mpl6876 Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 I respectfully opine that you, Coach, are the one that missed the point. I asked you to tell me when any team in recent history has gotten good by shelling out tons of money...your response was to date back to the pre-salary-cap era. I understand your point, but a 49ers' or Cowboys' team that has recently won multiple Superbowls shelling out money for Deion Sanders is quite different than a perrenial 7-9 team tossing around money in an attempt to boost their long-term competitive viability. Same goes for a mid-90's Bills' team that still had Superbowl-caliber talent giving money to Bryce Paup. That's not what you're asking this team to do. Your asking them to spend excessively to create an overall winning culture, not to get the one piece that could put them over the top. Again, if you can show me when this approach has ever worked, I'd be very intrigued, but I don't believe it ever has in the NFL. I would say it is somewhat obvious that a today team cannot buy there way into a championship. It has to be done with to name a few: Solid drafting Solid free agency picks including vets with experience who know how to win An organization that is cohesive, organized, and implements solid strategies to winning. Solid coaching Key players at critical positions such as QB, LT, NT, LB, etc... It is a combination of many variables. I do not believe one can say it is all about the draft or all about another key component. The success of a team lies with all of the above.
Coach Tuesday Posted August 17, 2010 Author Posted August 17, 2010 I respectfully opine that you, Coach, are the one that missed the point. I asked you to tell me when any team in recent history has gotten good by shelling out tons of money...your response was to date back to the pre-salary-cap era. I understand your point, but a 49ers' or Cowboys' team that has recently won multiple Superbowls shelling out money for Deion Sanders is quite different than a perrenial 7-9 team tossing around money in an attempt to boost their long-term competitive viability. Same goes for a mid-90's Bills' team that still had Superbowl-caliber talent giving money to Bryce Paup. That's not what you're asking this team to do. Your asking them to spend excessively to create an overall winning culture, not to get the one piece that could put them over the top. Again, if you can show me when this approach has ever worked, I'd be very intrigued, but I don't believe it ever has in the NFL. I would argue that the Bengals have sought out and attracted mid-level free agents, along with the draft, in order to make themselves more competitive. As have the Dolphins, who rebuilt their entire o-line in part through solid free agent acquisitions (also acquired Pennington, Ricky Williams, Brandon Marshall, Cameron Wake, etc.). The Jets, as much as I hope will implode this year, look to have improved greatly through solid free agent spending over the past two offseasons. There are others.
4BillsintheBurgh Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 As pdaddy has mentioned, we need to sign our better draft picks to a second contract in order to stop the bleeding. The players have to be good enough for that, and everyone has to be okay with the money, etc. The main issue is to get the players believing that we are building something here so we don't have to overpay to get them to stay. Hopefully RW, Nix and Whaley will be able to do that or even want to do that.
Sisyphean Bills Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Free agents: The Bills have been worse in identifying talent in free agency than they have been in the draft. (So long John Guy!) When you consider what happened with Dockery and Walker, is it really surprising that free agents might look elsewhere for a more stable opportunity?
Coach Tuesday Posted August 17, 2010 Author Posted August 17, 2010 Free agents: The Bills have been worse in identifying talent in free agency than they have been in the draft. (So long John Guy!) When you consider what happened with Dockery and Walker, is it really surprising that free agents might look elsewhere for a more stable opportunity? The Bills did not need to release Dockery and Walker last year in order to fit under the salary cap. They chose to do so, and to lose considerable, valuable depth along the offensive line, in order to save money. That is, they correctly determined that those players weren't worth their contracts, but then they took the added step of releasing them as a consequence. At their own peril - as the season played out, it became clear that, however bad Dockery and Walker were relative to their contracts, we needed experienced bodies along the offensive line and they were better than what we ended up with once Wood and Butler got hurt. Again, I don't see why people point to Dockery and Walker and say, "We tried that, it didn't work." It didn't work from a production-relative-to-contract standpoint. But that's RALPH'S PROBLEM, not ours. The Bills weren't, and haven't ever been, right up against the cap.
