Lost Opportunities

[OldTimer1960]

I am the first to acknowledge that it isn't reasonable to expect every first round draft choice to blossom into

a star player. It isn't just the Bills, every team has misses early. However, the Bills have had several big

misses in the recent past that help explain why the team is re-building continuously.

 

I know that it is early in camp and we can hope that the following guys start to live up to their draft

status, but for most of them, they've been around long enough that I expect we've seen their best.

 

I know that I could go back further, but we don't need to:

 

1. John McCargo - taken late in round 1 has shown an occasional flash of quickness to knife into the

backfield, but he' played very little and is in danger of not making the team at all this year.

 

2. Donte Whitner - 8th overall pick should be at least a good starter, if not an impact player. Whitner

is struggling to even be a starter on a weak defense. He hasn't been as bad as some other players

chosen in the same neighborhood (Jason Allen, Ernie Sims, Matt Leinart), but they need more from him

than to be "competing" to be the starter with the likes of Bryan Scott and ex-WR George Wilson.

 

3. Marshawn Lynch - there were red-flags on this guy's character coming into the draft, but the Bills'

ignored them and he's been in trouble more than he's be productive. He has some talent, but does

he want to play enough? Likely, 3rd back in the rotation - not good enough for as high as he was picked.

In fairness to the Bills, there were a lot of flops in that first round, but super-star CB Darrelle Revis was

selected 2 picks after Lynch.

 

4. Leodis McKelvin - I think he is the most likely of this group to improve his production, but the Bills need

more out of a high number 1 pick than to be a nickel back. They could have had a great LT, if they had

chosen Ryan Clady - ouch!

 

5. Aaron Maybin - Maybin has shown nothing so far and now he is running with the 2nd team defense even

though a job is wide open with the loss of Schobel and he's behind Chris Kelsay and Jeff(?) freaking Torbor?

[JohnC]

I am the first to acknowledge that it isn't reasonable to expect every first round draft choice to blossom into

a star player. It isn't just the Bills, every team has misses early. However, the Bills have had several big

misses in the recent past that help explain why the team is re-building continuously.

 

I know that it is early in camp and we can hope that the following guys start to live up to their draft

status, but for most of them, they've been around long enough that I expect we've seen their best.

 

I know that I could go back further, but we don't need to:

 

1. John McCargo - taken late in round 1 has shown an occasional flash of quickness to knife into the

backfield, but he' played very little and is in danger of not making the team at all this year.

 

2. Donte Whitner - 8th overall pick should be at least a good starter, if not an impact player. Whitner

is struggling to even be a starter on a weak defense. He hasn't been as bad as some other players

chosen in the same neighborhood (Jason Allen, Ernie Sims, Matt Leinart), but they need more from him

than to be "competing" to be the starter with the likes of Bryan Scott and ex-WR George Wilson.

 

3. Marshawn Lynch - there were red-flags on this guy's character coming into the draft, but the Bills'

ignored them and he's been in trouble more than he's be productive. He has some talent, but does

he want to play enough? Likely, 3rd back in the rotation - not good enough for as high as he was picked.

In fairness to the Bills, there were a lot of flops in that first round, but super-star CB Darrelle Revis was

selected 2 picks after Lynch.

 

4. Leodis McKelvin - I think he is the most likely of this group to improve his production, but the Bills need

more out of a high number 1 pick than to be a nickel back. They could have had a great LT, if they had

chosen Ryan Clady - ouch!

 

5. Aaron Maybin - Maybin has shown nothing so far and now he is running with the 2nd team defense even

though a job is wide open with the loss of Schobel and he's behind Chris Kelsay and Jeff(?) freaking Torbor?

 

Our scouting department for the past 10 years is basically still intact. Someone of importance within the organization must be satisfied with the results. Whatever happened to the concept of accountability?

 

Sometimes draft evaluators give to much weight on judging a draft based mostly on the performances of the first round picks. That is a very short sighted. Our second, third and back end picks have not been very productive either. When you accept the status quo you keep maintaining the status quo. That shouldn't be surprising.

[RI Bills Fan]

It always amazes me that none of you geniuses are currently employed by an NFL Team.

