TROUBLE SELLING TICKETS (ALMOST)EVERYWHERE

[kasper13]

1968-1971 was worse than now. Dismantled the AFL Championship teams. Record was horrid. RW was looking to get a new stadium built and there was plenty of talk about the team moving if it wasn't. Even in late 1972, there was some doubt the new stadium would open on time for the 1973 season. Lou Saban bolted. Coaches were terrible. Lots of bad trades.

 

1976-1977 was worse than now. In my opinion, this was RW at his absolute cheapest. Go read "Relentless". Real bad economy in Buffalo at the time. Players were holding out and/or demanding to be traded because RW would not pay anyone. Ton of trades, mostly bad, strictly made because of money. Joe Ferguson played in the preseason without a contract. He wanted something like $70,000 while Bert Jones of the Colts was making $200,000. RW wouldn't pay him. Attendance was in the low 20's for some games. Not more than 50,000 for others.

 

1984-85 was worse. Attendance/season ticket sales were at all-time lows for Rich Stadium. Only game in two years that sold out was the Dallas game in 1984 and even that game was blacked out. Mid-season games in 1985 had 20,000 people at most. In fact, I lived in Cheektowaga at the time, we would leave for a 1pm game at noon. We could literally park right up front in Lot 1 and be in our seats by 12:45. Team was probably the worst on the field that it has ever been, especially in 1985. Although in 1985, we did have future stars in Bruce Smith, Andre Reed and Frank Reich plus Jim Kelly & Kent Hull in the USFL. Nobody knew what was about to happen in a few short years.

[Mr. WEO]

I've never heard him say this. I'd challenge you to find anything in writing where he's said as much.

Come on! After the 2006 CBA Ralph was saying that the small market teams ("Buffalo" as far as he was concerned) would not be able to compete or thrive because of the agreement. Had was meeting with Pataki, Schumer, local pols---all of whom repeated the same stuff. You missed that??

 

But, 4 years (and over 100 million in profit) later the Bills are financially as sound as ever. Pataki's has evaporated and Schumer is busy spending your money on something else you didn't want.

[dwight in philly]

This is the direction it's headed (or place it's already reached), no doubt about it.

 

It's unfortunate. The question is whether it will really crowd out all of the cities you mention, or just Buffalo, JAX, Cincy, and a couple of others.

 

Combined economy of Buffalo-Rochester still smaller than most cities. Add Southern Ontario (net of Toronto) and we're in the middle of the pack.

as for toronto, the fans that are bills fans from T O, would much rather come to the ralph and take part in the game day experience than be force-fed a game in the rogers center. the lack of tailgating, atmosphere, etc, is totally to blame and was a pure money grab on the bills part. that fan base WANTS to come to the ralph!, keep it that way, and the support will always be there.

[coldstorage5]

The Jets have not sold out and the Giants due to the PSL, for the first time in 40-50yrs are selling tickets at ticketmaster in a few days..... I love it,.... They built a 1.6 Billion dollar stadium, parking was a disaster Monday,.... Now they cant sell their season tickets because they are so greedy

[coldstorage5]

1968-1971 was worse than now. Dismantled the AFL Championship teams. Record was horrid. RW was looking to get a new stadium built and there was plenty of talk about the team moving if it wasn't. Even in late 1972, there was some doubt the new stadium would open on time for the 1973 season. Lou Saban bolted. Coaches were terrible. Lots of bad trades.

 

1976-1977 was worse than now. In my opinion, this was RW at his absolute cheapest. Go read "Relentless". Real bad economy in Buffalo at the time. Players were holding out and/or demanding to be traded because RW would not pay anyone. Ton of trades, mostly bad, strictly made because of money. Joe Ferguson played in the preseason without a contract. He wanted something like $70,000 while Bert Jones of the Colts was making $200,000. RW wouldn't pay him. Attendance was in the low 20's for some games. Not more than 50,000 for others.

 

1984-85 was worse. Attendance/season ticket sales were at all-time lows for Rich Stadium. Only game in two years that sold out was the Dallas game in 1984 and even that game was blacked out. Mid-season games in 1985 had 20,000 people at most. In fact, I lived in Cheektowaga at the time, we would leave for a 1pm game at noon. We could literally park right up front in Lot 1 and be in our seats by 12:45. Team was probably the worst on the field that it has ever been, especially in 1985. Although in 1985, we did have future stars in Bruce Smith, Andre Reed and Frank Reich plus Jim Kelly & Kent Hull in the USFL. Nobody knew what was about to happen in a few short years.

 

wow didnt know he would not pay Joe ferguson.

[dwight in philly]

The Jets have not sold out and the Giants due to the PSL, for the first time in 40-50yrs are selling tickets at ticketmaster in a few days..... I love it,.... They built a 1.6 Billion dollar stadium, parking was a disaster Monday,.... Now they cant sell their season tickets because they are so greedy

i totally join you in your jubilation!, could not happen to a pair of better teams!

