Sully is at it again but I find it hard to argue this time.

[CosmicBills]

Having an opinion does not mean having an agenda. 1) Having an opinion requires evaluating the facts and making an informed decision on those facts. As a newspaper writer, he would generally have access to certain kinds of knowledge that his readers would not. 2) Having an agenda means that he is pushing a particular theme, over the course of several pieces, which works outside his opinion, or fact, to establish that agenda.

 

As someone who communicates in English, you should understand the difference.

 

1. That's what Sully does. It's a fact that this team has been miserable for a decade. It's a fact that the biggest culprit has been poor draft classes, poor management from the GM's office up to Ralph's. It's also a fact that the Bills' LB corps is one of the worst in the NFL.

 

You just don't agree with these facts. That doesn't make Sully wrong.

 

2. Again, he's a columnist. He's paid for his opinion. He's not paid to be a reporter. And, using the facts at hand (a decade and counting playoff drought, poor management, questionable drafts and hires) to present his case that the Bills are a bad NFL team. He's not INVENTING these facts, they're FACTS. We as fans don't like to hear them because fans are supposed to support the team. He's under NO obligation as a columnist to support the Bills OR report just the facts. That's not how it works.

 

I'm a writer myself and have never been a huge fan of Sully's stuff. But it doesn't mean he's wrong.

 

But if you want to start a pissing contest with me, by all means. Go for it.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

But if you want to start a pissing contest with me, by all means. Go for it.

I will. It's not at all a fact that the Bills have the worst or one of the worst LB corps in all of football. That's an opinion.

 

There is no doubt about it that their roles are different. As you noted Wilson is more of a reporter and Sullivan is a columnist. The point I was making was that following this long term floundering team does have a withering impact on the reporters/columnists as it does on its fanbase.

Perhaps, but I haven't noticed that Allen Wilson's writing or coverage has withered or been any lesser because the Bills have sucked for a decade. I think he's been rather consistent. Not spectacular but solid and steady.

[wardigital]

1. That's what Sully does. It's a fact that this team has been miserable for a decade. It's a fact that the biggest culprit has been poor draft classes, poor management from the GM's office up to Ralph's. It's also a fact that the Bills' LB corps is one of the worst in the NFL.

 

You just don't agree with these facts. That doesn't make Sully wrong.

 

2. Again, he's a columnist. He's paid for his opinion. He's not paid to be a reporter. And, using the facts at hand (a decade and counting playoff drought, poor management, questionable drafts and hires) to present his case that the Bills are a bad NFL team. He's not INVENTING these facts, they're FACTS. We as fans don't like to hear them because fans are supposed to support the team. He's under NO obligation as a columnist to support the Bills OR report just the facts. That's not how it works.

 

I'm a writer myself and have never been a huge fan of Sully's stuff. But it doesn't mean he's wrong.

 

But if you want to start a pissing contest with me, by all means. Go for it.

 

Like I've said. There are many instances in which I believe that Mr. Sullivan either denies the facts or ignores them -- so no, I don't think that he does #1. This is a matter of opinion. You seem to think that he's working strictly from facts. That's fair enough. I respect that. I don't. Others don't. You should respect that -- and if you can't, frankly it is no one's fault but your own.

 

I'm not interested in getting in a pissing contest with you. Though I would suggest that you not even think of such a thing. You are not a toddler, so do not act like one. If there is some sort of internet muscle you want to flex by being facetious and condescending... by all means... but you aren't gaining any victories from having the last word or being the most ridiculous here. I'm about to go have dinner with friends and enjoy the evening. I am a happy person, and I won't be moved one way or another by whether or not you declare yourself the victor of a "pissing contest". Seriously: Grow up.

 

We have different opinions. If you are of a sound and reasonable mind, perhaps you might try respecting that, instead of viewing everything as a threat.

[theranter]

I hate sullivan, he misses the point 9 outta 10 times, and writes like a whiney little giral. However, this is not one of those times....

