Bills the Pirates of the NFL (new ESPN article)

[JohnC]

Why is this surprising to anyone? Given the age of the owner and that his family doesn't want the team after he passes on, why would Mr. Wilson not be positioning the team for sale?

 

Ralph Wilson has been acting as if he was positioning his team for sale for the half century of his ownership.

 

Donald Sterling of the LA Clippers in the NBA and the owner of the Pirates in MLB and Ralph Wilson all have the same business model which emphasize being profitable over being competitive. I have no quarrel running a business like a business. I just wish the scales were re-balanced a little more toward winning.

[C.Biscuit97]

Yay! A negative Nancy circle jerk!!! I can't wait for the opener.

[DanInUticaTampa]

Look, I'm obviously not going to be able to convince you. And you seem to be one of those Bills fans who deserves exactly what you get. The Jags and Chargers are both in danger of moving, and both sets of ownership have attempted to address the problem, in part, by a focus on the product (in very different ways). Both examples show that fan pressure does produce results, in different ways. NFL franchises are not, as you suggest, completely immune to the market. It's just a nonsensical notion.

 

As a business, they are very much affected by the market. but as a football team, hell no.

 

The chargers havn't done anythign more to address their problem than any other team. In fact, I would argue that the bills have done more to get a better product (new football GM, new coaching, new schemes, and hell, they even signed TO!).

 

It is obvious that it doesn't matter how much money is being spent. If we all stopped spending money, do you REALLY think the front office is going to say "alright, the fans are pissed. Let's try making some good draft picks instead of bad ones, that way they will all come back to us."

 

GIVE ME A BREAK! That kind of talk does not happen in the war room, they don't say "we don't know who we are picking 1st yet. We are still waiting on tickets sales info to decide whether we pick a good player or a useless player." If you seriously think that kind of talk actually happens in the war room, then you must be one of those people that think the moonlanding was faked.

 

And I don't think I spend a dime on this team. I don't live near buffalo, so I don't buy tickets. I don't bother with merchandise, and I don't pay for nfl sunday ticket. Hell, I usually just watch the games at either a bar or online (oh no!).

 

It is trully hilarious that someone thinks that our drafts could have been different had the fans not spent any money. that is just ridiclous and a huge cop out for this crazy organization.

 

Yeah, sure, I believe you. The fans are just at fault as the owner/front office....hahahahaha. This team sucks because danaue made stupid and ballsy risky/flashy picks like mcgahee and parrish. Levy went on a "smart people and good character" phase and signed an Ivy League Coach and drafted a stanford QB. THAT is why the team sucks. Because the front office made stupid decisions that had no impact on whether or not the team was selling enough tickets.

Edited August 23, 2010 by DanInUticaTampa

[CodeMonkey]

Yay! A negative Nancy circle jerk!!! I can't wait for the opener.

I would argue that the only one "jerking" in here so far was you.

[DanInUticaTampa]

man, if we could only go back in time..... if we all stopped spending money before the whitner pick, we could have ngata on our team! Man, hindsight is 20/20 I guess.

 

But that is our fault, the fans. It is our fault we drafted Whitner instead of ngata. We should all feel ashamed of ourselves.

Edited August 23, 2010 by DanInUticaTampa

[Coach Tuesday]

man, if we could only go back in time..... if we all stopped spending money before the whitner pick, we could have ngata on our team! Man, hindsight is 20/20 I guess.

 

But that is our fault, the fans. It is our fault we drafted Whitner instead of ngata. We should all feel ashamed of ourselves.

 

Now you're just making a fool of yourself. Show me where I said that fans' spending decisions dictate specific draft picks?

[BillsVet]

Ralph Wilson has been acting as if he was positioning his team for sale for the half century of his ownership.

 

Donald Sterling of the LA Clippers in the NBA and the owner of the Pirates in MLB and Ralph Wilson all have the same business model which emphasize being profitable over being competitive. I have no quarrel running a business like a business. I just wish the scales were re-balanced a little more toward winning.

