Is A.J. Smith a Good GM?

[JohnC]

Personally, I don't want Saban on the wall of fame. We rant about players who won't honor their contracts, and owners to cut players almost on a whim, voiding contracts. Yet a pass is given to a man who walked out, not once, but twice? Wilson did bury the hatchet once and brought Saban back, only to have him walk out again during the 1976 season. In fact, Saban's entire life was a monument to broken contracts. What amazes is that he was able to continue to get new jobs, even a baseball one for a while (he was friendly with Stienbrenner).

 

Lou Saban did himself in. Not to speak ill of the dead, and no pun intended, let dead dogs lie.

 

I understand your view on Saban and how he related to Wilson. Lou Saban was not a normal person. He was very strangely wired. If you look at his Buffalo Bill HC experience your view that he was disloyal to the owner makes a lot of sense. But if you look at his history of jobs and moving to new locations you would come to the conclusion that Lou Saban was an eccentric (odd) person. I understand your stance. Looking back at Saban's life he was without a doubt a traveling man who couldn't stay put. His normal is by no means the usual normal. Sometimes you just have to respect the uniqueness of the individual and accept something that can't be changed because the individual is incapable of changing.

[JohnC]

To the extent that he hires the GM, he's responsible. But there are many other people responsible for the Bills' failures this past decade John. Would you say that Bob Kraft was responsible for the Pats illegally videotaping, costing them a 1st rounder, cash, and tainting their SB wins?

 

I would not say that Bob Kraft was personally responsible for the videotaping in itself. But as the owner and the head of the organization he did accept responsibility and the punishment without contesting it.

 

With respect to your point that there are many people responsible for the Bills' failures this past decade I agree with that. That is blatantly and embarrasingly obvious. The organization reeks with incompetent people. There are so many fools in this organization that it is difficult to pin point any particular person to blame.

[BobbyC81]

I've seen more than one pre-training camp article picking the Chargers to go to the Super Bowl, which wouldn't be surprising given their 13-3 record in 2009.

 

AJ could ruin this with the way he's dealing with these stars.

[mpl6876]

I've seen more than one pre-training camp article picking the Chargers to go to the Super Bowl, which wouldn't be surprising given their 13-3 record in 2009.

 

AJ could ruin this with the way he's dealing with these stars.

 

The Chargers division is so weak that 8-8 is likely to win the division. I would be shocked if they didn't win the AFC West. I think there problems will arise once they play a quality playoff team.

 

Like A.J. or not he has produced a winning team.

[thewildrabbit]

Good post but the part in bold ... how do you know that?

I don't, pure speculation on my part, but then Drew Brees just won a SB with the Saints.

 

Imagine a Bills QB getting traded away and then takes that team to a SB, meanwhile the Chargers are still languishing in the playoffs. Lets not forget that Norv Turner also inherited a 14-2 team and hasn't gotten them back to that record yet, much less a SB.

 

 

Consider this, where would Marv Levy be if he hadn't hired Ted Marchibroda? In my view ole Ted is the main reason that the Bills late 80's-early 90's offense was so potent. Marv tried to run the wing-t at KC at his first NFL HC gig and was laughed out of town, he was also a special teams assistant at Washington under George Allen, he had no offensive coordinator background.

 

I think Marty Schottenheimer is a terrific head coach and a winner, its just that he has been snake bitten in the playoffs. I think a lot has to do with simply bad luck and perhaps the wrong chemistry for his assistant coaches.

 

I have no Idea why Ralph Wilson would hire a Dick Jauron / Chan Gailey and not hire a proven winner like Marty S, a man who really wanted the HC job in Buffalo this time around. Shoot the guy is even an ex Buffalo Bill player. If I'm an NFL owner I'd hire the guy in a heartbeat.

[Doc]

I don't, pure speculation on my part, but then Drew Brees just won a SB with the Saints.

 

Imagine a Bills QB getting traded away and then takes that team to a SB, meanwhile the Chargers are still languishing in the playoffs. Lets not forget that Norv Turner also inherited a 14-2 team and hasn't gotten them back to that record yet, much less a SB.

 

 

Consider this, where would Marv Levy be if he hadn't hired Ted Marchibroda? In my view ole Ted is the main reason that the Bills late 80's-early 90's offense was so potent. Marv tried to run the wing-t at KC at his first NFL HC gig and was laughed out of town, he was also a special teams assistant at Washington under George Allen, he had no offensive coordinator background.

