his own end zone is getting paid 3 times a much. TE is going to be fine. We have a coach who is not waiting to get the players he wants, he playing with the players he has and going to do a hell of a job. I think TE has a shot at MVP this year. All the great Offense minds in the game said or have said he is solid. I guy who coached Montana and Young said he was good. He has a crappy o-line thats getting better and a good play book this year. He is finally not going out with the High School h back playbook. He'll be fine and I hope the bills make the playoffs.

[Thurman#1]

Really ... why not take what the man says at face value ... if he says he played for the Bills, that's fine with me. It's not worth the effort to try to research, it's not worth the time to even say BS ... he said he played for the Bills that's good enough for me. I'm sure he understands that being an ex-Bill doesn't give him special privledges on TBD, if he was looking for "special treatment" he would have declared himself a Bills player on his first post ... and IMHO ... we then should have afforded him some type of "professional curtesy" by being a little circumspect with our opinions tword him and his team mates.

 

This string has started me thinking ...

 

what if a few players and/or coaches signed in, identified themselves and said they we would like to participate in the boards discussions about football and the team but we had to understand they did not want to hear trash talking, and there were some questions that they wouldn't address such as injury status, future game plans, trade/draft plans etc.

Could we be adult enough to not spoil the relationship?

 

 

 

It didn't work with Tim Graham. Why would it work with a Bill?

 

Somebody will always come along and spoil it. That's the internet these days.

 

It's really sad to see Tim G., Lori and now a former Bill, DieHard, go. And yet, that's the direction things are going. I can understand why they didn't stay.

[Zulu Cthulhu]

Perhaps Die Hard went on Broadway after his playing days, for that quite the theatrical exit.

 

Godspeed

[cage]

I've gone through on Pro-Football-Reference player-by-player, and not a single player fits the criteria that we know about DIE HARD if everything he has stated is true. We know from him that he played for them from 1967-72, and from another poster who re-posted a link that DIE HARD claims to have been a "Season ticket holder" since '67. It is easy to consider that he thought of himself as a "season ticket holder" from 67-72 while playing for the team, but that would basically mean that was the end of his playing days. This means we can reasonably deduce that 1972 was his last season, as it would be highly unlikely for him to own season tickets to the Bills while playing for another team. Dick Cunningham is the only one who is particularly close to these parameters, except that he played for two more teams in 1973.

 

There are a few other players who had a couple of extra years after '72 with other clubs, but the farther we get down that road, the less plausible it is that DIE HARD was a season ticket holder all that time or an actual player.

 

Now it's possible that he didn't have season tickets in '73 and then got them in 74, and just decided for the sake of convenience to close the gap when writing his post, but I don't know exactly how possible.

 

I think it's probably the most likely that he is a former player who once-upon-a-time told a bit of a fib (or was mistaken) as to how long he's had season tickets. It's also possible that he isn't actually a former player and just used that for dramatic impact when making his very excellent points about board civility.

 

I think it'd be less fun if he just came out and said who he was. Investigating this stuff is a hoot.

 

I don't know how he can leave,... this community is too much fun. I love the lengths that people will go to in order to make their points!!

[Chandler#81]

The first game I ever went to, was the first game played at Rich Stadium, in beautiful Orchard Park, NY. It was the Redskins, over the Bills, in the pre-season opener. I was 7. I was bummed that OJ Simpson didn't play, but I was even more bummed, my first sports hero, Dennis Shaw wouldn't be playing...hell, he wasn't even on the team anymore. I shared the name Dennis, with Shaw, so I related. I will always remember those teams very fondly, bad as they were. Time to pull out the Bills 1972 video yearbook.... see you Die Hard. Thanks for coming around. I understand. I think Two Bills Drive is still an excellent fan site, but, I agree, it has lost some lustre the last year or two... I think it is just the result of frustrated, but generally great, fans. I go to a number of pro sports team web sites, and message boards, and, to me, this one is far and away the best. Even now....

