"Build Through The Draft" is a salary cap strategy

[PDaDdy]

I think we're talking about different things entirely.

 

I mentioned them, not as examples of why not to explore free agency to improve the team. Indeed, I think not bringing in experienced veterans to help coach up the youngsters is misguided. On the other hand, our new coach had been out of the NFL for a while and his last (only) stint as a head coach with the Cowboys was a looooong time ago. It's unclear where veterans that know him and his approach would come from or if they exist at all... but that is another story.

 

I mentioned Dockery and Walker as a point from the player's perspective. Free agency is a two-way street. In order to sign free agents, you have to be an attractive destination to some degree. Last year, the Bills completely dismantled their OL for money reasons. Peters was a Pro Bowler and they played hard ball with him (Wahoo! School him, Russ! Save Ralph's money! Yes!). So there is an example of a kid that played above his contract and he was shipped out. Dockery didn't play up to his contract, so the Bills dumped him rather than pay him a roster bonus. They asked Walker to play a position that he wasn't capable of playing and when they discovered he couldn't do it, they dumped him as well. Now, if you saw all that and were an OL in the NFLPA, would you be chomping at the bit to move your family to Buffalo for an extra nickel? Not me. I'd take a little less to play with an organization that seemed to have a clue and would put me in the best position to succeed.

 

Amen Brother.

[PDaDdy]

Really? They keep 'em?

 

Like the Steelers kept Jason Gildon and Joey Porter and Kevin Greene and Rod Woodson and Bryant McFadden? Like that? Go back through the years and you'll find dozens of FAs they let go when they became too expensive, guys that their fanbase watched leave with horror. And yet, there was always some guy they had drafted two years ago ready to step in.

 

Like the Colts kept Marshall freaking Faulk and Edgerrin James?

 

Like the Pats` kept Deion Branch and Ty Law and Richard Seymour and Cassel and like they appear ready to keep Mankins?

 

There's always someone to fill in, though since Dimitroff and Pioli left, maybe not so much in New England*, heh heh heh.

 

Those teams are built on making tough decision and letting big-salaried guys go while, and this is the key, keeping a steady stream of good young guys coming in and if possible, learning for a year or two behind their better-known teammates.

 

Come on man. What you failed to mention is that they kept those players for longer periods of time AND didn't let them go until they had already developed someone that could come in an take their place without skipping a beat. Many of those examples were traded away for something in return as well. The Bills don't always get screwed on that one but more often than not.

[PDaDdy]

I'm sorry, but this is a really stupid thread. You build through the draft and supplement through free agency. Your points are all conjecture while TheBandit27, SJBF, and Thurman#1 bring up legitimate counterpoints that shoot down your notion of building through free agency (ask Daniel Snyder how that's been working). When PDaddy is your only ally, you should know you're in trouble.

 

I wondered when you would crawl out form under your rock. As usual you judge a post by the messenger not the message. Let it go buddy. Still sore from the last verbal beat down you got? LOL.

 

Building through the draft when you resign your star players and supplement them with quality free agents IS a great way to build a team. Continually restocking the same positions over and over because you don't want to pay market value for the talent you developed and bringing in lower budget free agents that you over pay IS NOT!!

 

You should take a minute to read what someone has to say instead of skimming and assuming you disagree because the most important thing to you is the name of the poster.

[HT02]

I couldn't agree more! The bigger issue for me is that the Bills may only short time remaining in Buffalo, if new ownership (and that could happen at any time now) decides to move the Bills our "patience" will be rewarded in LA. bull **** win now it's been 10 years since we've seen a playoff game, give Buffalo the championship contender it deserves now. I don't want to be like the Quebec Nordique fans who watch their patience turn into a championship in Denver.

 

Win now Ralph, the Bills are one of the most profitable teams in the NFL, spend a little Ralphie you can't take it with you.

 

I keep hearing around here that the Bills have finally chosen to go in the right direction this offseason of "Building Through the Draft." versus signing expensive free agents and veterans, and that as a result we need to be patient because the results will pan out next year or the following year.

 

I'm calling B.S. on this notion.

 

The concept of "Building Through the Draft" is a SALARY CAP approach to running a team. It is financial, not systemic. It is based on the notion that all teams have the same amount of money to spend each year, and so the most efficient use of that money is to draft quality young players and lock them up via rookie deals, essentially guaranteeing you cheap, productive labor and freeing up more of your resources to add additional pieces to the puzzle.