 

This is precisely the point we're making: that Buffalo remains geared more toward profiting than success. And before someone jumps to extremes, it's not as though anyone is demanding they go New York Yankees and break the bank each year. No rational person demands RW spend like Jerry Jones or Dan Snyder. I'd like to see him spend on proven front office types and then delegate more responsibility. But we know this will never ever happen. That to me is the greatest issue on why Buffalo is to the NFL what Pittsburgh is to MLB.

 

You've made the point that Polian was fired when he conflicted with Littman and the finance people about budget issues. It's noteworthy that 17 years later we're discussing the same point.

[billsfan89]

Its possible that the Bills have a hard time attracting talent? Not that they aren't willing to spend?

[DanInUticaTampa]

Now you're just making a fool of yourself. Show me where I said that fans' spending decisions dictate specific draft picks?

 

You said fan spending would make the team better. wouldn't that mean we would draft better if the fans spent less money?

 

hey, it is your logic, not mine. You are the one that claimed the team would be "better" if it didn't have any fans spending money. You just don't explain how except "well, that is how the free market works!" (which it isn't btw).

 

The free market, in reality, when a company loses customers, it usually cuts spending, saves on resources, and lays people off. They don't jump into the "let's spend millions of dollars on development so in 10 years we make a profit!" That just isn't how it works.

 

I don't know how you think that this team would be better if fans spent less money. If the fans spend no money for one year, what would be so different? If anything, this team would be worse. Cowher would have turned us down even faster than before. What coach wants to come to a team with no fan support? TO would probably be trash talking about us like crazy saying how the fans suck instead of saying how much he liked the fans. Do you really think that if the stadium had no bills fans, the team would be better? how? I just assumed you meant we would draft better and sign better players/coaches. But if you have some other way the teams get better, than you should explain yourself.

[DrDawkinstein]

This is precisely the point we're making: that Buffalo remains geared more toward profiting than success. And before someone jumps to extremes, it's not as though anyone is demanding they go New York Yankees and break the bank each year. No rational person demands RW spend like Jerry Jones or Dan Snyder. I'd like to see him spend on proven front office types and then delegate more responsibility. But we know this will never ever happen. That to me is the greatest issue on why Buffalo is to the NFL what Pittsburgh is to MLB.

 

You've made the point that Polian was fired when he conflicted with Littman and the finance people about budget issues. It's noteworthy that 17 years later we're discussing the same point.

 

exactly! thank you

[SlamnSam]

Unfortunately the fans have zero say in it.

 

The fans pretty much have all the say. Stop going to games and you will see action. Why should I give you fresh milk at the grocery store if you the consumer are willing to pay $20 for sour milk. Get a grip. It has always been supply and demand. It's our society that needs everything now. The fans are the ones who fund this dam sport. It has nothing to do with smart buisness men. I know, start crying about what if the team leaves Buffalo. Maybe they will, but how long are you willing to pay $20 for sour milk?

[CodeMonkey]

but how long are you willing to pay $20 for sour milk?

As I have said all along, forever ... if they stay in Buffalo.

Not saying that is a good thing or a bad thing, just how it is for a lot of people.

[joejoebills]

Disturbing article from ESPN on the Pirates.

 

Basically, the ownership is quite content to field miserable teams as long as they can generate the cash flow to make $20 million distributions to team owners.

 

This really makes you think when re-reading Mark Gaughan's article about the Bills ranking dead last in 2009 cap spending and 8th from last in terms of cash outlays.

 

From 1960 to 2010, Ralph Wilson's ownership interest in the Bills has grown by nearly 25% per year -- from $25,000 to a fair value of $900 million. This investment income far surpasses whatever current revenue is generated by big market cities from PSLs, luxury boxes, and other factors. Yet, rather than spend some of this money, the Bills -- like the Pirates -- seem content to generate profits rather than field a competitive team.

Do you really care what other blow hards have to say about another team? do you think the bills are the same as the pirate? if you do you're an idiot.

