What if most terrorists were Christians?

[Thurman's Helmet]

Imagine if all the terrorist attacks over the last 20 years or so were perpetrated by Hardcore Fanatical Right Wing Christian groups?

 

Would the left here be crying for tolerance and understanding about ALL Christians or would they be out for blood like they are now in regards to any malaise by the Catholic Church?

[DC Tom]

Imagine if all the terrorist attacks over the last 20 years or so were perpetrated by Hardcore Fanatical Right Wing Christian groups?

 

Would the left here be crying for tolerance and understanding about ALL Christians or would they be out for blood like they are now in regards to any malaise by the Catholic Church?

144196[/snapback]

 

What a stupid friggin' post.

[blzrul]

WTF?! Rough night last night?

 

Here's a news flash for you: no-one, right, left or center, likes terrorists of ANY stripe.

 

Duh.

[Mickey]

Imagine if all the terrorist attacks over the last 20 years or so were perpetrated by Hardcore Fanatical Right Wing Christian groups?

 

Would the left here be crying for tolerance and understanding about ALL Christians or would they be out for blood like they are now in regards to any malaise by the Catholic Church?

144196[/snapback]

I don't know, we seemed to keep our heads after Oklahoma City and the Branch Davidian nut cases. Now imagine if that bombing or that shooting had been done by gay environmentalists. Homosexuality would be punishable by death by now if that had happened.

 

Just when you think we might be able to get along and avoid a virtual civil war, some idiot comes up with some moronic and divisive drivel like this. Of course, if we respond in kind then we will be treated with all sorts of posts about how hateful and vitriolic the left is.

 

In an effort to keep people like you from destroying what little civil debate that manages to survive here, let me help you with some links that to sites where your viewpoints might find a more receptive audience:

 

Westboro Baptist Church, Topeka, Kansas

Stormfront

Bob Jones University

Kinsman Redeemer Ministries

Christian Separatist Church Society

Council of Conservative Citizens You'll really like these guys whose site includes brilliant observations like:

 

"Both the Negroes and their liberal White and Jewish admirers, for having labored tirelessly to boost this race [blacks] into a position of political power all out of proportion with its numbers and contributions to society, have long recognized one simple if media-overlooked fact: Black-on-White rape, as a political act, has always been part of the world view of radicals and Communists."

 

Since you are assuming the absolute worst about those on the other side of the political spectrum and apparently believing the worst things said about them by the most partisan of critics, allow me the pleasure of treating you the same way. How does it feel bigot boy?

[blzrul]

I don't know, we seemed to keep our heads after Oklahoma City and the Branch Davidian nut cases.  Now imagine if that bombing or that shooting had been done by gay environmentalists.  Homosexuality would be punishable by death by now if that had happened.

 

Just when you think we might be able to get along and avoid a virtual civil war, some idiot comes up with some moronic and divisive drivel like this.  Of course, if we respond in kind then we will be treated with all sorts of posts about how hateful and vitriolic the left is. 

 

In an effort to keep people like you from destroying what little civil debate that manages to survive here, let me help you with some links that to sites where your viewpoints might find a more receptive audience:

 

Westboro Baptist Church, Topeka, Kansas

Stormfront

Bob Jones University

Kinsman Redeemer Ministries

Christian Separatist Church Society

Council of Conservative Citizens You'll really like these guys whose site includes brilliant observations like:

 

"Both the Negroes and their liberal White and Jewish admirers, for having labored tirelessly to boost this race [blacks] into a position of political power all out of proportion with its numbers and contributions to society, have long recognized one simple if media-overlooked fact: Black-on-White rape, as a political act, has always been part of the world view of radicals and Communists."

 

Since you are assuming the absolute worst about those on the other side of the political spectrum and apparently believing the worst things said about them by the most partisan of critics, allow me the pleasure of treating you the same way.  How does it feel bigot boy?

144349[/snapback]

 

You da MAN!

[aussiew]

Imagine if all the terrorist attacks over the last 20 years or so were perpetrated by Hardcore Fanatical Right Wing Christian groups?

 

Sounds like my history books.

[OGTEleven]

I don't know, we seemed to keep our heads after Oklahoma City and the Branch Davidian nut cases. 

144349[/snapback]

 

 

Although I agree with pretty much the rest of your post how did you manage to label the Branch Davidians as terrorists?

 

Whackoes, maybe. Whackoes that deserved to die and have their children killed? Nope.

 

Terrorists? That's the first time I've heard that.

 

BTW, during and after the Waco standoff there was plenty of parody and over generalization going on (from both "right" and "left" I might add). If some of the same stuff was going on now against Islam, the NYT editorial board would be having a meltdown.

[DC Tom]

Christian Separatist Church Society

144349[/snapback]

 

Holy sh--. Where the hell did you find that site?

 

I just read the article where they claim that Jews ran the Nazi concentration camps to kill white Christians. Unreal...