 

However, there is no salary cap any longer, and it may never return. There certainly was no cap this offseason, so if ever there were an opportunity to "catch up," i.e., spend some more money than you normally would in free agency in an effort to right the ship, this was the offseason to do it. The Bills didn't take that approach. Perhaps they didn't like what was out there - yes, that's a possiblity. I don't concur with that thinking, because again, I think it's basically a financial concept. There were players out there. The Bills may not have liked the "value" they were getting in return for what it would have cost to acquire them - but again, this was the year to spend more. The notion of value changes drastically when you remove a salary cap.

 

Now, I recognize that all teams need to use an "internal" cap in order to remain financially viable. But here again I take issue with the notion that "Building Through the Draft" is the only prudent approach. Do we know what Ralph's finances look like? What his lease payments are? His debt payments? His PROFITS? We don't. And without that information, we have no idea if Ralph is pocketing plenty of money each year that coudl be used to invest in better players, coaches, and facilities. And free agent players, not just forced, cheap labor from the college ranks.

 

Just presenting the counter-point here, would like to get some discussion going. Why does everyone naturally assume that "Building Through the Draft" makes sense any longer?

[PDaDdy]

When was the Bengals last Super Bowl title? The Fins? Not since they became big FA buyers, that's for sure.

 

And Pennington, Ricky Williams, and Cameron Wake weren't high-priced pickups. They were fill-ins. Marshall definitely is a high-priced guy. As was Joey Porter, who is now on another team. That's not a whole lot of high-priced guys. We'll see how it works out for them.

 

The Bills have picked up mid-level and low-level FAs too, and show no sign of stopping. They will fill in the holes with those guys, but not in large numbers.

 

Over looked in your point is that those teams have been a better team than the Bills!!!! Soooo given none of the above have won a super bowl including the Bills, whose strategy is better relative to the others?

[BillsPhan]

Whatever. You can't make players play for you if they don't want to. The NFL frowns on signing players at gunpoint or taking families hostage. And the kind of players you can just buy with crazy money are not winners (See: A. Haynesworth) When you are at rock bottom you have to start somewhere, and the draft is where you start.

 

PTR

 

Promo, Promo, Promo. "The kind of players you can just buy with crazy money are not winners." You site Haynesworth as your prime example. Please tell that to the Jets right about now, as the best CB in football, certainly everyone's opinion as a winner player who helped his Jets become major winners last season, holds out for "crazy money."

[Red]

Maybe not top guys but Buffalo has been a very generous place if you are an overpriced mediocrity. We are pretty good at attracting those guys. I would rather pay a guy who can play 20% more than

he is worth than to a pay a guy who can't play half as much.

 

In the end, you have to have personnel people with a knack for finding talent and a little luck. We have had neither for a long, long time.

 

Thank you!

 

We finally shed ourselves of major dead weight in John Guy, who was responsible for such debacles as Robert Royal, Larry Tripplett, Derrick Dockery, Langston Walker, the (thankfully) failed trade for Darwin Walker (he's doing well in the league now, too), and others.

 

I don't know what Guy's role may have been in the dismissals of Pat Williams, Antoine Winfield, and London Fletcher, but I would not be surprised if he had input.

 

Do we even need to get started on the track record of Tom Modrak? I really don't know how this guy continues to be employed. This week, one of the few gems drafted that actually blossomed in the desert that is Modrak's tenure at OBD, retired in Aaron Schobel. The draft is where you get fresh infusions of talent. That is where the core of your team comes from. You build from the draft. That is why a 'rebuilding' takes time. It's a good 3-5 years before those draft picks start to develop to see the field.

 

The issue with the Bills is that Modrak is so bad at his job, that over his time we have had how many 1st round draft picks deliver that are still with the team? 3? 3 in 10 years? Wood, Lynch, and Evans. Lynch may not last too much longer with the emergence of Simpson and Bell. That would be 2 in 10 years. Nate Clements is no longer with the team, and Schobel retired. The Patriots, Colts, etc would NOT be successful if this is how they drafted every year.

 

Look at our draft picks between the years 2000-2005. We had something like 50 picks. Now with the retirement of Schobel, something like 4 of those players are still w/the team. 4. Maybe its me, but out of 50 picks, only 4 are still with you 5 years later? Those are the role players, depth players, and rugged starters that should be leading the team right now.

 

So, yes, John Guy sucked. But Modrak is even worse. We have struck out on free agents, and have really been terrible in terms of infusing this team w/talented youth that will eventually lead the team in the future.

 

Modrak must go. How many drafts will we have to go through before this is done? With the exception of E. Wood, last years draft is not looking any better.

[Red]

Promo, Promo, Promo. "The kind of players you can just buy with crazy money are not winners." You site Haynesworth as your prime example. Please tell that to the Jets right about now, as the best CB in football, certainly everyone's opinion as a winner player who helped his Jets become major winners last season, holds out for "crazy money."