 

I think Marty Schottenheimer is a terrific head coach and a winner, its just that he has been snake bitten in the playoffs. I think a lot has to do with simply bad luck and perhaps the wrong chemistry for his assistant coaches.

 

I have no Idea why Ralph Wilson would hire a Dick Jauron / Chan Gailey and not hire a proven winner like Marty S, a man who really wanted the HC job in Buffalo this time around. Shoot the guy is even an ex Buffalo Bill player. If I'm an NFL owner I'd hire the guy in a heartbeat.

While Turner hasn't gotten a 14-2 record, he's taken the Chargers farther than Marty did. In 2007, they made it to the AFCCG before blowing it against the Pats.

 

As for Marty and being the Bills' HC, multiple HC'ing openings have opened up since the end of 2006, and he hasn't taken any of them. That means he either doesn't want to be a HC again, or no one is offering him a job.

[mpl6876]

I don't, pure speculation on my part, but then Drew Brees just won a SB with the Saints.

 

Imagine a Bills QB getting traded away and then takes that team to a SB, meanwhile the Chargers are still languishing in the playoffs. Lets not forget that Norv Turner also inherited a 14-2 team and hasn't gotten them back to that record yet, much less a SB.

 

 

Consider this, where would Marv Levy be if he hadn't hired Ted Marchibroda? In my view ole Ted is the main reason that the Bills late 80's-early 90's offense was so potent. Marv tried to run the wing-t at KC at his first NFL HC gig and was laughed out of town, he was also a special teams assistant at Washington under George Allen, he had no offensive coordinator background.

I think Marty Schottenheimer is a terrific head coach and a winner, its just that he has been snake bitten in the playoffs. I think a lot has to do with simply bad luck and perhaps the wrong chemistry for his assistant coaches.

 

I have no Idea why Ralph Wilson would hire a Dick Jauron / Chan Gailey and not hire a proven winner like Marty S, a man who really wanted the HC job in Buffalo this time around. Shoot the guy is even an ex Buffalo Bill player. If I'm an NFL owner I'd hire the guy in a heartbeat.

 

Rabbit, I agree with you on Marty. In fact, I was hoping the Bills would be able to land him as our HC. Obviously, that didn't happen. I am still not sure if Marty didn't want to come here or if the Bills choose not to hire him. I think there was conflicting reports. Maybe someone can enlighten me as to what really happened with Marty and the Bills.

[thewildrabbit]

While Turner hasn't gotten a 14-2 record, he's taken the Chargers farther than Marty did. In 2007, they made it to the AFCCG before blowing it against the Pats.

 

As for Marty and being the Bills' HC, multiple HC'ing openings have opened up since the end of 2006, and he hasn't taken any of them. That means he either doesn't want to be a HC again, or no one is offering him a job.

Let me refer back to my point about the team Norv Turner inherited, you know the one that Marty built along with John Butler.

 

Norv Turner got the Chargers to the AFCCG going through the AFC West, but then look at the division last season, Bronco's without Shanny and a rookie HC, the Chiefs stunk with a rookie HC and then the Raiders with a guy who was interim HC in 08 and coached a full year last season, so a partial rookie HC.

 

I have my reservations about Norv Turner being anywhere near as good as Marty, just my opinion.

 

 

 

 

Marty S didn't want to coach again and stated so many times, even turned down several offers from what I've read, until the Bills opening.

 

He did want the Buffalo Bills job badly and openly stated so, RW said he wasn't comfortable with hiring him. I'm thinking it was because of his hiring of Buddy Nix, who was in San Diego at the time when Marty had a power struggle with AJ Smith.

[Hossage]

I am a troll.

 

You are a troll.

[Doc]

Let me refer back to my point about the team Norv Turner inherited, you know the one that Marty built along with John Butler.

 

Norv Turner got the Chargers to the AFCCG going through the AFC West, but then look at the division last season, Bronco's without Shanny and a rookie HC, the Chiefs stunk with a rookie HC and then the Raiders with a guy who was interim HC in 08 and coached a full year last season, so a partial rookie HC.

 

I have my reservations about Norv Turner being anywhere near as good as Marty, just my opinion.

 

 

 

 

Marty S didn't want to coach again and stated so many times, even turned down several offers from what I've read, until the Bills opening.