BuffaloBillsMagic1 Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 I'm calling BS on your BS-calling... Ask yourself two questions: (1) who are the top-notch organizations in today's NFL? and (2) how did they get that way? Answer #1: Indianapolis, New England, San Diego, Pittsburgh, Minnesota, Green Bay, NY Giants Answer #2: By drafting quality players year after year. Not one of those teams was built through free agency. Now, there may be a free agent acquisition here or there (i.e. Randy Moss, Brett Favre), but if you look at those teams, the overwhelming majority of their personnel are draft picks. For example: - Indy's starting OL, QB, RBs, WRs, TEs, DL, LBs...all draft picks - NE's QB, starting OL, RBs, DL, LBs, DBs...all draft picks - SD's QB, starting OL, RBs, WRs, TEs, DL, LBs, DBs...all draft picks - Pit's QB, starting OL, RB, WRs, TEs, DL, LBs, DBs...all draft picks - Min's QB (until Favre comes back), staring OL, RB, WRs (assuming Harvin starts over Berrian opposite Rice), DL (save Jared Allen), LBs...all draft picks I could keep going, but I think I've made my point. Great organizations become great by building through the draft, which is what Buffalo is trying to do. Will they do it well enough to become great? Who knows? I personally have my doubts. Now, if you disagree with that, I'd love to see an example of an organization that has created and sustained long-term NFL success in any way other than drafting well and not blowing money on free agents, I'd love to hear it. Until then, I call BS on your BS-calling... What about New Orleans?
Green Lightning Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 And again, I'm asking, Why is that? Wouldn't an equally compelling philosophy this offseason have been, Acquire as many mid-range free agents as possible to fill the numerous holes on this roster, while we don't have a salary cap in place? All I'm doing is throwing out an alternative to the mantra we've been hearing over and over again from OBD and from many of the posters on this Board. I think it's a valid point, at least as a discussion point. Yet some folks' world views are so fragile that they cannot tolerate the mere thought that the Bills are pointing (once again) in the complete wrong direction. In a word - NO. P*ssing money away on expensive FA's is a fools way to build a team - at least IMHO.
mpl6876 Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 In a word - NO. P*ssing money away on expensive FA's is a fools way to build a team - at least IMHO. Really, I guess you wouldn't want to get Peyton Manning if he couldn't come to a salary agreement with the Colts? Wonder how that Brett Farve pick up worked out for the Vikings? Jared Allen too? I would say picking up the right fit for your team free agent is a solid way to successfully improve your teams chances. It is done every year and it will continually be done. This years examples are Brando Marshall, Antwan Bolden, LT, Jamal Brown, Donavan Mcnabb, Antonio Bryant, Julius Peppers, Karlos Dansby, ...
Sisyphean Bills Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 The Bills did not need to release Dockery and Walker last year in order to fit under the salary cap. They chose to do so, and to lose considerable, valuable depth along the offensive line, in order to save money. That is, they correctly determined that those players weren't worth their contracts, but then they took the added step of releasing them as a consequence. At their own peril - as the season played out, it became clear that, however bad Dockery and Walker were relative to their contracts, we needed experienced bodies along the offensive line and they were better than what we ended up with once Wood and Butler got hurt. Again, I don't see why people point to Dockery and Walker and say, "We tried that, it didn't work." It didn't work from a production-relative-to-contract standpoint. But that's RALPH'S PROBLEM, not ours. The Bills weren't, and haven't ever been, right up against the cap. I think we're talking about different things entirely. I mentioned them, not as examples of why not to explore free agency to improve the team. Indeed, I think not bringing in experienced veterans to help coach up the youngsters is misguided. On the other hand, our new coach had been out of the NFL for a while and his last (only) stint as a head coach with the Cowboys was a looooong time ago. It's unclear where veterans that know him and his approach would come from or if they exist at all... but that is another story. I mentioned Dockery and Walker as a point from the player's perspective. Free agency is a two-way street. In order to sign free agents, you have to be an attractive destination to some degree. Last year, the Bills completely dismantled their OL for money reasons. Peters was a Pro Bowler and they played hard ball with him (Wahoo! School him, Russ! Save Ralph's money! Yes!). So there is an example of a kid that played above his contract and he was shipped out. Dockery didn't play up to his contract, so the Bills dumped him rather than pay him a roster bonus. They asked Walker to play a position that he wasn't capable of playing and when they discovered he couldn't do it, they dumped him as well. Now, if you saw all that and were an OL in the NFLPA, would you be chomping at the bit to move your family to Buffalo for an extra nickel? Not me. I'd take a little less to play with an organization that seemed to have a clue and would put me in the best position to succeed.