 

I will attempt to answer, if I may.

 

1 player does not team make.

 

Sorry for the Master Yoda there, but c'mon! How does holding out for crazy money demonstrate anything? And they have not played a down of real football yet, either.

 

What Promo, IMO, is speaking of is that you can't buy a team and give reckless second thoughts to drafting quality football players.

 

I've lived in DC for the past 5+ years. I believe that up until the past offseason, the 'Skins were mirror images of the Bills. The exception was that 1 (The Skins) had an owner that liked to throw money at players with abandon. Their record this past decade showed how successful that was. The Bills have an owner who likes to nickel-and-dime his way to a team. The record shows that doesn't work, either. Snyder was willing (and did) to throw money at every position, because the player had a name and a reputation. Trouble was, once these collection of financial succubus' came together, there was no longer one iota of an actual team.

 

Money does not equate success.

[Red]

I wondered when you would crawl out form under your rock. As usual you judge a post by the messenger not the message. Let it go buddy. Still sore from the last verbal beat down you got? LOL.

 

Building through the draft when you resign your star players and supplement them with quality free agents IS a great way to build a team. Continually restocking the same positions over and over because you don't want to pay market value for the talent you developed and bringing in lower budget free agents that you over pay IS NOT!!

 

You should take a minute to read what someone has to say instead of skimming and assuming you disagree because the most important thing to you is the name of the poster.

 

Besides the poor choices, this is ultimately what has happened to our Bills.

 

Because Guy and Modrak (who is somehow still employed at OBD) suck so bad, we are not replacing those players with quality players. I still argue that losing players like Antoine Winfield, Pat Williams, and London Fletcher set the team back atleast 5 years. With the possible exception of Winfield, we have never replaced these players. And clearly, based on the impact that they still have on the field, it was a series of huge mistakes.

 

Allowing those players to seek employment elsewhere created vacuums of lost experience and ability, while forcing the team to take 3 major steps backward while looking for their replacement. Case in point: When was Pat Williams let go? We still have not found an adequate, space-eating, talented DT/ NT that can play that position. We still don't have that fiery, sideline-sideline, tough LB like Fletcher. And we still don't have that less-than-200 lb CB who comes up and clobbers RB's twice his size like Winfield.

 

I think the Patriots were a great example of this (note the word WERE, their train is starting to derail). No player was ever jettisoned unless somebody equally as good was waiting in the wings. Ty Law trying to hold the team hostage, well...the Pats had squeezed most of his effectiveness out of him, and Randall Gay, etc were ready to go.

 

The Bills have allowed quality free agents to walk, for nothing in return, and with nothing to replace them with. That might work at 1 position, but not 12. Will Wolford leaving for Pittsburgh, we've got #1 pick John Fina. Losing Richter to retirement, we've got Ruben Brown. We lose London Fletcher, and we replaced him with....who?

[BillsPhan]

I will attempt to answer, if I may.

 

1 player does not team make.

 

Sorry for the Master Yoda there, but c'mon! How does holding out for crazy money demonstrate anything? And they have not played a down of real football yet, either.

 

What Promo, IMO, is speaking of is that you can't buy a team and give reckless second thoughts to drafting quality football players.

 

I've lived in DC for the past 5+ years. I believe that up until the past offseason, the 'Skins were mirror images of the Bills. The exception was that 1 (The Skins) had an owner that liked to throw money at players with abandon. Their record this past decade showed how successful that was. The Bills have an owner who likes to nickel-and-dime his way to a team. The record shows that doesn't work, either. Snyder was willing (and did) to throw money at every position, because the player had a name and a reputation. Trouble was, once these collection of financial succubus' came together, there was no longer one iota of an actual team.

 

Money does not equate success.

 

Thank you for answering for Promo Yoda, but your answer does not address my point about Revis at all. Revis is not just another player with a "name and a reputation." He is, in just about everyone's opinion around the NFL, the best shut down CB in football in the very prime of his career. Of course he deserves to be paid at least among the top 5 corners in football, and it is not his fault he is holding out under a contract. Athletes have only been doing that in every sport for about 30 years now.

 

So your point about throwing good money at bad players makes no sense at all regarding Revis. And then please take a look at the money Peppers got paid from Chicago, and yet Peppers is thought to be worth every cent, unless he tanks like Haynesworth has. My point was in agreement with your original thread. You are 100% right that Wilson has decided to stop spending enough money on UFA's, as a policy, to compete overall in today's NFL. That might have changed if Shannahan would have accepted Wilson's offer to take over the Bills. Or, perhaps Shannahan refused the offer because Wilson told him about his "internal budget". Who knows?