 

You'd think that some smart GM would read your insightful comments and hire you guys on the spot.

[Lurker]

I know that it is early in camp

Thanks, now I won't have to pay attention to see if past performace is any guarantee of future results...

[ieatcrayonz]

5. Aaron Maybin - Maybin has shown nothing so far and now he is running with the 2nd team defense even

though a job is wide open with the loss of Schobel and he's behind Chris Kelsay and Jeff(?) freaking Torbor?

I think you're being overly critical of Maybinot. He has been beaten out by Reggie Torbor, not Jeff. Jeff used to manage the Cleveland Indians. He is probably 70 now, and although I have as much or more respect for old people than anyone, I think Jeff would have only about a 25% chance of beating the useless Maybinot for a job as a linebacker.

 

Maybinot is younger and faster than J. Torbor. They are probabaly about equally strong. Torbor's advantages are fewer locker room distractions than the tweeting tweener.

[WVUFootball29]

Who the heck is Jeff Torbor?

 

I remember Jeff Torborg...hell of a catcher

[Bob in STL]

I am the first to acknowledge that it isn't reasonable to expect every first round draft choice to blossom into

a star player. It isn't just the Bills, every team has misses early. However, the Bills have had several big

misses in the recent past that help explain why the team is re-building continuously.

 

I know that it is early in camp and we can hope that the following guys start to live up to their draft

status, but for most of them, they've been around long enough that I expect we've seen their best.

 

I know that I could go back further, but we don't need to:

 

1. John McCargo - taken late in round 1 has shown an occasional flash of quickness to knife into the

backfield, but he' played very little and is in danger of not making the team at all this year.

 

2. Donte Whitner - 8th overall pick should be at least a good starter, if not an impact player. Whitner

is struggling to even be a starter on a weak defense. He hasn't been as bad as some other players

chosen in the same neighborhood (Jason Allen, Ernie Sims, Matt Leinart), but they need more from him

than to be "competing" to be the starter with the likes of Bryan Scott and ex-WR George Wilson.

 

3. Marshawn Lynch - there were red-flags on this guy's character coming into the draft, but the Bills'

ignored them and he's been in trouble more than he's be productive. He has some talent, but does

he want to play enough? Likely, 3rd back in the rotation - not good enough for as high as he was picked.

In fairness to the Bills, there were a lot of flops in that first round, but super-star CB Darrelle Revis was

selected 2 picks after Lynch.

 

4. Leodis McKelvin - I think he is the most likely of this group to improve his production, but the Bills need

more out of a high number 1 pick than to be a nickel back. They could have had a great LT, if they had

chosen Ryan Clady - ouch!

 

5. Aaron Maybin - Maybin has shown nothing so far and now he is running with the 2nd team defense even

though a job is wide open with the loss of Schobel and he's behind Chris Kelsay and Jeff(?) freaking Torbor?

 

There are endless posts on this board on recent draft failings and who we should have drafted after the fact. I actually think the first round is a tough round to get right. Everybody wants to draft an impact player but most drafts have only 2 or 3 players in this category per year and they don't always go in the first 10 picks. Free agency turnover puts holes in your roster and forces teams to find instant sucess in round one when it is not likely that you will. Remember the Bills of the early 90's? Most rookies played special teams and sat on the bench for the first season. Times have changed but what has changed to make the draft results any easier to predict? More TV coverage only adds to the hype and overblown expectations.

 

My theory is that the first round is where coaches and owners seem to have more input or lobby the hardest. More hands in the process increases the variability of the results. The best teams over the long haul (NE, Indy, etc) have stable front offices with capable GMs that trust their scouts.

 

Regarding the Bills picks that you site, I still think that Whitner is a very solid starting player that is versatile and can play numerous positions with good skill. I understand that many on this board disagree. McKelvin has shown excellent ability when not injured. The work ethic and character of the other three ( McCargo, Lynch and Maybin) were questionable before we ever picked them. Something to think about is not drafting players that have questionable backgrounds (Lynch), work ethic issues (McCargo), or that lack experience (Maybin).

 

Final thought is that you need to look at the Bills Leadership Team that drafted these players. Brandon, Levy, Modrak, Jauron, and Wilson … Of that group who exactly was in charge? Who decided the path forward? Was there even a plan?