 

let us hope, that the sum is much greater than it's parts, which is entirely possible....on the inside certainly...

 

GO BILLS!

[JohnC]

one abou

John --

 

Fair points. This is all, of course, a matter of opinion. Whatever you or I say. I would suggest though, that Wilson has gone about this in such a way as to not sacrifice the respect of a large chunk of his readership, or to do with the topic as maliciously as Sullivan. That probably also lends him some more leeway. Hammer hard, get hammered hard.

 

As others have keenly noted Sullivan is a columnist/critic while Wilson is more of a reporter/chronicler. Their roles are qualitatively different. As you stated JS has a very combative writing style which reflects his sometimes staged crusty personality. I appreciate the fact that his approach doesn't appeal to you, as it doesn't appeal to many people. His argumentative style is not suitable for a lot of people.

 

Where I give him credit is that he is not afraid to challenge a corporate authority even when the authority doesn't believe that it should be challenged. Jerry Sullivan has stated that Ralph Wilson and OBD will not answer his calls because they believe that he has been overly harsh toward them. For him it is a badge of honor.

 

Being timid is not Sullivan's style. He is brash, often obnoxious and not willing to go along to get along. He is a provocative columnist who provokes. In other words he is getting paid to do what he does.

[Kelly the Dog]

Being timid is not Sullivan's style. He is brash, often obnoxious and not willing to go along to get along. He is a provocative columnist who provokes. In other words he is getting paid to do what he does.

In one respect, and one that shouldn't be under-estimated, is that his job really isn't to write about sports, his job as a columnist is to get people to read his writing about sports. In that way, he's very good. He gets people to talk about him, gets people to read him, gets people to argue with each other at water coolers, tailgates and on message boards. His bosses probably love him.

[JohnC]

In one respect, and one that shouldn't be under-estimated, is that his job really isn't to write about sports, his job as a columnist is to get people to read his writing about sports. In that way, he's very good. He gets people to talk about him, gets people to read him, gets people to argue with each other at water coolers, tailgates and on message boards. His bosses probably love him.

 

Don't you think he would get a kick out of reading the comments on this BB about him?

[Lv-Bills]

OK I just read the whole article, what did he say that was inaccurate? He was spot on with every point. Stop being so sensitive, this is footaball we're talking about right? He's too synical, a troll, not tactful enough-BS! If you don't like his opinions , don't read his stuff. I cannot argue with one thing he said, he's right IMO.

He's almost always dead on. LOL. It's hilarious to watch the homers here get offended, and there are multiple people here saying it's not true. We've even had people say you can't sure up every position in one year in Free Agency. We've already signed two LB's to help out this year. LMAO. Davis and Torbor. Yeah right.

 

So Sullivan's wrong huh? Well, all you naysayers, give us five other teams with worse LB's than the Bills. Go ahead, let's see it. Give us 5 other teams. I'm curious to know who they are.

 

1. That's what Sully does. It's a fact that this team has been miserable for a decade. It's a fact that the biggest culprit has been poor draft classes, poor management from the GM's office up to Ralph's. It's also a fact that the Bills' LB corps is one of the worst in the NFL.

 

You just don't agree with these facts. That doesn't make Sully wrong.

 

2. Again, he's a columnist. He's paid for his opinion. He's not paid to be a reporter. And, using the facts at hand (a decade and counting playoff drought, poor management, questionable drafts and hires) to present his case that the Bills are a bad NFL team. He's not INVENTING these facts, they're FACTS. We as fans don't like to hear them because fans are supposed to support the team. He's under NO obligation as a columnist to support the Bills OR report just the facts. That's not how it works.

 

I'm a writer myself and have never been a huge fan of Sully's stuff. But it doesn't mean he's wrong.

 

But if you want to start a pissing contest with me, by all means. Go for it.

Dead on, 100%. You would think that some of the people are relatives of Ralph Wilson or Russ Brandon. In fact, I would swear that Promo is Russ Brandon posting in disguise.