[stuckincincy]

Revis is not just another player with a "name and a reputation." He is, in just about everyone's opinion around the NFL, the best shut down CB in football in the very prime of his career.

 

You forgot to mention the refs, who let him interfere to his heart's content.

[Sisyphean Bills]

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't keep picking up FAs to fill in. We will. But we'll bring in high-ticket guys only very rarely. Same as Pittsburgh, the Pats*, and the Colts, the most successful teams of the last ten years.

That's kind of an interesting list actually, as I see these 3 teams as having somewhat different approaches.

 

The Patriots are a big market team and actually pretty aggressive in turning over their roster. They build through the draft, are very active in trading, in the mix for big-name free agents, and sign a fair number of B-list free agents that they seem to always get more out of than other teams.

 

Pittsburgh is a small market team that leans very heavily on the draft. As far as free agents, they just don't go there very often. Harrison was a scrap heap project that worked. Flozell was an atypical pickup to help their OL which has regressed recently. Then they have picked up a few veteran QBs over the years: Batch, Leftwich, Maddox to name a few.

 

The Colts under Polian are another small market team that leans almost exclusively on the draft. They are like Pittsburgh, but maybe a touch more extreme. In fact, they are so overwhelmingly draft based that it makes one wonder that if they had added a key free agent here or there over the last 5 years or so if they couldn't have put themselves right over the top and totally dominated the NFL winning a fist full of Lombardi Trophies.

[Coach Tuesday]

That's kind of an interesting list actually, as I see these 3 teams as having somewhat different approaches.

 

The Patriots are a big market team and actually pretty aggressive in turning over their roster. They build through the draft, are very active in trading, in the mix for big-name free agents, and sign a fair number of B-list free agents that they seem to always get more out of than other teams.

 

Pittsburgh is a small market team that leans very heavily on the draft. As far as free agents, they just don't go there very often. Harrison was a scrap heap project that worked. Flozell was an atypical pickup to help their OL which has regressed recently. Then they have picked up a few veteran QBs over the years: Batch, Leftwich, Maddox to name a few.

 

The Colts under Polian are another small market team that leans almost exclusively on the draft. They are like Pittsburgh, but maybe a touch more extreme. In fact, they are so overwhelmingly draft based that it makes one wonder that if they had added a key free agent here or there over the last 5 years or so if they couldn't have put themselves right over the top and totally dominated the NFL winning a fist full of Lombardi Trophies.

 

To put it another way perhaps, the Patriots don't "build through the draft." They "replace through the draft" on a consistent basis. It IS a different philosophy than the Steelers and Colts.

[Red]

Thank you for answering for Promo Yoda, but your answer does not address my point about Revis at all. Revis is not just another player with a "name and a reputation." He is, in just about everyone's opinion around the NFL, the best shut down CB in football in the very prime of his career. Of course he deserves to be paid at least among the top 5 corners in football, and it is not his fault he is holding out under a contract. Athletes have only been doing that in every sport for about 30 years now.

 

So your point about throwing good money at bad players makes no sense at all regarding Revis. And then please take a look at the money Peppers got paid from Chicago, and yet Peppers is thought to be worth every cent, unless he tanks like Haynesworth has. My point was in agreement with your original thread. You are 100% right that Wilson has decided to stop spending enough money on UFA's, as a policy, to compete overall in today's NFL. That might have changed if Shannahan would have accepted Wilson's offer to take over the Bills. Or, perhaps Shannahan refused the offer because Wilson told him about his "internal budget". Who knows?

 

Well, then maybe I don't understand the point or question you are attempting to raise.

 

You mention Revis. Yes, he currently is in the overwhelming majority of expert opinions, the best CB in football. But you also mention Haynesworth. Need I remind you, that when Fat Al's contract was due in Tennessee, he was also the biggest deal arguably in the entire NFL. The prime free agent out there. And if one did not see him as that good, then certainly he was by far the best defensive lineman available at the time. And he got the big bucks. Just like Revis is asking for now.

 

Should he have gotten paid as such? If past performance was an indicator, then yes he should have. Likewise w/Revis.

 

My point is that: 1.) no player is bigger than the team, and 2.) I used an extreme example of Washington, because Snyder has well established himself as someone who throws money at a problem based solely on reputation. Are you going to tell me that that approach has worked for Washington thus far? That getting the biggest salary filled w/bloated former stars is the best approach to team building?

 

I think the record speaks for itself, as even Snyder is not throwing money at the roster anymore.