[ieatcrayonz]

Who the heck is Jeff Torbor?

 

I remember Jeff Torborg...hell of a catcher

Your memory is slightly off as Jeff Torbor was that catcher. He later managed the Indians as I mentioned and may be Mets too. He was a good catcher but the OP mixed him up with Reggie who is actually the guy that will send Maybin packing.

[WVUFootball29]

Your memory is slightly off as Jeff Torbor was that catcher. He later managed the Indians as I mentioned and may be Mets too. He was a good catcher but the OP mixed him up with Reggie who is actually the guy that will send Maybin packing.

 

Swing and a miss... http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/torboje01.shtml

[ieatcrayonz]

Swing and a miss... http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/torboje01.shtml

Nice try with the cloaked Peter Pan link but I won't click. And I know more about baseball than you've forgotten.

 

Anyway, you may have watched too much Star Trek if you think his name is Torborg.

[DanInSouthBuffalo]

This is what happens when you draft for absolute need instead of just drafting the best player available to you. Speaks of desperation.

[VADC Bills]

I am the first to acknowledge that it isn't reasonable to expect every first round draft choice to blossom into

a star player. It isn't just the Bills, every team has misses early. However, the Bills have had several big

misses in the recent past that help explain why the team is re-building continuously.

 

I know that it is early in camp and we can hope that the following guys start to live up to their draft

status, but for most of them, they've been around long enough that I expect we've seen their best.

 

I know that I could go back further, but we don't need to:

 

1. John McCargo - taken late in round 1 has shown an occasional flash of quickness to knife into the

backfield, but he' played very little and is in danger of not making the team at all this year.

 

2. Donte Whitner - 8th overall pick should be at least a good starter, if not an impact player. Whitner

is struggling to even be a starter on a weak defense. He hasn't been as bad as some other players

chosen in the same neighborhood (Jason Allen, Ernie Sims, Matt Leinart), but they need more from him

than to be "competing" to be the starter with the likes of Bryan Scott and ex-WR George Wilson.

 

3. Marshawn Lynch - there were red-flags on this guy's character coming into the draft, but the Bills'

ignored them and he's been in trouble more than he's be productive. He has some talent, but does

he want to play enough? Likely, 3rd back in the rotation - not good enough for as high as he was picked.

In fairness to the Bills, there were a lot of flops in that first round, but super-star CB Darrelle Revis was

selected 2 picks after Lynch.

 

4. Leodis McKelvin - I think he is the most likely of this group to improve his production, but the Bills need

more out of a high number 1 pick than to be a nickel back. They could have had a great LT, if they had

chosen Ryan Clady - ouch!

 

5. Aaron Maybin - Maybin has shown nothing so far and now he is running with the 2nd team defense even

though a job is wide open with the loss of Schobel and he's behind Chris Kelsay and Jeff(?) freaking Torbor?

I'm a little more patient than you.

I don't consider Lynch or McKelvin misses. They both have showed that they can be good in this league.

Remember two short years ago Lynch was the only one on this team that played with heart and made the probowl. I don't consider him a bust because I don't like his off field antics. I don't prioritize the character because every SB champion has had people of questionable character.

Whitner should not have been the 8th overall pick but he is solid against the run and a productive player and the safeties are clearly the best unit that we put on the field but you are correct he is not a high impact player but who on our defense is? I lump him in the same category as I do Kelsey, Poz, Williams solid players trying to step up from mediocrity.

Maybin I haven't considered a bust yet. This year will let me know what direction he going in.

McCargo is a bust plus when you consider the fact we gave up a pick to move up to draft him makes it even worse.

[WVUFootball29]

Nice try with the cloaked Peter Pan link but I won't click. And I know more about baseball than you've forgotten.

 

Anyway, you may have watched too much Star Trek if you think his name is Torborg.

 

http://kotaku.com/assets/resources/2007/03...blue-crayon.jpg

[ieatcrayonz]

http://kotaku.com/assets/resources/2007/03...blue-crayon.jpg

I won't click on the Peter Pan stuff no matter how hard you try. It is ok that your baseball knowledge is slightly off. You're not the first one.