 

Notice though, nobody has offered up a corps of LB's worse than Buffalo's. There might be a team or two debatable, but no one has offered up any. Mainly because no one here can probably name all 3 or 4 LB's on teams they might think are worse than Buffalo's. Or, they know there aren't any.

 

I mean, people here actually think Poz is all pro caliber. When you have things like that going through people's heads, you know Sullivan isn't going to be popular with them.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Lv-Bills

[San Jose Bills Fan]

As I've already stated, criticizing the Bills is like shooting fish in a barrel. It takes zero skill, to do it the way Sullivan does it.

 

I take no offense to criticism of the Bills. It's how skillful that criticism is.

 

I thought that this was a discussion about Jerry Sullivan's "performance" for a man of his specific profession.

 

So his supporters claim that he's been right most of the time. Does that make him insightful? Is he doing anything as a professional columnist that many people here couldn't do better?

 

Mike Schopp criticizes the Bills on a regular basis. Does that make him accurate and insightful?

 

There's a disconnect going on in this discussion.

 

Like two sides arguing two different things.

[Lv-Bills]

As I've already stated, criticizing the Bills is like shooting fish in a barrel. It takes zero skill, to do it the way Sullivan does it.

 

I take no offense to criticism of the Bills. It's how skillful that criticism is.

 

I thought that this was a discussion about Jerry Sullivan's "performance" for a man of his specific profession.

 

So his supporters claim that he's been right most of the time. Does that make him insightful? Is he doing anything as a professional columnist that many people here couldn't do better?

 

Mike Schopp criticizes the Bills on a regular basis. Does that make him accurate and insightful?

 

There's a disconnect going on in this discussion.

 

Like two sides arguing two different things.

There aren't many reporters, if any at all, that can be more insightful to us than we already know about the Bills. Really, do some of you just crave anyone's coverage of the Bills? I have read very few articles about the Bills over the last ten years that have provided all that much insight, because it's been the same mistakes made over and over and over and over and over and over. No one has any connections. That was obvious when our coaching search was being conducted this year. It's like fuggin groundhog day with this organization. Same mistakes. Same established players being let go. Same stupid draft pick mistakes in which the fans would have picked better selections just by watching Kiper.

 

I mean, really, what other "insight" can there be? And if don't think reporters or radio talk show hosts don't think this sucks too, you're wrong. Wait until WGR's postgame this year. It will sound like another broken record of the last 10 years.

 

Until this organization gives their fans ANY glimmer of hope, this groundhog day cycle we are in will continue over and over. I just don't know why some of you are so offended by it. This organization's front office is a joke. Until that changes, this type of coverage from the media and fans will continue.

 

But to some of you, everyone else covering the Bills must be wrong, although none of you can prove them wrong. I mean, we all hope they are wrong, but deep down in, we know they aren't.

 

So, instead of being mad at the Bills front office, instead we should hate......

 

Jerry Sullivan

ESPN

NFL Network

Marshall Faulk

Peter King

Monday Night Football

Mike Shanahan

Bill Cowher

John Gruden

Pro Football Talk

Billy Volek

The Anchor Bar (Simply for not offering all Bills fans free wings)

Tim Graham (Only if he writes something negative)

Eugene Parker

The sporting News

Rochester D and C

Toronto (Of course for not giving two schitts about the Bills, like the rest of America and especially everyone we hate)

All fantasy magazines, leagues, and the leagues players for not picking ANY Bills except MAYBE Lee Evans

 

Who else am I missing?

Edited August 27, 2010 by Lv-Bills

[bills44]

Don't you think he would get a kick out of reading the comments on this BB about him?

 

He's here. I'd bet $$ on it. He's just too much of a coward to sign up under his own name.

[Lv-Bills]

He's here. I'd bet $$ on it. He's just too much of a coward to sign up under his own name.

Kind of like Bills44??? How many real names are on here again? Maybe 1%?

[bills44]

Kind of like Bills44??? How many real names are on here again? Maybe 1%?