[Mickey]

Holy sh--.  Where the hell did you find that site? 

 

I just read the article where they claim that Jews ran the Nazi concentration camps to kill white Christians.  Unreal... 

144850[/snapback]

It is even worse than that Tom, these guys are actually part of a movement generally known as the "Christian Identity" movement. I just did a search on "hate crimes" and I hit on a watchdog site that had a US map showing the locations of different types of hate groups with links to sites.

 

Freaks.

[blzrul]

Although I agree with pretty much the rest of your post how did you manage to label the Branch Davidians as terrorists?

 

Whackoes, maybe.  Whackoes that deserved to die and have their children killed?  Nope.

 

Terrorists?  That's the first time I've heard that. 

 

BTW, during and after the Waco standoff there was plenty of parody and over generalization going on (from both "right" and "left" I might add).  If some of the same stuff was going on now against Islam, the NYT editorial board would be having a meltdown.

144825[/snapback]

Uh excuse me, they killed for government agents. What's the difference between them and the insurgents in Fallujah who put a populace at risk? Are you saying that the US military is therefore responsible for the deaths of the innocents AS OPPOSED TO THE PEOPLE WHO INITIATED THE VIOLENCE?

[OGTEleven]

Uh excuse me, they killed for government agents.  What's the difference between them and the insurgents in Fallujah who put a populace at risk?  Are you saying that the US military is therefore responsible for the deaths of the innocents AS OPPOSED TO THE PEOPLE WHO INITIATED THE VIOLENCE?

145341[/snapback]

Unless I'm mistaken, in general, terrorists tend to (outwardly) plan and perpetrate violence against others. I'm not aware of the BD's setting off any car bombs, etc. Enlighten me if I missed something.

 

I never said they were a bunch of nice people. I never even said they weren't murderers. I simply questioned Mickey's classification of them as terrorists. I don't know of any group classified as terrorists based solely on killing someone who was knocking on their door. (Let me repeat it again because I'm sure you still don't get it ----- I am in no way defending what they did, I just don't think of them as terrorists.)

[UConn James]

Unless I'm mistaken, in general, terrorists tend to (outwardly) plan and perpetrate violence against others.  I'm not aware of the BD's setting off any car bombs, etc.  Enlighten me if I missed something.

 

I never said they were a bunch of nice people.  I never even said they weren't murderers.  I simply questioned Mickey's classification of them as terrorists.  I don't know of any group classified as terrorists based solely on killing someone who was knocking on their door.  (Let me repeat it again because I'm sure you still don't get it -----  I am in no way defending what they did, I just don't think of them as terrorists.)

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I get the distinction you're trying to draw. I guess it all depends on what your definition of a "terrorist" is. Is it to simply strike fear in the hearts of the general populace? To kill a set number of people (like a serial killer must kill three people with a prolonged rest period b/w)? An attempt to kill gov't agents or advocacy to overthrow said gov't?

 

We'll probably never know exactly what the BDs were going to do. I fervantly support logical gun rights. But those people weren't just interested in protecting themselves from intruders; they were seriously up to no good and acted at the behest of one crazy MFer. I truly think at the very least it would have been a bank robbery to suuport their activities and at the worst, a Columbine-style takeover of an entire town to prove some kind of 'point'. They weren't ever terrorists, as such, but it's 99.9999 percent they would have been.

[DC Tom]

I get the distinction you're trying to draw. I guess it all depends on what your definition of a "terrorist" is.

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Let me further muddy the waters, too.

 

One of the essential qualities of terrorists and terrorism is the maintenance of initiative: terrorists/guerillas/insurgents (they're essentally all interrelated) actively prosecute campaigns in a way that consistently (almost universally) allows them to choose the time, place, and manner of a battle or operation.

 

Given THAT little item...were the Branch Davidians terrorists or not?

[blzrul]

Let me further muddy the waters, too.

 

One of the essential qualities of terrorists and terrorism is the maintenance of initiative: terrorists/guerillas/insurgents (they're essentally all interrelated) actively prosecute campaigns in a way that consistently (almost universally) allows them to choose the time, place, and manner of a battle or operation. 

 

Given THAT little item...were the Branch Davidians terrorists or not? 

145400[/snapback]

One could argue that given the cache of weapons they had, and had their little plot not been foiled they could very well have become terrorists. I don't see who they'd terrorize though - going on the offensive against society seems out of character for a cult, which generally just wants to be let alone.

 

Considering the weapons they had and the "bunker bus" it appears as if they were settled into a defensive position. Once they performed a preemptive strike that defensive position became a reality.

 

So the question then becomes, did they plan the strike therefore choosing the time, place and manner of operation? It seems silly to me that they'd do so, but then again religious fanatics or cultists don't always make a lot of sense to normal people.

 

These people are no different that those pathetic followers of Jim Jones - the deaths are on the head of the "leader", not the government or anyone else. Because THAT is what the leaders probably had in mind all along in one way, shape or form. The ultimate homage.