 

Anyway, the overall point is that while Reggie Torbor, a career camp fodder player can EASILY beat out Maybinot, it is unlikely that an ex-catcher/manager could. The fact that we have to wonder is disconcerting.

[OldTimer1960]

OK, I got Reggie Torbor's first name wrong. It doesn't make the point any less relevant - Torbor is a midling back-up

caliber guy who has kicked around the league and right now he's running ahead of the 10th overall pick in last year's

draft - the guy who was so good that he didn't have to attend training camp.

 

Now, I DO understand that Mabyin is still very young, he'd only be going into his Senior year this Fall, but he

just has shown so little. I *hope* that he comes along, but I admit I am losing patience with him.

 

I was a tad harsh on McKelvin as he missed most of last year, but #1 picks need to be starters or they are

disappointments. If McKelvin plays nickel and kick returner this year, then he will maybe not be a bust, but

it would certainly be a disappointment for as high as he was picked - kind of like Reggie Bush, part-time

contributor on offense and kick returner.

 

I think if Whitner were a solid starter, then there would be no competition from Bryan Scott or George

Wilson - neither of whom are solid-starter caliber.

 

Regarding Lynch, if the 11th overall pick a few years is running #3 on your RB depth chart, that is a problem.

I too, liked his effort a couple of years ago, but he was awful last year coming back over-weight after his

suspension. Heck, what exactly did he have to do for those 4 weeks except workout. I'm 50 y.o and I work all

day, but I find time to workout daily. Now, I know that the level of workout and NFL player needs to do is far

above what I do, but the point is he had all day and he surely could have found a couple of hours a day to

stay in shape.

 

Again, I very much hope that some or all of these guys get it together and become productive starters. I am

not rooting against them, but the fact that 5 recent #1 draft picks are locked in battles to hopefully crack the

starting lineup (actually, McCargo is in a battle to even make the team) is not a good situation to be in.

[LABills08]

I am the first to acknowledge that it isn't reasonable to expect every first round draft choice to blossom into

a star player. It isn't just the Bills, every team has misses early. However, the Bills have had several big

misses in the recent past that help explain why the team is re-building continuously.

 

I know that it is early in camp and we can hope that the following guys start to live up to their draft

status, but for most of them, they've been around long enough that I expect we've seen their best.

 

I know that I could go back further, but we don't need to:

 

1. John McCargo - taken late in round 1 has shown an occasional flash of quickness to knife into the

backfield, but he' played very little and is in danger of not making the team at all this year.

 

2. Donte Whitner - 8th overall pick should be at least a good starter, if not an impact player. Whitner

is struggling to even be a starter on a weak defense. He hasn't been as bad as some other players

chosen in the same neighborhood (Jason Allen, Ernie Sims, Matt Leinart), but they need more from him

than to be "competing" to be the starter with the likes of Bryan Scott and ex-WR George Wilson.

 

3. Marshawn Lynch - there were red-flags on this guy's character coming into the draft, but the Bills'

ignored them and he's been in trouble more than he's be productive. He has some talent, but does

he want to play enough? Likely, 3rd back in the rotation - not good enough for as high as he was picked.

In fairness to the Bills, there were a lot of flops in that first round, but super-star CB Darrelle Revis was

selected 2 picks after Lynch.

 

4. Leodis McKelvin - I think he is the most likely of this group to improve his production, but the Bills need

more out of a high number 1 pick than to be a nickel back. They could have had a great LT, if they had

chosen Ryan Clady - ouch!

 

5. Aaron Maybin - Maybin has shown nothing so far and now he is running with the 2nd team defense even

though a job is wide open with the loss of Schobel and he's behind Chris Kelsay and Jeff(?) freaking Torbor?

 

 

You should have included JP Losman. Anyways:

 

1- Agreed

 

2- Agreed

 

3- Disagree. Guy has played 3 seasons. 2 out of those 3 seasons have been very strong (behind a terrible offensive line). One season was his rookie season (where he was given votes for rookie of the year, despite losing to Peterson). His second season he made the pro bowl. He had one bad year, it was last year. And, to be fair, he pretty much lost his job to Jackson bc of the suspension. He had SOME chances to win it back. But not many (despite what Bills fans think)

 

4- Ridiculous to put him on the list. he has only played 19 games. And had flashes of brilliance.