 

He did want the Buffalo Bills job badly and openly stated so, RW said he wasn't comfortable with hiring him. I'm thinking it was because of his hiring of Buddy Nix, who was in San Diego at the time when Marty had a power struggle with AJ Smith.

True Smith (mostly) built the team, but Turner got them further than Marty ever did. Marty was with them for 5 years and they made the playoffs twice during that time (missing the playoffs in between those years), failing to win a game each time. Since Turner took over, it's been 3 straight playoff seasons and 3 playoff wins. And you could be right about Marty and Nix, but I still have to wonder why no one else offered him a HC'ing job in the 4 years he's been out of it?

[sharper802]

Talent evaluation A-

Coaching evaluation C-

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Personally, I don't want Saban on the wall of fame. We rant about players who won't honor their contracts, and owners to cut players almost on a whim, voiding contracts. Yet a pass is given to a man who walked out, not once, but twice? Wilson did bury the hatchet once and brought Saban back, only to have him walk out again during the 1976 season. In fact, Saban's entire life was a monument to broken contracts. What amazes is that he was able to continue to get new jobs, even a baseball one for a while (he was friendly with Stienbrenner).

I understand your view on Saban and how he related to Wilson. Lou Saban was not a normal person. He was very strangely wired. If you look at his Buffalo Bill HC experience your view that he was disloyal to the owner makes a lot of sense. But if you look at his history of jobs and moving to new locations you would come to the conclusion that Lou Saban was an eccentric (odd) person. I understand your stance. Looking back at Saban's life he was without a doubt a traveling man who couldn't stay put. His normal is by no means the usual normal. Sometimes you just have to respect the uniqueness of the individual and accept something that can't be changed because the individual is incapable of changing.

This discussion cannot take place without acknowledging that Lou Saban delivered two AFL Championships to Ralph Wilson.

 

Consider also that head coaches back then were often de facto GMs too, heavily involved with drafting, trades, free agents, and even negotiating contracts.

 

Saban won two league championships for the Buffalo Bills and their owner. He doesn't deserve to be on the Wall?

[mpl6876]

True Smith (mostly) built the team, but Turner got them further than Marty ever did. Marty was with them for 5 years and they made the playoffs twice during that time (missing the playoffs in between those years), failing to win a game each time. Since Turner took over, it's been 3 straight playoff seasons and 3 playoff wins. And you could be right about Marty and Nix, but I still have to wonder why no one else offered him a HC'ing job in the 4 years he's been out of it?

 

I am on the record (i think) as saying I wanted Marty to be the Bills head coach. I was wondering if you think he would have been a good fit. Do you think it would have been a more popular hire than Gailey? The one thing I always liked about him is that he seems to kick ass and take names. A tough coach who seemed to motivate his players. A lot like what I am hearing Galiey is doing.

[thewildrabbit]

True Smith (mostly) built the team, but Turner got them further than Marty ever did. Marty was with them for 5 years and they made the playoffs twice during that time (missing the playoffs in between those years), failing to win a game each time. Since Turner took over, it's been 3 straight playoff seasons and 3 playoff wins. And you could be right about Marty and Nix, but I still have to wonder why no one else offered him a HC'ing job in the 4 years he's been out of it?

Marty had just gotten Drew Brees to start playing well before he was fired, Brees openly stated that Marty benching him made him evaluate himself and made him a better player.

 

Think of that Charger offense if Brees had stayed in SD, or even if he hadn't and Rivers played for Martys son who is the OC of the Jets. My take is they could have conceivably won a SB by now.

 

 

Anyway, Turner didn't build anything from what I see, except open up the passing game with Rivers. The running game isn't anywhere close to the way it was under Marty, O line isn't as good, the defense isn't as good.

 

Like I said, look at the teams Turner faced in the division last season as all three had new coaches learning to do their jobs. I would have been surprised if the Chargers hadn't gone to the playoffs. That road to the SB might start getting tougher now as these new head coaches gain experience.

 

 

 

 

 

I stated in that post that Marty had several job offers after getting fired in SD and turned them all down because he was enjoying his retirement(more then likely still upset at losing his chance with SD after posting a 14-2 record), plus he was still getting paid by the Chargers.

 

This year he must have regained interest in becoming a head coach again because he openly stated he wanted the Buffalo job.