[BuffaloWest]

PFT just reported that tampa has been buying up unsold tickets at 34 cents on a dollar to ensure the game is not blacked out. it also points to a troubled economy in that area. when i see and hear this stuff, i always wonder why the bills are mentioned continuously as being in "trouble". i know of all the drawbacks regarding their "alleged"viabilty in WNY so spare me that, but why arent more teams being mentioned as prominently and as often as the bills are in regard to stability?

 

In 2009 The Buffalo Bills are ranked as the #10 team in Attendance per ESPN and Forbes. That is DAMN good...BUT- Bear in mind, that is with only 7 games being counted. If you add in the 8th game (Last year vs. NY Jets in Toronto) that is an additional 70,000 seats filled, moving the Bills up to #7 in attendance. That is very g-Damn good for a team that has sucked for 10 years...Again I point to 2 things...The Bills are a proven brand name commodity that sells-Always. If they were to become The Toronto Bills or LA Bills, there is ZERO guarantee that the brand sells like they have in Buffalo for 50 years...bad economy aside...The Bills franchise in Buffalo makes sense. Second, if this team begins winning again....They will be the #3 or #4 in attendance each year and people would pay more $ for tickets for a winner...that is a proven fact.

[BillsVet]

In 2009 The Buffalo Bills are ranked as the #10 team in Attendance per ESPN and Forbes. That is DAMN good...BUT- Bear in mind, that is with only 7 games being counted. If you add in the 8th game (Last year vs. NY Jets in Toronto) that is an additional 70,000 seats filled, moving the Bills up to #7 in attendance. That is very g-Damn good for a team that has sucked for 10 years...Again I point to 2 things...The Bills are a proven brand name commodity that sells-Always. If they were to become The Toronto Bills or LA Bills, there is ZERO guarantee that the brand sells like they have in Buffalo for 50 years...bad economy aside...The Bills franchise in Buffalo makes sense. Second, if this team begins winning again....They will be the #3 or #4 in attendance each year and people would pay more $ for tickets for a winner...that is a proven fact.

 

Have you read some of the previous posts in this thread? It's not about how many attend games, specifically in the lower bowl. The revenue is found in club seats and luxury boxes along with the 116M they receive in television revenue. Besides, their brand is irrelevant at this point, and national media ignore them quite easily. I'd wager they're not very high in merchandise sales either.

 

Buffalo has not released season ticket sales numbers for a reason. And three years into their Toronto experiment, the brand hasn't done anything up north to the point that Rogers is giving out tickets to fill up about 53k tickets, not 70k.

[BuffaloWest]

Have you read some of the previous posts in this thread? It's not about how many attend games, specifically in the lower bowl. The revenue is found in club seats and luxury boxes along with the 116M they receive in television revenue. Besides, their brand is irrelevant at this point, and national media ignore them quite easily. I'd wager they're not very high in merchandise sales either.

 

Buffalo has not released season ticket sales numbers for a reason. And three years into their Toronto experiment, the brand hasn't done anything up north to the point that Rogers is giving out tickets to fill up about 53k tickets, not 70k.

 

You're entirely wrong, the attendance number is critical to the entire TV rights deal that the NFL owners brokered. If Buffalo is a market that doesnt sell out the stadium seating, then the market is blacked out, the advertisers spots are not seen in a large tv market, and the team is then seen by the TV side (Which is where the majority of dollars come to NFL) as a weaker market putting The Bills in more jeopardy of relocation than not selling "local" luxury seats in the Ralph. The luxury seats in small markets like Buffalo dont affect the TV deal and ad buys. Ralph doesnt need to sell luxury seats like Jerry Jones and the two NY teams do to cover their huge nut. Ralph isnt trying to finace a stadium.Sure- Jones and company would like it if Buffalo sold more so they didnt need to share their revenues but if you dont think filling up every seat in that stadium is important, your crazy. That is what will keep the team here, and persuade another owner to keep them here too

[dollars 2 donuts]

You know what you guys, on a side note and hypothetically, if the Bills (lets say new owner John Doe) wanted to build a new, 275 million dollar stadium I bet the NFL would tell us to go shove it.

 

How dare we, in this day age have the audacity to build a new home for an NFL franchise for anything less than half a billion dollars for 10 games a year.

 

Yeah, thinking about the Jets, Giants, and Cowboys got me thinking that way, as well as the Bucs and Jacksonville.

 

Is all this opulence really necessary for every team around the league?

 

At some point bigger and better just have to give in to enough is enough.

 

...just sayin.

[Mr. WEO]

You know what you guys, on a side note and hypothetically, if the Bills (lets say new owner John Doe) wanted to build a new, 275 million dollar stadium I bet the NFL would tell us to go shove it.

 

How dare we, in this day age have the audacity to build a new home for an NFL franchise for anything less than half a billion dollars for 10 games a year.

 

Yeah, thinking about the Jets, Giants, and Cowboys got me thinking that way, as well as the Bucs and Jacksonville.

 

Is all this opulence really necessary for every team around the league?

 

At some point bigger and better just have to give in to enough is enough.

 

...just sayin.

$275 million stadium???

[BuffaloWest]

$275 million stadium???