 

5- Maybin. Another ridiculous person to put on the list. He's 21, only played 1 season and missed all of TC last year. Sure, Orakpo would have been the better choice, no doubt. But just bc he is playing with the 2nd team defense does not make him a flop. I look to see a strong season from him this year.

 

I would also add that last year's draft produced 5 present or future starters in Nelson, Byrd, Levitre, Wood and Maybin. All of them would be pushing for starting spots on the majority of teams in the NFL. Pretty good scouting there.

 

And by the way, the 2010 draft looks impressive at the moment. Easley, Troup and Carrington all have looked impressive in camp. And even though Spiller has yet to sign, I think we all know what we can expect from him.

 

I will be the first one to go on a rant about how ****ty the Bills drafting has been over the past decade. But, these past two drafts lead me to be pretty optimistic.

 

In fact, I predict breakout years for several supposed "busts". I think a lot of our young talent is going to put it together all at once and surprise some people. We shall see.

[OldTimer1960]

You should have included JP Losman. Anyways:

 

1- Agreed

 

2- Agreed

 

3- Disagree. Guy has played 3 seasons. 2 out of those 3 seasons have been very strong (behind a terrible offensive line). One season was his rookie season (where he was given votes for rookie of the year, despite losing to Peterson). His second season he made the pro bowl. He had one bad year, it was last year. And, to be fair, he pretty much lost his job to Jackson bc of the suspension. He had SOME chances to win it back. But not many (despite what Bills fans think. I don't disagree that he is talented and that he produced in the past, but I think that if he isn't

playing because of his off-field stuff and because he wasn't in good enough shape, that is the same as not being good

enough. As with all these guys, I hope that he turns out great this year and teams with Jackson and Spiller to be

the best RBs in the league.

 

4- Ridiculous to put him on the list. he has only played 19 games. And had flashes of brilliance. I said that he was most likely to be productive, but still if he doesn't beat out Drayton Florence, it will be a disappointment

even if he becomes a Pro-Bowl kick returner and good nickel db.

 

5- Maybin. Another ridiculous person to put on the list. He's 21, only played 1 season and missed all of TC last year. Sure, Orakpo would have been the better choice, no doubt. But just bc he is playing with the 2nd team defense does not make him a flop. I look to see a strong season from him this year. I hope you are right, I really do.

I just don't see it with him. Someone with his physical talent shouldn't be behind Reggie Torbor at any point in camp. I

hope he wasn't a one-year wonder in college - note that he wasn't even going to start his last year in college, but the

guy ahead of him was suspended for drugs. Now, he did take advantage of the opportunity, so good for him. Every quote

I've heard from him sounds like he is a try-hard honest guy, but he needs to be in the starting lineup this year or, at

least, be a big-time pass rushing specialist on 3rd down.

 

I would also add that last year's draft produced 5 present or future starters in Nelson, Byrd, Levitre, Wood and Maybin. All of them would be pushing for starting spots on the majority of teams in the NFL. Pretty good scouting there. Agreed on Byrd, Levitre and Wood. Nelson showed flashes, too, but I think saying he'd be

pushing for a starting spot on the majority of teams in the NFL is short-changing a pretty long list of accomplished NFL

TEs. I have seen nothing from Maybin to suggest he'd be pushing for anything anywhere.

 

And by the way, the 2010 draft looks impressive at the moment. Easley, Troup and Carrington all have looked impressive in camp. And even though Spiller has yet to sign, I think we all know what we can expect from him. Very much hope these camp flashes pan out. They need the help, but it is camp and every year some young

unknown looks good in camp and preseason and is never heard from again.

 

I will be the first one to go on a rant about how ****ty the Bills drafting has been over the past decade. But, these past two drafts lead me to be pretty optimistic. I'm not necessarily arguing that they scouts need to go and last year's draft, Maybin aside for now, does look promising. The blue-collar work-ethic that Wood and Levitre

bring is what this team has needed.

 

In fact, I predict breakout years for several supposed "busts". I think a lot of our young talent is going to put it together all at once and surprise some people. We shall see.