 

 

 

To the OP of this thread, AJ Smith is a great talent evaluator in the mold of Bill Polian, but he is unlike Bill Polian as a GM. Like some head coaches that should have stayed assistants as they overshot their abilities, AJ Smith should be VP / director of scouting and let someone who is more even tempered be the GM. I don't see his teams winning a SB, just my take.

[thewildrabbit]

I am on the record (i think) as saying I wanted Marty to be the Bills head coach. I was wondering if you think he would have been a good fit. Do you think it would have been a more popular hire than Gailey? The one thing I always liked about him is that he seems to kick ass and take names. A tough coach who seemed to motivate his players. A lot like what I am hearing Galiey is doing.

Gailey knows how to talk the talk, lets see if he can walk the walk...

 

 

Should the Bills go 3-13 or worse this season it just might open up the door again for Marty or Cowher, at least I hope it will.

[Thurman#1]

I don't, pure speculation on my part, but then Drew Brees just won a SB with the Saints.

 

Imagine a Bills QB getting traded away and then takes that team to a SB, meanwhile the Chargers are still languishing in the playoffs. Lets not forget that Norv Turner also inherited a 14-2 team and hasn't gotten them back to that record yet, much less a SB.

 

 

Consider this, where would Marv Levy be if he hadn't hired Ted Marchibroda? In my view ole Ted is the main reason that the Bills late 80's-early 90's offense was so potent. Marv tried to run the wing-t at KC at his first NFL HC gig and was laughed out of town, he was also a special teams assistant at Washington under George Allen, he had no offensive coordinator background.

 

I think Marty Schottenheimer is a terrific head coach and a winner, its just that he has been snake bitten in the playoffs. I think a lot has to do with simply bad luck and perhaps the wrong chemistry for his assistant coaches.

 

I have no Idea why Ralph Wilson would hire a Dick Jauron / Chan Gailey and not hire a proven winner like Marty S, a man who really wanted the HC job in Buffalo this time around. Shoot the guy is even an ex Buffalo Bill player. If I'm an NFL owner I'd hire the guy in a heartbeat.

 

 

 

I wanted Marty Schottenheimer bad this last time around. About his record in the playoffs, Tim Graham said it best in an article he wrote at the time saying that a lot of the reason for Marty's playoff losses is that he took to the playoffs teams with personnel that had no business being in the playoffs. That's how it has seemed to me.

[Thurman#1]

Gailey knows how to talk the talk, lets see if he can walk the walk...

 

 

Should the Bills go 3-13 or worse this season it just might open up the door again for Marty or Cowher, at least I hope it will.

 

 

 

Doubt it. Ralph knows we're rebuilding. Gailey has three years, unless he somehow manages to lose the team. I can't see that happening.

[Thurman#1]

As for the A.J. stuff, thanks all. Good stuff from everyone.

[JohnC]

He did want the Buffalo Bills job badly and openly stated so, RW said he wasn't comfortable with hiring him. I'm thinking it was because of his hiring of Buddy Nix, who was in San Diego at the time when Marty had a power struggle with AJ Smith.

 

There were stories that Marty desperately wanted the Bills job. One of the scenarios was that Marty would come in as the HC and hire his son as an OC. In that scenario the coach's son would be the next HC when he left. The accounts that I read indicated that the owner wasn't comforatable with Marty and clearly didn't want him. That was the end of the story. From what I understand in San Diego Marty and Nix had an excellent relationship and mutual respect.

 

Everyone on this board knows I have little respect for our goofy owner. In this case I agree with the owner. He wasn't comfortable hiring a HC who is known for his controlling nature. The owner acted on his instincts that with Marty there is always going to be organizational tug of war issues. Based on that sound reasoning the owner made the right decision.

 

In addition, even though Nix had a good relationship with Marty in San Diego that doesn't necessarilly mean that he as a GM would have a good working relationship with him in Buffalo. Nix rather quickly hired Chan Gailey. They seem, on the surface, to have a good working relationship. Not bringing in Marty with his heavy handed style was the right thing to do.

[thewildrabbit]

Doubt it. Ralph knows we're rebuilding. Gailey has three years, unless he somehow manages to lose the team. I can't see that happening.

 

If the fans wise up and stop paying for as inferior product, the stadium stops selling out, fans start wearing bags on their heads...who knows.

 

I'm pretty sure Cam Cameron had a 3-5 year plan in Miami before his team went 15-1