Someone did a very cool mock up version of a reconfigured Ralph, similar to what was done in Green Bay. That might cost $275 million to add on....

 

I never hear anything about a lease renewal...has anyone? This team doesnt share any info...ticket sales #, long term plans for staying put, new stadium , or redesign...The news media doesnt go after it or get answers either.

 

If the Bills were my wife Id ask for a divorce...This is a dysfunctional relationship!

[Captain Caveman]

Come on! After the 2006 CBA Ralph was saying that the small market teams ("Buffalo" as far as he was concerned) would not be able to compete or thrive because of the agreement. Had was meeting with Pataki, Schumer, local pols---all of whom repeated the same stuff. You missed that??

 

But, 4 years (and over 100 million in profit) later the Bills are financially as sound as ever. Pataki's has evaporated and Schumer is busy spending your money on something else you didn't want.

 

Saying that the new CBA was not good for small market teams is very different than saying the Bills are in trouble.

 

The Bills have done ok financially because they haven't spent as much money on players, and because they have no debt, which is not the case for a lot of franchises.

 

Please, go ahead and find a statement by Ralph Wilson that says the Bills are in trouble (financially.)

[Mr. WEO]

Saying that the new CBA was not good for small market teams is very different than saying the Bills are in trouble.

 

The Bills have done ok financially because they haven't spent as much money on players, and because they have no debt, which is not the case for a lot of franchises.

 

Please, go ahead and find a statement by Ralph Wilson that says the Bills are in trouble (financially.)

 

You're being disingenuous. Despite the fact that Ralph was doing well at the time and the fact that the new CBA promised 5 times more financial aid to low revenue teams than any previous agreement, he was predicting finacial difficulty.

 

e.g., USA at the time:

 

Schumer, who joined Pataki and Giambra, as politicians who said they would lobby on Wilson's behalf, said he would speak with other senators who represent small-market NFL cities and arrange a meeting with Tagliabue. Schumer flew into Buffalo on Sunday to meet with Wilson and the two spoke after the Bills' final practice of a weekend mini-camp.

 

In the a 20-minute conference, Wilson was asked again about the future security of the Bills in western New York and painted an even bleaker picture than he has before.

 

"I've been asked that question many times and I've always said always, I'd never move the team from Buffalo," Wilson said. "Now, with this new CBA, I'm hopeful I can steadfastly adhere to what I said, but I'm making no promises."

[BuffaloBill]

Also curious, in your opinion when was it lower? Also not trying to be a smart ass, as I respect honest opinions.

 

I have zero expectations from the Bills for a second year in a row. I will cheer and go to a couple games as always, because I love the Bills.

 

It is bad now. When has it been worse?

 

 

The Kay Stephenson year was arguably worse. However, a decade of futility and mediocrity has been hard on the fan base. I have hope that the new regime will turn things around. Let's see if they do.

[dwight in philly]

Someone did a very cool mock up version of a reconfigured Ralph, similar to what was done in Green Bay. That might cost $275 million to add on....

 

I never hear anything about a lease renewal...has anyone? This team doesnt share any info...ticket sales #, long term plans for staying put, new stadium , or redesign...The news media doesnt go after it or get answers either.

 

If the Bills were my wife Id ask for a divorce...This is a dysfunctional relationship!

if and when they decide to re-evaluate the ralph's viablity, i hope it is done thru a retro-fit, re-configuration, what have you. building a stadium just is not right , nor needed! these past two stadium deals in NY and dallas should not be the bench-mark for a franchise's viablity. look at what KC is doing and that is hardly a "big" market. we must think realistically, not "pie in the sky" stadium bass-pro type panceas!

[MaineMoxie]

Excellent point on the stadium sizes. When RWS was built, the Bills insisted on making it seat 80,000 because the assumption was that attendance was the biggest moneymaker. Sellouts were quite rare, and blackouts so much more common. I can remember when the Bills-Oakland game was televised in September 1980 that it was the first time the blackout had been lifted in at least five years. Things have changed an awful lot. The stadia in Phoenix and Dallas have larger capacities, but they are the exception compared to other new parks.

 

Oh, and in honor of the Bills memory you use in your sig, I think from now on when I am headed to the bathroom I will say I am going "to fire [a] Hank Bullough." Whaddaya think?

 

+1

[metzelaars_lives]

It's like, how much more black could this be? and the answer is none. None more black.

 

David, Smell the Glove is here.

[Doc]

You're being disingenuous. Despite the fact that Ralph was doing well at the time and the fact that the new CBA promised 5 times more financial aid to low revenue teams than any previous agreement, he was predicting finacial difficulty.

 

e.g., USA at the time:

Wait, "making no promises" is "predicting fina[n]cial difficulty?"

[Mr. WEO]

Wait, "making no promises" is "predicting fina[n]cial difficulty?"

Oh come on, doc--what do you think he's getting at by trotting out the specter of moving the team? Why did he assemble that dream team of NY politicos? To let everyone know how fat his account is getting in his waning years? He's not telling everyone that he thinks he will have financial difficulty with the CBA?

 

Are you really pretending to not understand what he meant by this statement? Very lame.