 

 

Gotta call you out -a bit- on this one, Dennis. Shaw was on the '73 team, tough some rookie from Arkansas started the season in NE.. He was a favorite of mine for a couple years there too. ROY and made a receiving star out of Marlin the Magician -reportedly during Die Hard's tenure. I, too, witnessed Herb Mul-key tear our hearts out for the FIRST TIME at the Stadium opener. Remember the traffic that evening??

 

Great post. YOU better not go anywhere. I'll hunt you down!

[macaroni]

It didn't work with Tim Graham. Why would it work with a Bill?

 

Somebody will always come along and spoil it. That's the internet these days.

 

It's really sad to see Tim G., Lori and now a former Bill, DieHard, go. And yet, that's the direction things are going. I can understand why they didn't stay.

 

I guess that is the point of my question, I threw it out there so some of us could maybe reflect on our motives and what exactly we are looking for in a "fan site". Even though I've been a fan for longer than some of the posters have been alive, I've learned quite a bit about the Bills and football in general from some of you people.

 

My vision of the perfect "fan site" is where people discuss pros and cons, debate possibilities, predict & debate outcomes of seasons/games/drfts, and teach & support each other in this crazy thing we call being a Bills fan. I'm not so nieave as to think no one could post something that would or could offend some other poster .... I've said things in posts that I've regreted, some mostly unintentional, and THAT MISCOMMUNICATION IMHO in the nature of the internet.

 

Unfortunatly, some of us have a vision of the perfect "fan site" as one where you can rely on the cloak anonymity to play the "big bad guy" and pi$$ on someone elses thoughts or opinions with the misguided philosophy that because the internet allows one to be an a$$hat that they should be an a$$hat.

[KRC]

ROY and made a receiving star out of Marlin the Magician -reportedly during Die Hard's tenure.

 

Yup. The 1970 season was Briscoe's best as a Bill, with Shaw as the primary QB. A 1,000-yard season and a trip to the Pro Bowl and a few first-team all-conference nods. I just talked to Briscoe a few weeks ago. Great guy.

[metzelaars_lives]

This is not a knock against the board, actually its the opposite.....wonderful place to hang out.

 

I am going to tell you a little secret but this will change your attitude about your threads and comments!

 

Are you ready?

 

I played for the Buffalo Bills 1967-1972. I read your comments and I now understand the fans better. Just a little warning here!

 

The players do frequent the message boards, and they do care what you write and yes I personally know 1 former player that posts here!!! Yep, it is true! If you investigate, you could easily figure it out! I did ! I PMed the guy and we now chat from time to time!

 

So why leave the board now? No player or former player is interested reading garbage about why a player should be waived or why he is overpaid.These are proud, proud former star college football players. The career is short, the physical burden is high and the players are just people. We all have emotions and nobody enjoys bashing! The Buffalo fans are the best but by far the most frustrated.

 

I will stop by from time to time and read some topics but my responding days are over.

 

Oh, and my prediction for 2010?

 

Some of you place to much importance in high skill players. The "team" will determine the final outcome.

 

Buffalo is better then most of you think and a playoff birth is not impossible!

 

I thought about placing my real name here, but most likely someone will say I sucked or I was just a good solid player.

 

Either way I will not be happy because football was my LIFE and still is!

 

So I ask the question and this is a good one.....

 

IF YOU WERE A FORMER PLAYER,WOULD YOU PLACE YOUR REAL NAME ON THIS BOARD? If you think about it very carefully, the answer is no way! Some will call this thread a hoax but that should be expected from fans in today's world! Everything is a hoax and everybody is a fraud, not always true guys! Some people are honest and until proven otherwise, learn to trust people!

 

Good luck on your threads, the season, and GO BILLS!!!