 

Master of the obvious, just like Jerry Sullivan

 

If you want to pay me to post my opinions, I'll gladly use my real name.

[Lv-Bills]

Master of the obvious, just like Jerry Sullivan

 

If you want to pay me to post my opinions, I'll gladly use my real name.

When you, and everyone else uses their real name, maybe he should. It's pretty simple. Come on, then we can all google you and critique you. Maybe if it's a gov't job, we can look up your salary, job title, and all kinds of stuff.

 

I just think it's kind of funny that you call him out for not signing up under his real name, when you are Bills44. Jerry is available via call in on WGR, and by writing to the editor in every edition of the Buffalo News. You can also critique each of his columns on their webpage.

 

The only guys I know that own up to who they are were JW (who takes it and dishes it out like a man....kudos), Tim Graham (who was incredibly thin skinned) Fezmid (which I give him credit for) and Poojer (when he worked at Circuit City). And even the last two didn't use their real names. Why should Sullivan have to do that?

 

Not that I always agree with Sully, but he's pretty available for people to rip him apart. How available are you in your every day job for the general masses to pick you apart?

Edited August 27, 2010 by Lv-Bills

[wardigital]

When you, and everyone else uses their real name, maybe he should. It's pretty simple. Come on, then we can all google you and critique you. Maybe if it's a gov't job, we can look up your salary, job title, and all kinds of stuff.

 

I just think it's kind of funny that you call him out for not signing up under his real name, when you are Bills44. Jerry is available via call in on WGR, and by writing to the editor in every edition of the Buffalo News. You can also critique each of his columns on their webpage.

 

The only guys I know that own up to who they are were JW (who takes it and dishes it out like a man....kudos), Tim Graham (who was incredibly thin skinned) Fezmid (which I give him credit for) and Poojer (when he worked at Circuit City). And even the last two didn't use their real names. Why should Sullivan have to do that?

 

Not that I always agree with Sully, but he's pretty available for people to rip him apart. How available are you in your every day job for the general masses to pick you apart?

 

I don't agree with much of what Lv-Bills has posted in this thread, but I do agree totally with the idea that there's no need to sign up with his real name. People are pointlessly vicious to each other here, and guys like wawrow get blind sided sometimes just for being who they are, which is unnecessary.

 

He's almost always dead on. LOL. It's hilarious to watch the homers here get offended, and there are multiple people here saying it's not true. We've even had people say you can't sure up every position in one year in Free Agency. We've already signed two LB's to help out this year. LMAO. Davis and Torbor. Yeah right.

 

So Sullivan's wrong huh? Well, all you naysayers, give us five other teams with worse LB's than the Bills. Go ahead, let's see it. Give us 5 other teams. I'm curious to know who they are.

 

 

Dead on, 100%. You would think that some of the people are relatives of Ralph Wilson or Russ Brandon. In fact, I would swear that Promo is Russ Brandon posting in disguise.

 

Notice though, nobody has offered up a corps of LB's worse than Buffalo's. There might be a team or two debatable, but no one has offered up any. Mainly because no one here can probably name all 3 or 4 LB's on teams they might think are worse than Buffalo's. Or, they know there aren't any.

 

I mean, people here actually think Poz is all pro caliber. When you have things like that going through people's heads, you know Sullivan isn't going to be popular with them.

 

I totally agree with the idea that the Bills LB is probably the worst in football, or at least very close to the worst. This has nothing to do with whether or not Jerry Sullivan is good at his job, which he is not.

 

There aren't many reporters, if any at all, that can be more insightful to us than we already know about the Bills. Really, do some of you just crave anyone's coverage of the Bills? I have read very few articles about the Bills over the last ten years that have provided all that much insight, because it's been the same mistakes made over and over and over and over and over and over. No one has any connections. That was obvious when our coaching search was being conducted this year. It's like fuggin groundhog day with this organization. Same mistakes. Same established players being let go. Same stupid draft pick mistakes in which the fans would have picked better selections just by watching Kiper.