[spartacus]

There are endless posts on this board on recent draft failings and who we should have drafted after the fact. I actually think the first round is a tough round to get right. Everybody wants to draft an impact player but most drafts have only 2 or 3 players in this category per year and they don't always go in the first 10 picks. Free agency turnover puts holes in your roster and forces teams to find instant sucess in round one when it is not likely that you will. Remember the Bills of the early 90's? Most rookies played special teams and sat on the bench for the first season. Times have changed but what has changed to make the draft results any easier to predict?   

 

"times have changed. . ."

 

 

you can say that again.

 

The biggest change is that the Bills have been picking near the top 10 for the last decade with nothing to show for it. Back in the day of Bill Polian, they consistently picked at the end of the first round where the talent was less than with a top  10 pick. 

 

The 2nd point to note, is that the Polian teams actually had Super Bowl quality talent already starting, which forced any rookie to fight for playing time. The current Bills teams have no such glut of talent. In fact, the LB corp was so decimated last year, that they started free agents signed off the street instead of our Penn State stud. There are so many holes on the Bills roster that any drafted player is needed to start by necessity - and still they can't get off the bench.

 

What makes the draft "easier to predict" is employing competent talent evaluators whose job it is to know which players are likely to bust and which are likely to be successful. Then pick the winners and pass on the losers. Unfortunately, the best our part-time work-from-home director of college scouting can do is to make up stories after the fact, that he did not want the busts, but someone else overrode his recommendation. Convenient that these revelations only come to light after the season and after a key mgmt player has been released as the scapegoat. 

 

 

[LABills08]

That is fair. Maybe I was overzealous in saying Maybin and Nelson would be pushing for starting spots on a lot of NFL teams.

 

I'm not a Bills homer who overhypes our prospects. I just think Nelson is a special kid who is going to have a breakout year, so long as the ball is thrown his way. In the right system, Nelson has the chance to catch 40 balls. The question is whether Gailey will pass the ball enough to give a 2nd year guy that many chances. Our young kids never had a chance to get involved under Dick, so it will be interesting to see what Gailey does.

 

As for Maybin, maybe you are right. I just think the 3-4 suits him very well. Remember that Torbor has played the 3-4 before and that could easily be why he is seeing 1st team reps. Maybin is 21, has had 0 TC experience and never has played OLB. There is a steep learning curve. If Edwards thinks that Maybin is holding up the 1st team bc he has more to learn, than I can see why Torbor would be thrown in there in respect to efficiency (remember, Torbor played under Edwards all last season).

There is no way Maybin gets less reps than Torbor once the season comes around. I expect to see Maybin at weakside for the majority of passing plays no matter what. But, I really hope he gets reps against the run. He is not that undersized for a linebacker and should be able to make some plays against the run. Don't forget, the kid is an athlete and he hustles. You can say whatever you want about him, but you can't deny him those basic traits. And so long as a football player has that, you can't criticize him too much. He might might be a pro-bowler, but I think he'll have some big moments.

[macaroni]

This is what happens when you draft for absolute need instead of just drafting the best player available to you. Speaks of desperation.

 

 

I somewhat agree with what you are saying ..... But IMHO ... The Bills have taken drafting the better player available rather than a player we need to a bit of an extreme.

 

point in fact is the 9,000 DBs we (before this season) always seem to draft. Drafting Willis Magahee when we had a capable running back in the fold. Maybin as opposed to Orakpo or Oher.

 

Also just my opinion our problem isn't so much as "missing" on our draft choices, but in doing things without a recovery plan, and we've been doing that for quite some time ..... get rid of Pat Williams and Sam Adams? ... no problem but replace him with who??? get rid of Winfield? ... OK but replace him with who??? Let Greer walk? ... sure but replace him with who??? Get rid of Peters .... no problem but replace him with who??? Get rid of Langston Walker? .. fine but replace him with who??? and on and on and on.

 

Now don't get me wrong .... I'm starting to like the Spiller pick ... but come on .... a potential super star who consists of 1/3 of the backfield plays .... give me a break .... we're too crowded back there. To make this pick a GREAT pick we needed a plan to move one of our other running backs for some type of value.