[DC Tom]

I don't see who they'd terrorize though - going on the offensive against society seems out of character for a cult, which generally just wants to be let alone.

 

145464[/snapback]

 

Two words: Charles Manson.

 

Two more words: Rajneesh cultists. Little known fact: the Rajneesh compound in Oregon had one of the best medical labs in the state, which they used to develop biological weapons...which they actually used in the late 80s. (The short version: they tried to throw county elections by making sure the electorate was too ill to vote by infecting salad bars with salmonella. Their test run worked in that it sickened about a thousand people...but they discovered it was a poor way of manipulating an election.)

 

I could probably think of more examples if I were so inclined...as I could think of counter-examples (Jonestown, as you mentioned, and Heaven's Gate for starters). But cults "generally just wanting to be left alone" isn't a generalization you can rely on.

 

Of course, it might also depend on your definition of "cult"...it's not too hard to make the argument that the Democratic and Republican parties are cults (particularly if you read some of the posts here.) Hell, I could make a very strong argument that the Taliban and al Qaeda were cults...

[Britbillsfan]

Another nice little cult is Aum Shinrikyo, the lunatics who used Sarin on the Tokyo underground system. Definitely a terrorist group and a cult.

 

The Branch Davidians were certainly nasty pieces of work. Koresh used force to gain control of the cult (shooting the former leader - after a mistrial he was able to establish control). It was a doomsday cult under Koresh, with the brutal use of violence against the children there widely reported from those who left the cult.

 

IMHO they were not terrorists as such, but most likely would have tried something to provoke the authorities further to get their doomsday scenario running, and that could quite easily have been use of terror on the local populace.

[blzrul]

Two words: Charles Manson.

 

Two more words: Rajneesh cultists.  Little known fact: the Rajneesh compound in Oregon had one of the best medical labs in the state, which they used to develop biological weapons...which they actually used in the late 80s.  (The short version: they tried to throw county elections by making sure the electorate was too ill to vote by infecting salad bars with salmonella.  Their test run worked in that it sickened about a thousand people...but they discovered it was a poor way of manipulating an election.) 

 

I could probably think of more examples if I were so inclined...as I could think of counter-examples (Jonestown, as you mentioned, and Heaven's Gate for starters).  But cults "generally just wanting to be left alone" isn't a generalization you can rely on.

 

Of course, it might also depend on your definition of "cult"...it's not too hard to make the argument that the Democratic and Republican parties are cults (particularly if you read some of the posts here.)  Hell, I could make a very strong argument that the Taliban and al Qaeda were cults...

145476[/snapback]

 

I thought of our old buddy the Bhagwan last night after casting about in my mind for more cults. Remember what they found in that compound after the raid? I remember seeing the first 60 Minutes segment on them in their early days and it frightened me, but many people didn't take them seriously at all. The idea of using bioterror in the 70's to begin to take over the system was brilliant. Of course voter fraud, fixing and intimidation is less invasion and proven to be more effective....

 

So if the Koreshis may have been terrorists who just hadn't finalized their evil plan, we owe our government a great big thanks for saving our ass instead of a load of crap because the Koreshis wouldn't free their children and therefore let them be killed. I am sure that the people who were there and involved in the thing don't go a moment without feeling badly over that; just as I'm sure had Koresh lived he would have absolved himself from all responsibility.

[blzrul]

Come to think of the original question, what if most terrorists were Christians, it occurs to me that up until fairly recently, they WERE.

 

Basque separatists....the IRA...SDS...The Weathermen....all sorts of nutso groups that blow stuff up, and of course let's not forget McVeigh, the wackos who blow up clinics and all that.

 

Probably taken together they would either outnumber or equal the Muslim wackos.

 

So there you go.

[DC Tom]

Come to think of the original question, what if most terrorists were Christians, it occurs to me that up until fairly recently, they WERE.

 

Basque separatists....the IRA...SDS...The Weathermen....all sorts of nutso groups that blow stuff up, and of course let's not forget McVeigh, the wackos who blow up clinics and all that.

 

Probably taken together they would either outnumber or equal the Muslim wackos.

 

So there you go.

146073[/snapback]

 

I might be wrong, but most of those groups were Marxist, I believe...or at least Marxist-supported. It might be more accurate to characterize them as having Christian roots or heritage.

[blzrul]

I might be wrong, but most of those groups were Marxist, I believe...or at least Marxist-supported.  It might be more accurate to characterize them as having Christian roots or heritage.

146337[/snapback]

The IRA is definitely Christian. The Weathermen - may have been Marxist but as Americans were probably Christian in name at least. Same with SDS.

 

And let's not forget those folks in South America; they have no problem blowing each other to kingdom come but many still attend Mass.

 

I guess it's also depending on how one defines "Christian". There are an awfully lot of people who claim to be Christians who are going to have a BIG surprise when their time comes...but I would venture to guess that most Westerners at least nominally consider themselves Christians.