 

I mean, really, what other "insight" can there be? And if don't think reporters or radio talk show hosts don't think this sucks too, you're wrong. Wait until WGR's postgame this year. It will sound like another broken record of the last 10 years.

 

Until this organization gives their fans ANY glimmer of hope, this groundhog day cycle we are in will continue over and over. I just don't know why some of you are so offended by it. This organization's front office is a joke. Until that changes, this type of coverage from the media and fans will continue.

 

But to some of you, everyone else covering the Bills must be wrong, although none of you can prove them wrong. I mean, we all hope they are wrong, but deep down in, we know they aren't.

 

So, instead of being mad at the Bills front office, instead we should hate......

 

Jerry Sullivan

ESPN

NFL Network

Marshall Faulk

Peter King

Monday Night Football

Mike Shanahan

Bill Cowher

John Gruden

Pro Football Talk

Billy Volek

The Anchor Bar (Simply for not offering all Bills fans free wings)

Tim Graham (Only if he writes something negative)

Eugene Parker

The sporting News

Rochester D and C

Toronto (Of course for not giving two schitts about the Bills, like the rest of America and especially everyone we hate)

All fantasy magazines, leagues, and the leagues players for not picking ANY Bills except MAYBE Lee Evans

 

Who else am I missing?

 

Well, first of all, this isn't an "either/or". We don't have to hate one or hate the other. We don't have to hate either even. And there is plenty of quality coverage of the Buffalo Bills that occurs, some of which is conducted on this very web-site. I don't hate Jerry Sullivan because he's critical of the Bills -- there is no one more critical of this team than myself. I hate him because he's bad at his job, and not particularly interested in ever getting any better at his job.

[Lv-Bills]

I don't agree with much of what Lv-Bills has posted in this thread, but I do agree totally with the idea that there's no need to sign up with his real name. People are pointlessly vicious to each other here, and guys like wawrow get blind sided sometimes just for being who they are, which is unnecessary.

 

 

 

I totally agree with the idea that the Bills LB is probably the worst in football, or at least very close to the worst. This has nothing to do with whether or not Jerry Sullivan is good at his job, which he is not.

And why isn't he good at what he does? Because you said so? Sounds kind of like an opinion to me. You know, the same opinion that Jerry Sullivan is paid to give.

 

If Jerry wasn't any good, he wouldn't have lasted this long. I'm sure there are many younger, cheaper, no good columnists that could have taken his place. But, the Buffalo News keeps paying him to write week after week, year after year. He must have some kind of talent.

 

Damn, I can't believe I'm defending him this much. LOL.

[bills44]

When you, and everyone else uses their real name, maybe he should. It's pretty simple. Come on, then we can all google you and critique you. Maybe if it's a gov't job, we can look up your salary, job title, and all kinds of stuff.

 

I just think it's kind of funny that you call him out for not signing up under his real name, when you are Bills44. Jerry is available via call in on WGR, and by writing to the editor in every edition of the Buffalo News. You can also critique each of his columns on their webpage.

 

The only guys I know that own up to who they are were JW (who takes it and dishes it out like a man....kudos), Tim Graham (who was incredibly thin skinned) Fezmid (which I give him credit for) and Poojer (when he worked at Circuit City). And even the last two didn't use their real names. Why should Sullivan have to do that?

 

Not that I always agree with Sully, but he's pretty available for people to rip him apart. How available are you in your every day job for the general masses to pick you apart?

 

I don't care enough to write to the editor, to call in to WGR, or to read one of Sullivan's weblogs. Just curious, what do you think would happen if I criticized Sullivan on WGR, or on his weblog? Do you think he'd respond in a civil manner? If he bristles at criticism, then maybe he shouldn't have picked the line of work he did. Just a thought.

 

Brad Riter and Nick Mendola used their real names, I believe. Nice to see that some members of the media do have spines.

 

 

 

If Jerry wasn't any good, he wouldn't have lasted this long. I'm sure there are many younger, cheaper, no good columnists that could have taken his place. But, the Buffalo News keeps paying him to write week after week, year after year. He must have some kind of talent.