coldstorage5 Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 I keep hearing around here that the Bills have finally chosen to go in the right direction this offseason of "Building Through the Draft." versus signing expensive free agents and veterans, and that as a result we need to be patient because the results will pan out next year or the following year. I'm calling B.S. on this notion. The concept of "Building Through the Draft" is a SALARY CAP approach to running a team. It is financial, not systemic. It is based on the notion that all teams have the same amount of money to spend each year, and so the most efficient use of that money is to draft quality young players and lock them up via rookie deals, essentially guaranteeing you cheap, productive labor and freeing up more of your resources to add additional pieces to the puzzle. However, there is no salary cap any longer, and it may never return. There certainly was no cap this offseason, so if ever there were an opportunity to "catch up," i.e., spend some more money than you normally would in free agency in an effort to right the ship, this was the offseason to do it. The Bills didn't take that approach. Perhaps they didn't like what was out there - yes, that's a possiblity. I don't concur with that thinking, because again, I think it's basically a financial concept. There were players out there. The Bills may not have liked the "value" they were getting in return for what it would have cost to acquire them - but again, this was the year to spend more. The notion of value changes drastically when you remove a salary cap. Now, I recognize that all teams need to use an "internal" cap in order to remain financially viable. But here again I take issue with the notion that "Building Through the Draft" is the only prudent approach. Do we know what Ralph's finances look like? What his lease payments are? His debt payments? His PROFITS? We don't. And without that information, we have no idea if Ralph is pocketing plenty of money each year that coudl be used to invest in better players, coaches, and facilities. And free agent players, not just forced, cheap labor from the college ranks. Just presenting the counter-point here, would like to get some discussion going. Why does everyone naturally assume that "Building Through the Draft" makes sense any longer? All Good teams Build through the draft,...Name a team that is good,..... I will list the core of drafted players,....Then They suplement home grown talent with FA's.. We have drafted Horribly, That why we are 7-9, every yr
Coach Tuesday Posted August 17, 2010 Author Posted August 17, 2010 I think we're talking about different things entirely. I mentioned them, not as examples of why not to explore free agency to improve the team. Indeed, I think not bringing in talented veterans to help coach up the youngsters is misguided. On the other hand, our new coach had been out of the NFL for a while and his last (only) stint as a head coach with the Cowboys was a looooong time ago. It's unclear where veterans that know him and his approach would come from or if they exist at all... but that is another story. I mentioned Dockery and Walker as a point from the player's perspective. Free agency is a two-way street. In order to sign free agents, you have to be an attractive destination to some degree. Last year, the Bills completely dismantled their OL for money reasons. Peters was a Pro Bowler and they played hard ball with him (Wahoo! School him Russ!). So there is an example of a kid that played above his contract and he was shipped out. Dockery didn't play up to his contract, so the Bills dumped him rather than pay him a roster bonus. They asked Walker to play a position that he wasn't capable of playing and when they discovered he couldn't do it, they dumped him as well. Now, if you saw all that and were an OL in the NFLPA, would you be chomping at the bit to move your family to Buffalo for an extra nickel? Well, that is a different point, and a fair one. Perhaps the Bills are "Building Through the Draft" not by financial necessity, but by practical necessity, in that they can't convince free agents to come here. I think that's a bit cynical, but it may be true. I'm not there yet though. I think if you pay them and convince them that you're turning the program around, they'll come.
Coach Tuesday Posted August 17, 2010 Author Posted August 17, 2010 All Good teams Build through the draft,...Name a team that is good,..... I will list the core of drafted players,....Then They suplement home grown talent with FA's.. We have drafted Horribly, That why we are 7-9, every yr See above - Minnesota built its core through free agency and trades (Favre, Allen, Pat Williams, Hutchinson, Winfield). Peterson and Kevin Williams are the exception.
Sisyphean Bills Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Well, that is a different point, and a fair one. Perhaps the Bills are "Building Through the Draft" not by financial necessity, but by practical necessity, in that they can't convince free agents to come here. I think that's a bit cynical, but it may be true. I'm not there yet though. I think if you pay them and convince them that you're turning the program around, they'll come. I think that they could pay 'em and get some to come as well. I just don't think it is a priority. Keeping a nice cash flow profile seems to be more important (cynical, yes, but after what they did last year, it's not out of the question).