[Buftex]

Part of the reason Mr Wilson can't hire good managers, as has been suggested, is that his unwillingness to spend money takes the Bills out of the running for good candidates. If you look at the Bills history, over the last 40 years (I won't speak of the 60's, because things were a lot different then), the Bills have had a few small runs of success, strung together by years of failure. The only time, in all of that time, that Mr Wilson stepped out, and tried to hire a high profile person, was Chuck Knox. Knox was very successful, but, eventually left, as he understood, that Mr Wilson was not dedicated to making the team, on the field, better, as long as it was profitable.

 

The second stretch of success, Mr Wilson hit lightening in a bottle. First, he hired an unknown, who was on nobody's radar, in Bill Polian, to be his general manager. Secondly, he allowed Polian, to hire his long-time friend, Marv Levy, also on nobody's radar, to run the team on the field. No doubt, the fact that Levy would be amongst the lowest paid coaches in the NFL time, throughout his time in Buffalo, made him all the more attractive, in the owners eyes. The fact that he was willing to do so, while also leading the franchise to amazing heights, was just icing on the cake. Hopefully the same kind of magic is cooking now, with Nix and Gailey.

 

The fan base is there for the Bills. It may not be Dallas Cowboys big, but Bills fans, for the most part, have been loyal throughout the history of this franchise. Great fans. As I have been saying for years, the best thing about this franchise, is its' fans.

[dhg]

The fans pretty much have all the say. Stop going to games and you will see action. Why should I give you fresh milk at the grocery store if you the consumer are willing to pay $20 for sour milk. Get a grip. It has always been supply and demand. It's our society that needs everything now. The fans are the ones who fund this dam sport. It has nothing to do with smart buisness men. I know, start crying about what if the team leaves Buffalo. Maybe they will, but how long are you willing to pay $20 for sour milk?

 

Comparing a quart of milk to a professional sports franchise is ludicrous.

[PromoTheRobot]

Part of the reason Mr Wilson can't hire good managers, as has been suggested, is that his unwillingness to spend money takes the Bills out of the running for good candidates. If you look at the Bills history, over the last 40 years (I won't speak of the 60's, because things were a lot different then), the Bills have had a few small runs of success, strung together by years of failure. The only time, in all of that time, that Mr Wilson stepped out, and tried to hire a high profile person, was Chuck Knox. Knox was very successful, but, eventually left, as he understood, that Mr Wilson was not dedicated to making the team, on the field, better, as long as it was profitable.

 

The second stretch of success, Mr Wilson hit lightening in a bottle. First, he hired an unknown, who was on nobody's radar, in Bill Polian, to be his general manager. Secondly, he allowed Polian, to hire his long-time friend, Marv Levy, also on nobody's radar, to run the team on the field. No doubt, the fact that Levy would be amongst the lowest paid coaches in the NFL time, throughout his time in Buffalo, made him all the more attractive, in the owners eyes. The fact that he was willing to do so, while also leading the franchise to amazing heights, was just icing on the cake. Hopefully the same kind of magic is cooking now, with Nix and Gailey.

 

The fan base is there for the Bills. It may not be Dallas Cowboys big, but Bills fans, for the most part, have been loyal throughout the history of this franchise. Great fans. As I have been saying for years, the best thing about this franchise, is its' fans.

Ralph's problem has always been ceding control, not money. Yes, money does matter. Wilson did not become a near billionaire wasting money. But Wilson has always been a control freak and it takes a lot for him to let go. He trusted Polian and did well. He shot the lock off his wallet for Tom Donahoe and gave him total control and it was an unmitigated disaster.

 

And since Ralph is old, and old people really have a hard time trusting them young whipper snappers, he turned to Marv Levy. Another bad decision.

 

But one good thing was hiring Russ Brandon. Many here have very unfair and unfounded criticisms of Russ. But Ralph does trust Russ to make decisions, though Russ still has to clear things with the old man. When The Bills couldn't hire a marquee coach or GM, it was Russ who suggested Buddy Nix since Ralph knew him and trusted him. Nix, in turn, brought in Chan Gailey.