 

 

 

with all his experience (and apparently his journalistic talent, LOL), you'd figure he'd have moved on, to a larger media market. I mean, I'm sure that big city papers and knocking down his door....

[dave mcbride]

And why isn't he good at what he does? Because you said so? Sounds kind of like an opinion to me. You know, the same opinion that Jerry Sullivan is paid to give.

 

If Jerry wasn't any good, he wouldn't have lasted this long. I'm sure there are many younger, cheaper, no good columnists that could have taken his place. But, the Buffalo News keeps paying him to write week after week, year after year. He must have some kind of talent.

 

Damn, I can't believe I'm defending him this much. LOL.

 

Longevity isn't necessarily a sign of journalistic talent: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/27/sports/27sandomir.html?ref=sports

 

 

Also, I use my real name!

Edited August 27, 2010 by dave mcbride

[bills44]

Longevity isn't necessarily a sign of journalistic talent: http://www.nytimes.c...html?ref=sports

 

Also, I use my real name!

 

Ha!

 

This line stuck out: Jason McIntyre of the blog The Big Lead said by telephone, “He’s a one-trick pony — an angry guy venting.”

[Lv-Bills]

I don't care enough to write to the editor, to call in to WGR, or to read one of Sullivan's weblogs. Just curious, what do you think would happen if I criticized Sullivan on WGR, or on his weblog? Do you think he'd respond in a civil manner? If he bristles at criticism, then maybe he shouldn't have picked the line of work he did. Just a thought.

 

Brad Riter and Nick Mendola used their real names, I believe. Nice to see that some members of the media do have spines.

Yeah, they used their real names to promote their shows. OK Bills44, you can't really handle me criticizing you let alone post your real name on here. So again, can you please give a good reason why anyone should have to do it? He doesn't need the publicity, obviously. So until 90% of us do it, why should he have to do it?

 

And he might respond in a civil manner, and he might not. Isn't that how talk radio works. As a matter of fact, the majority of time when I travel from VA to Buffalo for Bills games, I listen to as much of WGR as I can, on gamedays, because I just don't hear Bills talk in VA. Obviously. And when I do listen to it, the majority of callers seem to agree with the majority of what he has to say. Pretty much because the Bills make it easy for him to target them.

 

So, how about rooting for the Bills to get their schitt together, so he'll shut up, rather than critiquing the man for giving his opinion, which is his job? If anything, the only people you can prove that have no talent are the Bills and their front office. Show me the records, and that is proof enough. The fact that Sully is getting paid to induce discussion and the fact that the Buffalo radio stations ask him to be on air with them shows he is successful in his job.

 

Again, there is no reason for a guy like Sullivan to post his real name. Wanna rip him face to face, call in, write in, or show up gamedays at the corner of Abbott and Southwestern (Is the show still located there?). Let him know how you feel. Otherwise, don't call the man out, when you don't have to guts to do what you want him to do.

 

Ha!

 

This line stuck out: Jason McIntyre of the blog The Big Lead said by telephone, “He’s a one-trick pony — an angry guy venting.”

You're really citing a blogger? Really? A blogger? And let me get this straight, because the link won't work for me, for some reason. If I'm reading this correctly....I'm gathering a blogger is calling some journalist out for being a one trick pony.

 

So, in other words, a venting blogger, is calling out a venting columnist. Boy, sounds like a good blog to me. Must be a reason I've never heard of Jason McIntyre.

 

And if by chance the blogger is talking about Sullivan, he's a columnist that is a one trick pony venting about a franchise that pretty much has been a one trick loser for 10 straight years, correct? Maybe Jerry should take that as a compliment. After all, sounds like he's dead on with what the Bills have given him to talk about. Unless of course, all he did was rip the Bills in the heyday, which I doubt. He wasn't even in Buffalo then, was he?

Edited August 27, 2010 by Lv-Bills