Thurman#1 Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 They fill in the gaps with low to medium guys while KEEPING their core players from the draft. Really? They keep 'em? Like the Steelers kept Jason Gildon and Joey Porter and Kevin Greene and Rod Woodson and Bryant McFadden? Like that? Go back through the years and you'll find dozens of FAs they let go when they became too expensive, guys that their fanbase watched leave with horror. And yet, there was always some guy they had drafted two years ago ready to step in. Like the Colts kept Marshall freaking Faulk and Edgerrin James? Like the Pats` kept Deion Branch and Ty Law and Richard Seymour and Cassel and like they appear ready to keep Mankins? There's always someone to fill in, though since Dimitroff and Pioli left, maybe not so much in New England*, heh heh heh. Those teams are built on making tough decision and letting big-salaried guys go while, and this is the key, keeping a steady stream of good young guys coming in and if possible, learning for a year or two behind their better-known teammates.
Leonidas Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 I'm sorry, but this is a really stupid thread. You build through the draft and supplement through free agency. Your points are all conjecture while TheBandit27, SJBF, and Thurman#1 bring up legitimate counterpoints that shoot down your notion of building through free agency (ask Daniel Snyder how that's been working). When PDaddy is your only ally, you should know you're in trouble.
Thurman#1 Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 I would argue that the Bengals have sought out and attracted mid-level free agents, along with the draft, in order to make themselves more competitive. As have the Dolphins, who rebuilt their entire o-line in part through solid free agent acquisitions (also acquired Pennington, Ricky Williams, Brandon Marshall, Cameron Wake, etc.). The Jets, as much as I hope will implode this year, look to have improved greatly through solid free agent spending over the past two offseasons. There are others. When was the Bengals last Super Bowl title? The Fins? Not since they became big FA buyers, that's for sure. And Pennington, Ricky Williams, and Cameron Wake weren't high-priced pickups. They were fill-ins. Marshall definitely is a high-priced guy. As was Joey Porter, who is now on another team. That's not a whole lot of high-priced guys. We'll see how it works out for them. The Bills have picked up mid-level and low-level FAs too, and show no sign of stopping. They will fill in the holes with those guys, but not in large numbers.
Thurman#1 Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 The Bills did not need to release Dockery and Walker last year in order to fit under the salary cap. They chose to do so, and to lose considerable, valuable depth along the offensive line, in order to save money. That is, they correctly determined that those players weren't worth their contracts, but then they took the added step of releasing them as a consequence. At their own peril - as the season played out, it became clear that, however bad Dockery and Walker were relative to their contracts, we needed experienced bodies along the offensive line and they were better than what we ended up with once Wood and Butler got hurt. Again, I don't see why people point to Dockery and Walker and say, "We tried that, it didn't work." It didn't work from a production-relative-to-contract standpoint. But that's RALPH'S PROBLEM, not ours. The Bills weren't, and haven't ever been, right up against the cap. Dockery didn't work in his second year in Buffalo on any basis, financial or talent. He was awful. And Walker wasn't going to be useful in a no-huddle system. Not unless they wanted to take him out for two-thirds of the game. Those two moves, in fact, didn't work out at all, though mismanagement of personnel (Walker at LT? Really? A no-huddle offense on a horribly inexperienced team will make all the difference? Really?) was certainly a part of that. Both were absolute failures. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't keep picking up FAs to fill in. We will. But we'll bring in high-ticket guys only very rarely. Same as Pittsburgh, the Pats*, and the Colts, the most successful teams of the last ten years.
Coach Tuesday Posted August 18, 2010 Author Posted August 18, 2010 I'm sorry, but this is a really stupid thread. You build through the draft and supplement through free agency. Your points are all conjecture while TheBandit27, SJBF, and Thurman#1 bring up legitimate counterpoints that shoot down your notion of building through free agency (ask Daniel Snyder how that's been working). When PDaddy is your only ally, you should know you're in trouble. And you, as usual, contribute nothing other than your sour, abrasive, rotting personality...
Leonidas Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 And you, as usual, contribute nothing other than your sour, abrasive, rotting personality... Wah wahhhh. Doesn't change the fact that you come off as not just bitter in this post, but moronic for thinking you can build a an NFL franchise purely through free agency. Let me know how that works out. You still haven't refuted any of the posters I mentioned and you haven't named one successful franchise that's done it poorly. Would you like me to show you how wrong you are or have the aforementioned posters handed you your ass enough for one day??
mpl6876 Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 Wah wahhhh. Doesn't change the fact that you come off as not just bitter in this post, but moronic for thinking you can build a an NFL franchise purely through free agency. Let me know how that works out. You still haven't refuted any of the posters I mentioned and you haven't named one successful franchise that's done it poorly. Would you like me to show you how wrong you are or have the aforementioned posters handed you your ass enough for one day?? Whether your wrong or right you don't have to be such a "rude prude."
Recommended Posts