 

So right now you have two layers of management buffering the team from Ralph: Buddy & Russ. That means, for the most part, Ralph is staying out of team matters. But we all know he could decide to involve himself at any time. But Russ and Buddy are there to soothe any concerns he may have.

 

PTR

Edited August 23, 2010 by PromoTheRobot

[dollars 2 donuts]

Truthful. The Pirates are a MLB farm team. Year after year, they consistently sell off a complete starting roster of MLB players. While the Bills have let go of some players who have went on to succeed elsewhere, I can't say that the Bills have had 10 players in the past decade that fall into this category:

1. Winfield
2. Pat
3. Clements
4. McBadknee
5. Dockery? Maybe?
6. Leonhard (Switch to 3-4 benefitted him)
7. Bannan (Switch to 3-4 benfitted him)
8. Henry? before suspension and fathering 10 more kids?
9. Bledsoe? does one half good season at Dallas count enough?
10. I'm stuck right here, and I stretched for four of the guys (Bannan and the 3 ?'s)

 

 

10. London Fletcher - who even as of this morning on NFL Radio is considered the heart of the Redskins, even over McNabb.

[bills in va]

LOL ok.

 

Yes Free Agent signings make teams awesome. IT works every year right? LOL ok. Oh wait i know the bills need to spend 14 million a year on a corner. If they did this the fans would be happy?

 

Sorry but your conclusions from two articles about two different cities and two different sports are poor. I don't understand how you can draw comparisons between the two.

Really? The pirates stink every year, so do the Bills. The Pirates have loyal blue collar fans, so do the Bills. The Pirates have tiny payroll compared to the competetive teams, don't spend on free agents, like the Bills. The Pirate fans get the shaft, as do we, while the oner makes millions like Ralph. Are you serious? You don't see the similarities. Just because its baseball and football doesnt mean its apples and oranges.

[DanInUticaTampa]

Ralph's problem has always been ceding control, not money. Yes, money does matter. Wilson did not become a near billionaire wasting money. But Wilson has always been a control freak and it takes a lot for him to let go. He trusted Polian and did well. He shot the lock off his wallet for Tom Donahoe and gave him total control and it was an unmitigated disaster.

 

And since Ralph is old, and old people really have a hard time trusting them young whipper snappers, he turned to Marv Levy. Another bad decision.

 

But one good thing was hiring Russ Brandon. Many here have very unfair and unfounded criticisms of Russ. But Ralph does trust Russ to make decisions, though Russ still has to clear things with the old man. When The Bills couldn't hire a marquee coach or GM, it was Russ who suggested Buddy Nix since Ralph knew him and trusted him. Nix, in turn, brought in Chan Gailey.

 

So right now you have two layers of management buffering the team from Ralph: Buddy & Russ. That means, for the most part, Ralph is staying out of team matters. But we all know he could decide to involve himself at any time. But Russ and Buddy are there to soothe any concerns he may have.

 

PTR

 

this seems very close to the truth, if not the whole truth. Especially as more things surface, like when wilson wanted to start johnson over flutie. It isn't that flutie would could have won us the game or something, but the fact he told the coach how to do is job is very telling, and we don't even know how often it happens. Wilson obviously plays coach and GM, even though there are other people to do that. How much he does it, it is unsure. But I am hoping it isn't as bad as Davis and Snyder.

[Gabe Northern]

 

The guys who spend a ton, Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones, they make profits each year from their teams that Mr. Wilson can only dream of, and that's AFTER all the extra money they spend on signing bonuses and so on. The reason they can do that is because they are systematically raising their prices, gouging people on luxury boxes and charging personal seat licenses and so on. They do that simply because in their markets, they can. They make huge profits.

 

The article actually mentions the big-spending baseball teams as generating lower profits than the Pirates.

 

I think the same thing is true in football. The signing bonus amortization -- which the Bills don't do -- is enormously costly from a time value of money perspective. Any team that makes big use of signing bonuses is essentially borrowing from future revenue at high implied interest rates to fund them.