 

 

-DIEHARD 1967

 

If you really did play for the Bills, then I can tell you that I met Ernie Warlick at the Minneapolis/St. Paul airport flying back to Buffalo two months ago and he was such a class act, I can't even put it into words. I realize he's a few years before your time, but if you really played for the Bills and live in Buffalo, I'm sure you guys have crossed paths. I'm only 31 and when I got back into town and asked my Dad if he knew about him, he basically got pissed at me and condescendingly said, "of course," as if he was disappointed I didn't know about him. I've since seen him interviewed on the AFL special on HBO and now realize what a great player he was in addition to being a great man. And by the way, no offense, but you're coming off a little like you think you're batman or something. One thing about people on this board is that they pay deference to their elders and respect the old school squads. The only people immature enough to say you suck are the young punks who surely wouldn't remember you anyway. Why don't you just take off that mask?

[Original Byrd Man]

I've gone through on Pro-Football-Reference player-by-player, and not a single player fits the criteria that we know about DIE HARD if everything he has stated is true. We know from him that he played for them from 1967-72, and from another poster who re-posted a link that DIE HARD claims to have been a "Season ticket holder" since '67. It is easy to consider that he thought of himself as a "season ticket holder" from 67-72 while playing for the team, but that would basically mean that was the end of his playing days. This means we can reasonably deduce that 1972 was his last season, as it would be highly unlikely for him to own season tickets to the Bills while playing for another team. Dick Cunningham is the only one who is particularly close to these parameters, except that he played for two more teams in 1973.

 

There are a few other players who had a couple of extra years after '72 with other clubs, but the farther we get down that road, the less plausible it is that DIE HARD was a season ticket holder all that time or an actual player.

 

Now it's possible that he didn't have season tickets in '73 and then got them in 74, and just decided for the sake of convenience to close the gap when writing his post, but I don't know exactly how possible.

 

I think it's probably the most likely that he is a former player who once-upon-a-time told a bit of a fib (or was mistaken) as to how long he's had season tickets. It's also possible that he isn't actually a former player and just used that for dramatic impact when making his very excellent points about board civility.

 

I think it'd be less fun if he just came out and said who he was. Investigating this stuff is a hoot.

It would not be unreasonable to believe he bought tickets for himself and his family. It's also possible he planned to return to Buffalo, after his career ended, so why give up the seats.? He only played one more year, and tickets back then were not that expensive. As someone else posted it has been fun doing the research. I was shocked to discover that Paul Costa averaged over 16.0 per catch over his career and over 19 as a rookie. Pretty impressive for a tight end in todays world!

[Captain Caveman]

I guess he didn't like being booed.

[The Tomcat]

I think that fact the Bills haven't been good for so long is starting to wear on people and our good people are leaving because the Bills are easy targets for the "lowest" of the "fans"

 

 

I hope you stay...take a hiatus but come back Shane...COME BACK!

[JasoninMT]

Former Player or not... Sad to see people leave. I'm not a former player and I don't spend nearly the time I used to spend here since the board has "evolved" into something else. There are still a core of good people here, but the amount of crap which is posted anymore doesn't make it worth my time to read. I'm a fan, nothing more. I like to think I'm an "educated" fan, but the truth is I never played the game at any level and couldn't begin to break down an offense or a defense. Reading about why XXX sucks or how we got screwed by YYY or how could Ralph not pay blah, blah, blah gets old. I remember the days when this board was young... I miss those days, because at least then we didn't have all the complaining - or at least there was agreement about what to complain about. So many years of dismal performances, bad luck, and mismanagement has brought us to this point... but I doubt even a superbowl win would change things here for long, people are too accustomed to complaining. If I want to hear complaining, I'll go eat lunch in the lunchroom with my co-workers, at least they complain about things which are relevant to my life.

 

To any former players who read this - Thank you very much for your time here. And thank you even more for playing for the team I choose to love.

[Chandler#81]

It would not be unreasonable to believe he bought tickets for himself and his family. It's also possible he planned to return to Buffalo, after his career ended, so why give up the seats.? He only played one more year, and tickets back then were not that expensive. As someone else posted it has been fun doing the research. I was shocked to discover that Paul Costa averaged over 16.0 per catch over his career and over 19 as a rookie. Pretty impressive for a tight end in todays world!

Too bad we had to switch him to OT to shore up poor O-line play.. Cunningham??