 

But, as I mentioned at the outset, I may not be exactly sure where you are intending to go with this? Should sports stars be compensated? Sure. Movie stars- who are also in the entertainment business and hardly place their lives on the line with their job- make tens of millions of dollars on 1 film. I don't see an issue w/an athlete being compensated for rare abilities- so long as the market can bare those services.

 

Arguing that free agency is the way to build a team, however, flies in the face of all common sense and reality. Heck, don't take my word for it. Read the words of any NFL GM.

[Red]

To put it another way perhaps, the Patriots don't "build through the draft." They "replace through the draft" on a consistent basis. It IS a different philosophy than the Steelers and Colts.

 

Your point is moot.

 

Any way you slice it, the post destroys your contention that one builds a team through free agency.

 

The Washington Redskins of this past decade should show you the error of that approach.

[Koufax]

I'm calling BS on your BS-calling...

 

Ask yourself two questions: (1) who are the top-notch organizations in today's NFL? and (2) how did they get that way?

 

Answer #1: Indianapolis, New England, San Diego, Pittsburgh, Minnesota, Green Bay, NY Giants

 

Answer #2: By drafting quality players year after year.

 

+1

 

I will see your point and raise you that these teams also tend to draft the best players and not "with the 9th pick, the Buffalo Bills select Bryan Bulaga, Tackle, Iowa, because John Clayton thinks they need one right now".

 

At the end of the first training camp it sometimes is nice to have your need filled by a draft pick, but the winning teams just keep pouring talent in wherever they find it, and patch any holes with free agency.

 

That beats the crap out of "I think we should go OT in the first round, LB in the second, and NT in the third, and then start all three of those guys"

 

As to the original post, no I don't think the draft focus is a salary cap one. It is both a talent one and a "salary" one, not related to the official league mandated restraints, but to the general limited resources restraints that affect every MLB team other than the Yankees.

[Coach Tuesday]

Your point is moot.

 

Any way you slice it, the post destroys your contention that one builds a team through free agency.

 

The Washington Redskins of this past decade should show you the error of that approach.

 

The Patriots have drafted horribly over the past few years.

[Leonidas]

I wondered when you would crawl out form under your rock. As usual you judge a post by the messenger not the message. Let it go buddy. Still sore from the last verbal beat down you got? LOL.

 

Building through the draft when you resign your star players and supplement them with quality free agents IS a great way to build a team. Continually restocking the same positions over and over because you don't want to pay market value for the talent you developed and bringing in lower budget free agents that you over pay IS NOT!!

 

You should take a minute to read what someone has to say instead of skimming and assuming you disagree because the most important thing to you is the name of the poster.

 

You mean the "verbal beatdown" in that last thread where you exposed yourself as an idiot and were called as much by other posters? Oh yeah, still sore as hell from that one.

 

I have to give you credit. Your arguments are all over the map yet you have no qualms arguing your points - no matter how wrong, illogical, or insane they may be - to the nth degree. You say "Building through the draft when you resign your star players and supplement them with quality free agents IS a great way to build a team" which, by all accounts, is not what the OP is saying at all. In fact, that statement I think we all agree with. But it directly contradicts (no surprise there, considering your history here) what the OP is trying to say.

 

And I'm not sure I should even address this, but "judge a post by the messenger?" I've never confronted CT on one of his posts before, so that doesn't really apply. But generally you are on the wrong side of an issue (or at a minimum the wrong side of logic), so it's a pretty fair assessment to say that if you agree, maybe one should re-examine their point of view.

 

 

Modrak must go. How many drafts will we have to go through before this is done? With the exception of E. Wood, last years draft is not looking any better.

 

That's where you lost me. Aside from Maybin, I think we had a great draft last year. Wood, Levitre, Byrd, and Nelson were all great picks IMO. The problem is, we needed to hit on Maybin and we missed. Big.

 

The Patriots have drafted horribly over the past few years.

 

a) That's not true, although people here love to say it. The 2007, outside of Meriweather, was a horrible draft for them. 2008 treated them pretty well with Jerod Mayo, two potential starting CB's, and special teams star Matt Slater in the 7th. 2009 they got a starting LT at the end of the second round along with some potential ballers like Pat Chung, Darius Butler, and Ron Brace. They even got firebug Julian Edelman in the 7th.

b) I think you proved yourself wrong. The Patriots haven't had those amazing drafts like 2005 when they hit on Logan Mankins, Ellis Hobbs, Nick Kazcur, James Sanders, and Matt Cassell in the 7th, but they have also been on the decline not winning a Super Bowl in six years. Coincidence?